Changes to the Driver Licencing System Mega Thread

Seth Brundle

from http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/motors/2007/1024/1193158811124.html

Judge rules on learner drivers
Ronan McGreevy
A District Court judge has said he intends to disqualify provisional licence holders who drive on the road without a qualified driver or without L-plates, from the start of next year.

Judge Murrough Connellan indicated his intentions at two separate District Court sittings in the past month. Judge Connellan said such practices showed a "total disregard for the purpose of the driving test and driving licence".

He made his remarks at Kildare District Court when he fined a provisional driver €150 for driving unaccompanied. He made similar remarks at Bray District Court, when he said there was any number of youths driving around on provisional licences with a string of offences.

The law governing provisional drivers is the Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations, 1999, which forms part of the Road Traffic Act.
It states that all provisional drivers on their first, second and subsequent licences must drive accompanied by a qualified driver, and must display L-plates, though no specific penalties are mentioned. It was thrown into some confusion last year, when another district court judge, Gerard Haughton, threw out several offences relating to driving unaccompanied and the display of L-plates.

According to Judge Haughton, Article 20 is drafted in such a way that it does not make either of the charges brought against the provisional licence holder offences, although he did concede that such acts render a provisional licence invalid, and could have insurance consequences.
Some fellow-judges followed suit by dismissing similar cases.

The issue of the law concerning learner drivers is set to be addressed in detail when the Government unveils its new five-year Road Safety strategy tomorrow.

It is likely to recommend sweeping changes to the licensing system for learner drivers, with the replacement of the provisional licence with a learners' permit, which will end the anomaly of second provisional licence holders being able to drive unaccompanied.

There are likely to be compulsory lessons for learner drivers, and all driving instructors will be put on a statutory basis, and will be monitored by the Government.

Traditionally, because of the huge number of provisional drivers, gardaí have been reluctant to bring prosecutions, because of fears that such cases would clog up the courts.

Long waiting lists for the driving test was another factor which has often been cited as a reason why so few prosecutions are brought, despite the widespread flouting of the law.

Last year the Courts Service revealed that driving unaccompanied and the non-display of L-plates were not even in the top 3,000 cases brought before the courts in a given year. The chief executive of the Road Safety Authority Noel Brett, said there was a pattern emerging of judges taking a harder line on motoring offences.

"Clearly justices are sick of seeing some of the stuff they have to deal with in terms of motoring offences. The provisional licensing regime is in place for learner drivers for a practical purpose, and we need more people to comply with it."

Mr Brett said waiting lists for driving tests are now down to 20 weeks, and will be down to 10 weeks by next February, leaving less excuse for provisional licence holders not to do their test.

AXA Ireland chief executive John O'Neill said Ireland is outside the norm in other European countries in not having draconian penalties for learner drivers who break the law. "We need to protect young people against themselves. I would be very pleased to see the judiciary apply the laws in the state.

"It is not that we need new legislation, we need the enforcement of the existing laws of the road, and we would support the judge wholeheartedly, because the enforcement of this particular law will save lives," he said.

AA public affairs spokesman Conor Faughnan said the provisional licence system was an "utterly unworkable shambles", but he said the new road safety strategy and the greatly reduced waiting times for the driving test should make the law easier to implement.

© 2007 The Irish Times

Wishbone Ash

It states that all provisional drivers on their first, second and subsequent licences must drive accompanied by a qualified driver,

That should read (in the case of category first, third and subsequent!

end the anomaly of second provisional licence holders being able to drive unaccompanied

Although not generally known, driving unaccompanied on a second provisional is only permitted in category B vehicles. One may not drive unaccompanied at any time in other categories (except in motorcycles and tractors).

Seth Brundle

That is expected to change under the new permit system but presumably won't affect those currently on a 2nd (category provisional.

Wishbone Ash

kbannon wrote: »

That is expected to change under the new permit system but presumably won't affect those currently on a 2nd (category provisional.

