Changes to the Driver Licencing System Mega Thread

stovelid

Hydromonkey wrote: »

I have my test next week, if I pass do I have to go through this 'R' plate bollocks?

I was reading the strategy document today; it seems to be still at the proposal stage at the moment.

Cionád

stovelid wrote: »

Does that apply to the large number of clowns that had no intention of applying for the test and - when taking a breather from whining on boards - have now suddenly remembered to sign up for the test?

To be honest, it kinda applies to everyone!! 40 years of inaction has left the public used to just getting a provisional and driving. Thats what has been the done thing. I know it is wrong, but trying to change 40 years of inaction in 5 days is outrageous imo.

I'm sure you never drove alone on a first provisional?, I know I did for about a year while waiting for the test to come up. Passed it a year ago, not even able to supervise my mother now cause i've not had my license 2 years yet!!

Cionád

stovelid wrote: »

Anybody who has been driving around on a PL, and has just decided to apply today deserves a temporary ban, tbh.

What?? lol

Does that apply to 2nd PL holders?

GerryRyan

Lads, it will not last long - I know a few garda myself and they haven't even been briefed on it yet.

Another half-cookedt idea from the RSA and ridiculously over-paid goverment.

It'll be pot-luck who gets caught out, they don't have the man-power to stop every single learner driver.

As another poster said - do they want to force us off the roads, and directly force us out of work or college.

I give it a week at most.

Cionád wrote: »

To be honest, it kinda applies to everyone!! 40 years of inaction has left the public used to just getting a provisional and driving. Thats what has been the done thing. I know it is wrong, but trying to change 40 years of inaction in 5 days is outrageous imo.

Our man in Havana

Wikipedia wrote:

Noel Dempsey
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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mo·ron /ˈmɔrɒn, ˈmoʊr-/ Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

1. a person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgment. 2. Psychology. a person of borderline intelligence in a former classification of mental retardation, having an intelligence quotient of 50 to 69. Compare feeble-minded.

[Origin: 1905–10, Americanism; < Gk mōrón, neut. of mōrós foolish, dull]

ROFL!

stovelid

@cionaid

I drove around unaccompanied on my PL, although not that frequently. Didn't have access to a car at the time, only drove my partner's when I visited her in the west.

I applied for the test and failed it; reapplied and passed.

My gripe is not with people stuck on long waiting lists. Or the people who drive around unaccompanied (while waiting for tests) if the car is essential to them. The law was not enforced properly until now.

My gripe is with the people that are currently borking the test application site. The ones who have been driving around for ages on a PL and have only suddenly remembered to apply for the test now.

Unfortunately, any change to the system is going to be a shock because, like you say, people have been so used to building their life around a car that they are not qualified to drive.

Supercell

rgunning wrote: »

And remember, if you take it that there is 4 seats in his constituency (I think), that is roughly 10,000 annoyed voters who now hate him in his own constituency. Even he would see that this amounts to political suicide.

ps - just saw this - look up Noel Dempsey in Wiki. Brilliant

I doubt he's worried, most people in the age group without proper driving licenses don't/rarely vote either.

I was talking to a colleague in work today that's on his fourth provisional license.
I just couldn't believe how that was, so asked him..he's a nice easygoing guy so wasn't really surprised:-

1st Provisional first test - Ah sure I had holidays booked on the test date
2nd Provisional - My mechanic told me no way would my car pass an NCT so no point in turning up for the test
3rd Provisional (he said to me in a conspiratorial tone..sure you only have to show that you've applied for a test to get another license) - Driving the same car so no point in going to that
4th - as far as I know he's still driving the same car......

From reading posts here it looks like the gardaí won't be arsed anyhow.

What a joke, how the hell do they manage in the rest of the civilised world to only allow fully trained and tested drivers on the public highway with no apparent problems?

No sympathy, not that you'll need as its not going to be enforced anyhow.

smemon

i can see it now....

"Fully licensed driver available (2 years experience) for passenger seat work, €20/hr, contact 086 xxxxxxx."

TheNog

maxi-twist wrote: »

I wouldnt mind seeing some statistics in this regard. Anyone got any links to numbers of accidents caused by provisional licenced drivers compared to fully licenced drivers? Id like to see where this "saving of 400 lives is coming from".

So would I? I cannot see where they have pulled out the number of 400. Of course they didn't explain it in detail. I wonder if it is a PR stunt. "Lets chose 400 people saved in the life time of this plan. It sounds really good and will get the backing of the people".

TheNog

Longfield wrote: »

From reading posts here it looks like the gardaí won't be arsed anyhow.

What a joke, how the hell do they manage in the rest of the civilised world to only allow fully trained and tested drivers on the public highway with no apparent problems?

