In the money - huge pay hikes for all!

Sleepy

nesf wrote: »

I think that ignoring the possibility is too dangerous to be worth maintaining idealism about politics tbh. Its a factor that people need to keep in mind when deciding on whether they should be paid large amounts or not.

Cheaper solution - pay them a realistic salary index linked to the national average wage (say in the order of three times the average?) and impose a death sentence for corruption.

Thrill wrote: »

Give us a break. Death and destruction because of an admittedly large pay hike is really going way OTT. The people of Burma (Myanmar) have a reason for going this far but we are a long way from that kind of problem here.

TBH, the pay raise is the straw that's broken this camel's back.

This country has too many politicians, too many political dynasties, too few competent people putting themselves forth for election, too relaxed an attitude to corruption, too few ideals, too much greed and too little sense to do anything about it at election time.

Armed revolution was possibly a bad choice of wording. I'd be thinking more along the lines of Collins' hit squads of the 20's than storming the GPO.

walshb

But little Jay and Rocco will need the extra few bob when they start school:)
Isn't this what Ahern tried to con us with when Dobson interviewed
him about the payments scandal last year, how he was in financial trouble
and how his family (Daughters) needed the money for schooling

There's just no level that these people will NOT stoop too...

We are truly a banana republic....

Tea drinker

Well,
I simply don't understand why politicians have to be paid more here than anywhere else.

1. Why aren't they paid relative to the size / responsibilty of the job / country.
2. If they are to be benchmarked against the private sector, is the private sector in Ireland really earning that much more than the rest of the world? I know we have some large corp. in Ireland, but are the CEO in Ireland really paid more than those in the megacorp in US, UK or Norway?

There seems to be no way to explain the high salaries here.
I know someone has suggested it's better that we pay them a legitimate bribe, but that doesn't work for me.

Sleepy

Sleepy wrote: »

Armed revolution was possibly a bad choice of wording. I'd be thinking more along the lines of Collins' hit squads of the 20's than storming the GPO.

This isn't the comedy forum you know

Generally speaking when I find a lot of the general public disagree with a view,I revisit that view to see whats wrong with it.Sometimes I'll maintain the view and just respect others viewpoints or take them on board.
This current government was returned by inteligent people aswell as uninteligent people,they all have a right to have done that.

Will Enda Kenny be returning his pay rise this year or not claiming the pension he is entitled to having served as a minister in the last rainbow government?
Will he be even sending half of it to Goal ? I doubt it.
I agree this latest pay rise was taking the mick pay wise but theres a lot of hot air being spouted about it.Relative to the countries whose PM's wages have been mentioned so far,which of them did the better job in managing their country in the last 10 years?(Remember the pay is related to performance)
How did this country go from a situation a little over ten years ago of being a hand out basket case to what it is now?
Did the fairies do it?

I can find a lot of things wrong with the country I'm living in but I can tell you that theres (and by a vast majority) a lot more things right about it than wrong.
For sure some of the wrong things can be annoying but hey thats life, some things just can't be fixed because human nature gets in the way.
I wouldn't be in a hurry to go to hospital in Kent for instance despite Michael moores raving about how good the NHS is....
I'll try and work a bit harder and afford private health care such is my lack of faith in reforming our bloated creaking at the seams,money thrown at it from all angles health service.

Sleepy

Tristrame wrote: »

Did the fairies do it?

Well, they had about as much to do with it as the current government...

the only thing they can take credit for in our economy is the property bubble.

Sleepy

Tristrame wrote: »

This isn't the comedy forum you know

As much as it scares me to admit it even to myself, I'm actually serious. I think there's more than one member of the Dail (and many of our unions and state bodies) that would better serve this country as organ doners than in their current positions.

I was largely responding to negativity and whinge whinge whingyness, a quality I hate in people.
I'd not be of the view that this country could have gottten out of its basket case situation with out something semi competent steering it but I do reckon going on their performance from 94 to 97 that FG/Lab would probably have steered it in a similar direction.
I don't what mechanism they'd have had in place for pay hikes but you can be sure that it would have been generous.


Sleepy take the pseudo Rah talk to somewhere else will ya please thanks.

Colonel Sanders

Tristrame wrote: »

I agree this latest pay rise was taking the mick pay wise but theres a lot of hot air being spouted about it.Relative to the countries whose PM's wages have been mentioned so far,which of them did the better job in managing their country in the last 10 years?(Remember the pay is related to performance)

But how much of this was directly FF's doing (apart from letting the building industry get away with murder)?