Will it affect those operating under the 12/08/85 rule?

jhegarty

Its all lots of bit talk if you ask me....(i know no one did )

pa990

What day is the RSA due to make an announcement, and will it be on their website to read on that day ?

and if it is announced today (five-year Road Safety strategy).. when and where can i find it

pa990

whoops

all updated on rsa.ie

the_syco

Mr Brett said waiting lists for driving tests are now down to 20 weeks, and will be down to 10 weeks by next February, leaving less excuse for provisional licence holders not to do their test.

Everywhere, or in just some places? As at the moment, I'll be waiting a f**k more than 30. Ah, sure, I'm only waiting 2 weeks so far, with no letter saying they've took my payment (my bank says they did, though)...

Tigger

http://www.rsa.ie/Home/upload/File/Introduction%20of%20Learner%20Permit%20and%20Changes%20to%20the%20Driver%20Licensing%20System%20final%20confirmed.doc



i've looked it up ad the new rules state that as of 30-10-07 you must be accompanied and it's a penal offence not to be

comments?questions?

links coming
:mad:



Q: When does this new rule come into effect?

A: This is coming into effect as and from 30 October 2007.


Q: I am currently on a second (provisional licence) learner permit for driving a car, and was not required to be accompanied heretofore with this (provisional licence) learner permit. Must I now be accompanied?

A: Yes, you must be accompanied at all times when driving with a (provisional licence) learner permit for a car.

Lawless_Samurai

Crap :mad::mad::mad:

Wishbone Ash

Threads Merged.

DonJose

Lawless_Samurai wrote: »

Crap :mad::mad::mad:

About time you mean :D:D

Dapos

How can they just pop up a date. give us 4 days notice. What about all the people who are waiting for the test. mine was delayed 3 months because the tallaght centre closed down and they never told me. I'm off the road now for a month basically that is if i pass my test!

Tigger

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Threads Merged.

donno why? i wanted it to be visable with the little prieview thingy for anyone who it would affect
now its just gonna say that un-accompanied drivers will be prosecuted;
to which posters on second provos will think"oh that dosen't affect me"

i'm not complaining it dosen't affect me i just thought that all the 2nd provisional holders on google after the news a few minutes ago might likre somewhere to go any discuss what is gonna be a huge pain for a lot of people

Tigger

Dapos wrote: »

How can they just pop up a date. give us 4 days notice. What about all the people who are waiting for the test. mine was delayed 3 months because the tallaght centre closed down and they never told me. I'm off the road now for a month basically that is if i pass my test!

and how nervous are you gonna be doing the test now
i did my test 4oo years ago an failed got back in my car and drove back to work

i know of a lot of people in thge west of ireland whoare gonna either have to take down their l plates and ignotre this rule or wal a long way to work cos there is no public transport here

Wishbone Ash

Changes to the Driver Licensing System announced on 25 October 2007

In this document you will find information about changes to the driver licensing regime. These changes affect learner drivers and recognise the fact that learner drivers are a vulnerable group of road users. The changes also serve to emphasise the importance of the learning phase for drivers, one element of this is the replacement of provisional licences with learner permits. The changes also highlight the important role played by the driver who accompanies a learner driver.

Over time the intention is to expand the range of conditions applying to a learner permit and to develop a graduated licensing system where there will be a number of different restrictions/conditions applying at different stages. These restrictions will apply while driving with a learner permit and in the initial years of driving with a full driving licence.

Specific details about each of the current changes together with questions and answers on the impact of each change are set out below.


• Provisional licences are being replaced by learner permits to emphasise the fact that the holder is a probationary driver and is learning to drive. Existing provisional licences will continue in force until their expiry date. On renewal the person will be issued with a learner permit.


Q: When will learner permits start to issue?

A: Learner permits will issue as and from 30 October 2007.


Q: Does the learner permit system apply to all driving licence categories?

A: Yes, the learner permit system will apply to all licence categories.


Q: Is there any change to the period of validity or the fee for a learner permit compared to that for a provisional licence?

A: No, the duration and fee remain the same as applied to provisional licences.


Q: Are there any changes to apply under the learner permit system?