No sympathy, not that you'll need as its not going to be enforced anyhow.

It won't be enforced because an element of discretion or common sense will be applied. The enforcement date brought in by the government is too soon for the type of testing system already in place!!

How can 3-400,000 L drivers be suddenly unaccompanied??

Again this is another example of our simple-minded government officials trying to curb serious injuries and deaths on our roads.

Cionád

TheNog wrote: »

So would I? I cannot see where they have pulled out the number of 400. Of course they didn't explain it in detail. I wonder if it is a PR stunt. "Lets chose 400 people saved in the life time of this plan. It sounds really good and will get the backing of the people".

Its probably the amount of people 'saved' by driving more modern (mostly safer) cars, on wider (safer) roads over the next few years. Then in a few years they'll say "ahhh, thats because of the change in the provisional laws" :rolleyes:

fifth

I heard this today whilst getting my hair cut.. I was annoyed.

I'm starting a new job on Tues, and need need need the car. I applied for my test a year ago and failed it on wednesday. I need to reapply asap, but the site is down.

I don't know what I'll do, probably keep driving, and apply for a cancellation and pass my test definitely this time.

Aaaah!!!!

fifth

God.. I wish this was all a big fake episode of The Day Today or Brass Eye..put my mind at rest..

MrPudding

funkyflea wrote: »

I'm starting a new job on Tues, and need need need the car. I applied for my test a year ago and failed it on wednesday. I need to reapply asap, but the site is down.

I don't know what I'll do, probably keep driving, and apply for a cancellation and pass my test definitely this time.

Aaaah!!!!

I have to say, if you wait for a year for your test and then fail it you deserve to be off the road.... no offense. It's not like it took you by surprise. Or did you fall foul of the dreaded quota [giant rolleyes].

Here is the thing. Most people consder the test to be rubbish, yet 50% fail it. So we have all these people waiting months and months for a test and they can't even be arsed preparing for it properly. No sympathy.

I have even less sympathy when these people ask, nay demand, that even though they have failed a, generally accepted, inadequate test of competency they should be allowed to drive on their own! Seriously, can you guys not just stop for a second, take a deep breath, pretend you are from another country, open you mind a little and have a good think about how completely, totally utterly, bonkers mad & fcuking stupid that is?

MrP

fifth

MrPudding wrote: »

I have to say, if you wait for a year for your test and then fail it you deserve to be off the road.... no offense. It's not like it took you by surprise. Or did you fall foul of the dreaded quota [giant rolleyes].

Here is the thing. Most people consder the test to be rubbish, yet 50% fail it. So we have all these people waiting months and months for a test and they can't even be arsed preparing for it properly. No sympathy.

I have even less sympathy when these people ask, nay demand, that even though they have failed a, generally accepted, inadequate test of competency they should be allowed to drive on their own! Seriously, can you guys not just stop for a second, take a deep breath, pretend you are from another country, open you mind a little and have a good think about how completely, totally utterly, bonkers mad & fcuking stupid that is?

MrP

You can't really comment on my test result as you weren't there. I was unfortunate enough to meet a possibly drunk driver on the way who erraticaly pulled out in front of me at a junction into the wrong lane, without indicating, leaving me no time to react, but it apparently was my fault and I got a grade 3 fault for it, I'm not appealing because the decision can't be overturned.

Other than that I feel I am competent enough to pass the test, I am just annoyed that between now and the retest, I'll have to leave my car at home and get a bloody taxi or something to work every morning.

JamesM

Sully wrote: »

Spoke to the RSA there, its still going ahead but no prosecutions.

Carry on as normal as far as I can see.

As I have already said a few times - See what the insurance companies say !
You may not be prosecuted by the Guards, but will you be covered by the Insurance companies.

Capt'n Midnight

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

That arguement is trotted out frequently but why is it that two thirds of provisional licence holders have not applied for a driving test? :rolleyes:

The reason as everyone knows is that ANYONE can self-certify. Pay your money and drive. If the Guards start enforcing the law then for the first time ever in this country people will actually need to pass a driving test or risk prosecution.

Capt'n Midnight

Stark wrote: »

Like I said on another thread, I have sympathy for the 140,000 people who are currently on the waiting list. The other 300,000 are getting what they deserve.

I'd also have some sympathy for those on their second provisional, absolutely crazy but it's very short notice for a change like that. Litterly people who are legally allowed to drive will have to make alternative arrangements FOR THE NEXT WORKING DAY and have it done by close of business on a bank holiday weekend.


those not on second provisional are already breaking the law so have no legal basis to complain

those on second provisionals would IMHO a joe public have reason to challange this in the courts, based on the amount of notice given. inexcusable from a safety point of view, but perhaps a fairer way would be to allow them to drive till the end of their license.