A: A number of changes detailed below are being introduced for drivers with a learner permit. These are also being applied to drivers with a current provisional licence.





• The holder of category B (Car) learner permit (provisional licence) must be accompanied by and under the supervision of a qualified person at all times. This change removes an exemption that, up to now, allowed a person on a second provisional licence to drive unaccompanied. To drive unaccompanied will be a penal offence and the person will be subject to prosecution.

Q: When does this new rule come into effect?

A: This is coming into effect as and from 30 October 2007.


Q: I am currently on a second (provisional licence) learner permit for driving a car, and was not required to be accompanied heretofore with this (provisional licence) learner permit. Must I now be accompanied?

A: Yes, you must be accompanied at all times when driving with a (provisional licence) learner permit for a car.


Q: I have passed the driving test in a vehicle with an automatic transmission and now hold a (provisional licence) learner permit for driving a car with a manual transmission, can I drive this car unaccompanied.

A: No, you must be accompanied by a qualified person until such time as you pass the driving test for a manual transmission car.


Q: In respect of which licence categories is a person who holds a (provisional licence) learner permit required to be accompanied by a qualified person?

A: Drivers with a (provisional licence) learner permit for vehicles of category B, C1, C, D1, D, EB, EC1, EC, ED1 or ED, (Cars, Trucks, Buses and Articulated Vehicles) must be accompanied by and under the supervision of a qualified person.


• An accompanying qualified person must hold a full driving licence for the vehicle category for at least two years. It will be a penal offence for the driver not to be accompanied by a qualified person so licenced to drive.

Q. When is this change coming into effect?

A. This change will apply as and from 30 October 2007.


Q: If I am a learner driver driving a car and the accompanying person has held a driving licence for two years in respect of a motorcycle, or a tractor/work vehicle, can this person act as an accompanying qualified person?

A: No, the accompanying qualified person must hold a driving licence for two years for the category of vehicle you are driving.



Q: If a person has passed a driving test to drive the vehicle category, can this person act as an accompanying qualified person?

A: No.


Q: If a person has held a full driving licence for an automatic vehicle for two years, may this person act as the accompanying person?

A: Yes, but only if the learner driver is driving an automatic transmission vehicle in the same category. If s/he is driving a manual transmission vehicle, the accompanying qualified person has to hold a full driving licence for at least two years for a manual transmission vehicle.


Q: If I have a learner permit (provisional licence) in category C1 (small truck) can I be accompanied by a person who holds a full driving licence for category B for two years and for category C1 for one year?

A: No, the accompanying qualified person must hold a full driving licence for two
years in respect of the vehicle category which you wish to drive, in this case
category C1.


Q: If the accompanying driver has heId his / her driving licence since six years ago but has been disqualified for 2 of the last 3 years, may he /she act as an accompanying driver?

A: No, the accompanying qualified person, at the time you are driving, must hold a full driving licence for two years in respect of the vehicle category which you wish to drive. He/she must not have been disqualified for any period of the previous two years.



• The carrying of a passenger by a motorcyclist with a (provisional licence) learner permit is a penal offence.


Q. When is this change coming into effect?

A. This change will apply as and from 30 October 2007.


Q: Can I carry a passenger on any motorcycle category for which I hold a learner permit (provisional licence) ?

A: No, you must have a full driving licence for the motorcycle in order to be able to carry a passenger.


Q: Can I carry a passenger on a category A motorcycle for which I hold a learner permit/ provisional licence if I have a full driving licence for category A1?

A: No.


Q: If I pass the motorcycle driving test, can I carry a passenger?

A: No, you must first exchange your certificate of competency (driving test pass certificate) for a full driving licence to be able to carry a passenger.



• It is a penal offence for a holder of a category W (Tractor/Works vehicle) learner permit (provisional licence) to carry a passenger unless the vehicle is constructed or adapted to carry a passenger and the passenger is a qualified person, ie. a person who holds a full driving licence for the vehicle category for at least two years.


Q. When is this change coming into effect?

A. This change will apply as and from 30 October 2007.


Q: When can I carry a passenger?

A: When the passenger holds a driving licence for the vehicle category for at least two years, and where the vehicle is constructed or adapted to carry a passenger.


Q: Can I carry a passenger who is a qualified person if there is no passenger seat?

A: No, the vehicle must be constructed/ adapted for the carriage of a passenger.



• It is a penal offence for the holder of a learner permit (provisional licence) in respect of any licence category to carry in the vehicle any passenger for reward.

Q. When is this change coming into effect?

A. This change will apply as and from 30 October 2007.

Q: Can I carry a passenger for reward in the course of my employment?

A: No, you may not do so while driving under a learner permit (provisional licence).

Q: If I have a category D1 learner permit (provisional licence) to drive a minibus, can I carry a passenger for reward?

A: No, you may not do so while driving under a learner permit (provisional licence).


• It is a penal offence for the holder of a learner permit (provisional licence) for vehicles of category B, C1, C, D1, D, EB, EC1, EC, ED1 or ED, to drive such a vehicle unless there are displayed on the vehicle rectangular plates or signs bearing the letter “L” not less than 15 centimetres high in red on a white ground, in clearly visible vertical positions to the front and rear of the vehicle.


Q. When is this change coming into effect?

A. This change will apply as and from 30 October 2007.


Q: If I have a category B full driving licence and a learner permit for category C (truck) or category D1 (minibus) must I display L plates?

A: Yes, you must display L plates on the truck or minibus if driving on a learner permit.



• It will be a penal offence for the holder of a learner permit (provisional licence) for vehicles of category B, C1, C, D1 or D, to drive such a vehicle while the vehicle is drawing a trailer.


Q: If I have a category B driving licence and a learner permit for category C1 (small truck) can I draw a trailer?

A: No, you may not drive a truck while drawing a trailer if you hold a learner permit (provisional licence) for a truck. You must have the trailer entitlement for the category on the learner permit (provisional licence) in order to draw a trailer.

• Learner Motorcyclist to display L plates on a high visibility tabard.

Q: From what date will motorcyclists have to display L plates on a high visibility tabard?

A: It takes effect as and from 1 December 2007.


Q: Which learner motorcyclists are required to display L plates on a high visibility tabard?

A: All persons with a learner permit (provisional licence) for category A, A1, or M, must when driving such a vehicle display a yellow fluorescent tabard bearing the letter ‘L’ not less than 15 centimetres high in red on a white ground, in clearly visible vertical positions worn over the chest clothing. The ‘L’ plates are to be to the front and rear of the person’s torso. It will be a penal offence not to so display L plates.

• A person who is a first time holder of a learner permit (provisional licence) cannot take a driving test for a six month period after the commencement date of the permit (provisional licence).


Q. When is this change coming into effect?

A. This change will apply to driving test applicants with an appointment date for a test on or after 1 December 2007 and who hold a learner permit (provisional licence) for less than six months. At this point driving tests are scheduled up to this date and the change will not affect existing appointment holders.


Q: Does the change apply to all licence categories?

A: Yes, It applies to all licence categories.


Q: Why is the six month limitation being applied?

A: The purpose of the provisional licence/learner permit is to allow a learner driver to gain experience of driving. Research shows that the longer a learner is supervised while driving, the less likely s/he is to be involved in an accident. For this reason the six months limitation is being applied.


Q: I hold a first learner permit (provisional licence ) for less than six months. I have an appointment already arranged for a driving test. Can I take the test?

A: Yes, the change is being introduced with effect from 1 December 2007 and should not affect existing appointments for driving tests.

TwoShedsJackson

Glad I learnt to drive and passed my test in the last year so However this change will mean fu<k-all unless the Gardai actually enforce it.

It's always been illegal to drive unaccompanied on a first or third provisional but it was generally ignored by both the learners and the authorities. Unless they (the authorities) change their tune, won't make much or indeed any difference?

jhegarty

the_syco wrote: »

Everywhere, or in just some places? As at the moment, I'll be waiting a f**k more than 30. Ah, sure, I'm only waiting 2 weeks so far, with no letter saying they've took my payment (my bank says they did, though)...