BTW: this evening I saw an ISM turning right at a crossroads traffic light. The car did not indicate. Both occupants have signed documents to say they understood the rules of the road. Can an instructor like that be prosecuted / get points for stuff like this since they wern't in control ?

orbital83

These guys don't seem to have a clue what they're talking about.
What is the point of mandatory speed limiters if you have to be accompanied by a qualified driver with two years' experience?
Suppose it will avoid the scenario where a learner driver hijacks the car, ties up their accompanying driver and goes on a mad speeding session.

On the one hand the nonsense being spewed by the RSA makes me want to laugh but on the other it makes me worried what direction this country is heading in.

Capt'n Midnight

kikel wrote: »

In 2006 165,000 test were done 47% failed. info taken from here
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/travel-and-recreation/motoring-1/driving-tests/driving_test
87K pass each year then. How long would it take to clear the backlog that this new rule would cause.

430/87 = about 5 years. But one has to assume that the 130K on the list feel they can pass so the pass rate of the others would be lower.

Find out how many new provisionals are handed out each year. If the number is > 87K then we will never clear the back log.

orbital83

Interesting discussion on Morning Ireland - a woman was on from "Public Against Road Carnage" saying she thought it was unfair how this had been introduced with such short notice.

That prat Dempsey is back-tracking slightly tonight saying "discretion will be exercised" but that's all fine and well till you meet a guard in a bad mood or on a power trip.

It's easy knowing there's a hole in the budget anyway... €1000 fine for 400,000 provisional drivers, hmmm that's an extra €400m for the exchequer. Something has to make up for the property bubble revenue

Anyway... I wonder can a legal loophole be picked in this legislation? It took them years to get the drink driving laws right. In fact, some would say they still haven't!

Calina

John J wrote: »

It's easy knowing there's a hole in the budget anyway... €1000 fine for 400,000 provisional drivers, hmmm that's an extra €400m for the exchequer. Something has to make up for the property bubble revenue

Well, if you are not breaking the rules, you don't get fined...so it's hardly guaranteed income.

orbital83

True... and in classic FF stupidity they haven't thought of the negative revenue effects this could have.

If they actually enforce this, and learners stop driving, the government could be pretty screwed for revenue.

Assuming only 200,000 provisional licence holders actually drive and 20% of them have no alternative mode of transport to work, the cost per annum:

Loss of Road Tax €58m
Loss of VAT on Insurance €42m
Loss of Excise on Fuel €130m
Additional Social Welfare payments €375m
Loss of Income Tax & PAYE €160m
==> Total €765m
and that's before you start thinking about knock-on effects.

Yeah, you'd know I'm training for an actuary

Wishbone Ash

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Will it affect those operating under the 12/08/85 rule?

alan4cult wrote: »

What is this rule?

Road Traffic Licencing of Drivers Regulations 1999

Part 3, Section 20, Sub Section 6, Part (c) (iii).

(6) (a) In this sub-article "qualified person" means a person who holds a driving licence in respect of the vehicle category being driven.
(b) Subject to paragraph (c) of this sub-article, a provisional licence shall, on coming into effect, licence the holder to drive a vehicle of any category for which the licence is granted on any occasion during the period specified in the licence provided that the following conditions are complied with—
(i) a person provisionally licensed to drive vehicles of category A1, A or M shall not carry a passenger in or on such a vehicle,
(ii) a person provisionally licensed to drive a vehicle shall not carry in the vehicle any passenger for reward,
(iii) a person provisionally licensed to drive vehicles of category B, C1, C, D1, D, EB, EC1, EC, ED1, or ED shall not drive such a vehicle unless there are displayed on the vehicle rectangular plates or signs bearing the letter "L" not less than fifteen centimetres high in red on a white ground, in clearly visible vertical positions to the front and rear of the vehicle,
(iv) a person provisionally licensed to drive vehicles of category B, C1, C, D1, D, EB, EC1, EC, ED1 or ED shall not drive such a vehicle unless he or she is accompanied by and is under the supervision of a qualified person,
(v) a person provisionally licensed to drive vehicles of category W shall not carry a passenger in or on such a vehicle unless the vehicle is constructed or adapted to carry a passenger and such passenger is a qualified person,
(vi) notwithstanding article 6 of these Regulations, a person provisionally licensed to drive vehicles of category B, C1, C, D1 or D shall not drive such a vehicle while the vehicle is drawing a trailer.
(c) (i) The condition set out in paragraph (b) (iv) of this sub-article shall not apply while the holder of the licence is driving a vehicle in the course of undergoing a driving test or driving a vehicle of a category in respect of which he or she holds a valid certificate of competency, or, where that certificate contains a statement that in relation to a category of vehicle it is limited to a specified type of vehicle, while he or she is driving a vehicle of that type.
(ii) The condition at paragraph (b) (iv) of this sub-article shall not apply to a vehicle which is constructed or adapted for use by a person suffering from a physical handicap and which is not constructed or adapted to carry a passenger.
(iii) The condition at paragraph (b) (iv) of this sub-article shall not apply to the driving of a vehicle in category B by a person to whom a provisional licence in respect of vehicles in class C under the revoked regulations was granted prior to 12 August, 1985 or to a person who is driving a vehicle in category B during the period of validity of a second provisional licence granted to him or her in respect of such vehicles.