Just in some place... just checked there cork is 47 weeks :eek:

Tigger

still don't see why this info should go under the heading judge rules on ...when its new legislation that bertie has pushed through some pretty tough legislation which will-because of the penal bit- over rule anything this judge said

ciaran76

I wonder will it even be inforced ?

Tigger

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Glad I learnt to drive and passed my test in the last year so However this change will mean fu<k-all unless the Gardai actually enforce it.

It's always been illegal to drive unaccompanied on a first or third provisional but it was generally ignored by both the learners and the authorities. Unless they (the authorities) change their tune, won't make much or indeed any difference?

not a penal offence tho

Wishbone Ash

rbd wrote: »

donno why? i wanted it to be visable with the little prieview thingy for anyone who it would affect
now its just gonna say that un-accompanied drivers will be prosecuted;
to which posters on second provos will think"oh that dosen't affect me"

i'm not complaining it dosen't affect me i just thought that all the 2nd provisional holders on google after the news a few minutes ago might likre somewhere to go any discuss what is gonna be a huge pain for a lot of people

Fair point - I can't 'unmerge' threads AFAIK but I've changed the title to reflect the content.

I won't be adding a 'thumbs down' icon as the changes are to be welcomed and will hopefully contribute to road safety.

Tigger

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Fair point - I can't 'unmerge' threads AFAIK but I've changed the title to reflect the content.

fair 'nuff

I won't be adding a 'thumbs down' icon as the changes are to be welcomed and will hopefully contribute to road safety.

i agree that in the long run its safer
i agree that the learner permits are a good idea but...
i dont agree with the speed of introduction
it should have been phased in

machiavellianme

What does this mean for class EB with a trailer? Surely if I have a full B licence for ten years, I dont need somone who has an EB licence to accompany me if I have a provisional trailer licence? Especially if its the same vehicle I've driven every day for ten years with just a trailer attached (which I've done for almost 4 years but havent had a test come up yet)?

Wishbone Ash

machiavellianme wrote: »

What does this mean for class EB with a trailer? Surely if I have a full B licence for ten years, I dont need somone who has an EB licence to accompany me if I have a provisional trailer licence?

You would have been legally required to be accompanied by a person with a full EB licence under the old system anyway!!

Dapos

What will the penalty be if u drive unaccompanied by a full license driver

machiavellianme

Such nonsense. At 16, I was legally driving a tractor and up to 2 trailers on the road unaccompanied. At 17 I passed the driving test for category B and now I have to go back to driving accompanied at 30 years old when I have a trailer for a vehicle I've been qualifed to drove for 13 years even though I can legally do it with a tractor since I was 16 unaccompanied?
If it was moving up a class to C or whatever and the dynamics of the vehicle changed greatly I could understand the above but as is....???????

peasant

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1025/roadsafety.html

Info is a bit sketchy at this stage, just heard bits on the radio and on TV3 news.

Depending on who you believe, either from November 1st or December 1st there will be no more unaccompanied driving ...second provisional licence or not.

There also was talk of a 1000 euro fine and penalty points.

Anyone got reliable information yet ?

dak

From next Tuesday all provisional drivers can no longer drive alone , no matter if it is your 2nd or 3rd provisional licence. The accompanying passanger with full licence must have held it for 2 years and is subject to drink driving legislation. Passenger must be sober and under legal limit !

What do you think! How many drivers will be off the road next week ? Do you agree with this change ?

testicle

http://www.rsa.ie/Home/upload/File/Introduction%20of%20Learner%20Permit%20and%20Changes%20to%20the%20Driver%20Licensing%20System%20final%20confirmed.doc

peasant

That clears it up !

. The holder of category B (Car) learner permit (provisional licence) must be accompanied by and under the supervision of a qualified person at all times. This change removes an exemption that, up to now, allowed a person on a second provisional licence to drive unaccompanied. To drive unaccompanied will be a penal offence and the person will be subject to prosecution.

Q: When does this new rule come into effect?

A: This is coming into effect as and from 30 October 2007.