Basically, under current legislation, a person who held a provisional licence in category B (old category C) prior to the 12th August 1985 was not required to be accompanied at all.

Just in case some may think that I'm an ignoramus, I asked the above question before the full details were released!

chump

John J wrote: »

True... and in classic FF stupidity they haven't thought of the negative revenue effects this could have.

If they actually enforce this, and learners stop driving, the government could be pretty screwed for revenue.

Assuming only 200,000 provisional licence holders actually drive and 20% of them have no alternative mode of transport to work, the cost per annum:

Loss of Road Tax €58m
Loss of VAT on Insurance €42m
Loss of Excise on Fuel €130m
Additional Social Welfare payments €375m
Loss of Income Tax & PAYE €160m
==> Total €765m
and that's before you start thinking about knock-on effects.

Yeah, you'd know I'm training for an actuary

And the thing is every second plonker you meet on the street moaning about this voted these inepts back into government ... you reap what you sow

Wishbone Ash

John J wrote: »

That prat Dempsey

That's not acceptable on this forum JohnJ. You are perfectly entitled to disagree with the Minister but please do so in a more constructive manner. Thanks.

Angelcake

I've just applied. Only been driving since August and was going to wait till I get a bit more experience.

I do think it's a good idea what I don't agree with is the time frame or the fact they decided to inforce it during Mid Term Break. I'm also very confused .. will it be feb will it be tuesday or will it be the 1st before this comes in. Guards say they will enforce it Minsiter says use discretion??? Talk about mixed messages.

orbital83

My Apologies Wishbone Ash - I was in the frame of mind that if similar terminology is good enough for the Fine Gael Road Safety Spokesman, it's good enough for me.

http://www.finegael.ie/news/index.cfm/type/details/nkey/32612/pkey/0

Sometimes degrees of incompetence are just too great to be framed within friendly polite language.

RYR154

I’m totally amazed at the amount of people on these forums on such a high moral ground with there full driving license under there belt. Probably the same people that get right up the a*se of L drivers with a big red head because they are not going fast enough.

They must be the same people that where born with a steering wheel in there hand and a full license in there nappy.

I wounder if they would have the same opinion if they had a provisional license. Some how I don’t think so!!!

I’m not surprised with the comments on this form from the full license drivers. Typical Irish approach to everything. I’m alright jack so don’t come looking for my support.

The simple fact is, the government created this problem and they are kicking L drivers in the teeth now they want to clean it up. This has nothing to do with saving lives. If they really wanted to save a single life on Irish roads then the first thing they should do is restrict all L drivers to 1.0 Litre cars.
How on earth is it still legal for a 17 Year old to get a provisional and the very next day go out and get an overpowered car.
I think the following would have more effect in saving lives then making a woman take a bus with 3 or 4 kids (With some of the stupid comments on this forum I’m just waiting for someone to say she should not have kids if that’s the case)

1 Restrict all L drivers to 1ltr cars
2 Driving tests must be carried out in an instructors Car
3 Instructor regulation and accountability.
4 State run or funded instructions
5 Add driving to the Secondary School education system

Only then can they enforce the c**p they came out with today. This new policy should only apply to first time Provisional license holders. These people have nothing to loose as they have not driven before.

And before anyone asks
I am a full license holder and have been for over 16 years.
I did have a provisional license before I passed my test.
I did drive with no full driver next to me.

I don’t know anyone with a provisional license so I have no hidden reason for supporting them. We all started somewhere. Even the posters on this forum with a full license.

I hope the L drivers take the Taxi approach and block up Gov buildings to show they won't take this anymore. If they do I will be right their with them.

Its about time people started getting mad in this country. :mad:

Wishbone Ash

Hobbes wrote:

btw didn't they have an Amnesty some years back that gave everyone on the road a free license?

In 1979 the waiting time for a driving test for category C (now was 2.5 years in some centres.

On the 11th of October of that year, to alleviate the problem, the Minister of the day granted a full C licence to 32,085 motorists who were on their second provisional licence and who had already applied for the test by a particular cut off date which was about six months previously.

(I'm sure the people who applied on the day after the cut off date must have been sick!)