Does this mean that in future ministers who waste millions on scandals such as e-voting will get a pay decrease (or even better, the sack). I think not.

I think most people's beef with this is that almost straight after had Brian Cowen made statments about cut backs in public spending the government ministers and senior civil servants are awarded pay hikes costing the tax payer €16m a year. People who, IMO, were already over paid.

Tea drinker

Tristrame wrote: »

This current government was returned by inteligent people aswell as uninteligent people,they all have a right to have done that.

A lot of people voted for FF because
1. it was what they knew
2. Were afraid of the other crowd - they might have done an even worse job.

Of course this just shows again the poor quality of the opposition.
And the conspiracy theory is they done a poor job on the election because the sh!t is about to hit the fan, economically speaking.

Colonel Sanders

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

But how much of this was directly FF's doing (apart from letting the building industry get away with murder)?

Does this mean that in future ministers who waste millions on scandals such as e-voting will get a pay decrease (or even better, the sack). I think not.

Governments especially Irish governments are slow to sack huge vote getters and understandably so.
Regarding evoting-yeah sure-that was a whopping mistake [not e voting as a principle but the shambolic machines] , but and it's a big but context is everything.Politicians will make some mistakes and the better the country is doing, the bigger the mistakes look when examined in isolation.

I think most people's beef with this is that almost straight after had Brian Cowen made statments about cut backs in public spending the government ministers and senior civil servants are awarded pay hikes costing the tax payer €16m a year. People who, IMO, were already over paid.

Thats timing for you.
They didn't cancel any of the bench marking least of all their own.They pushed it as a solution to a public sector pay demands that a lot of people would not have liked and largely it worked out with a blip with respect to the nurses.
We're not alone though with resource problems and wage problems in the health sector-just look at our near neighbour.Expecting us to have the cure all that everybody agree's with is la la land in my opinion.

You see you can trim costs but it's not a good idea in the long term to trim peoples salaries as part of the cost cutting-then you really do start getting chaff applying for the jobs.
I suppose the Government have been too cócky in taking these latest rises and by any standards enormous rises.It would have been more in their line to defer the bulk of the rise given the level their salaries are already at.
It's not the views on that I'm rejecting,It's the propensity a lot of people seem to have for un necessary whinging.
Theres no concept of relativity.
It's all wah wah wah whinge whinge with some.
Clearly not every one thinks like that though or we would have changed our government.

jmayo

Tea drinker wrote: »

A lot of people voted for FF because
1. it was what they knew
2. Were afraid of the other crowd - they might have done an even worse job.

Of course this just shows again the poor quality of the opposition.
And the conspiracy theory is they done a poor job on the election because the sh!t is about to hit the fan, economically speaking.

It could only happen in Ireland that the opposition is blamed for the wrong doing of the government :rolleyes:

FF/PDs were eternally blessed by the arrival of cheap credit just at the right time.
The great hyped Celtic tiger really died back in 2001.
Since then we have effectively generated our wealth through the availability of cheap credit and the overhpyed residential property market.
We have continously lost jobs within manufacturing and indeed some of the service industries.
And anybody that did complain, or in the words of bertie baffoon, "whinge" that it wasn't sustainable was told to sod off and stop talking the economy down :rolleyes:
The people struggling to get on the gravy train or those who were already on it just wanted to make sure the person who kept the party going was kept in power.
But the fallout from the last five/six years of party will probably leave one long hangover for a lot of people.

And before anyone says it, how many politicans have ever stood up and omcplained about pay hikes, Joe Higgins and Tony Gregory apart ?

Colonel Sanders

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

.

If I was just after finishing college I'd be giving serious consideration to jumping ship and getting out of this bloody country.

Tea drinker wrote: »

NEWSFLASH:
IF YOU ARE YOUNG ENOUGH - LEAVE NOW THE SH!TBOX COUNTRY IS GOING TO IMPLODE.

why!! (im interested in your responses because Im currently back in college and my plan is to jump ship as soon as Im done)

Sleepy

Sleepy wrote: »

I am honestly starting to believe the only way to fix this country is through armed revolution and it scares the hell out of me that I'm not joking in the slightest.

dear lord!!

why not just walk away like the others are talkin!

Tea drinker

jmayo wrote: »

It could only happen in Ireland that the opposition is blamed for the wrong doing of the government :rolleyes:

FF/PDs were eternally blessed by the arrival of cheap credit just at the right time.
The great hyped Celtic tiger really died back in 2001.
Since then we have effectively generated our wealth through the availability of cheap credit and the overhpyed residential property market.
We have continously lost jobs within manufacturing and indeed some of the service industries.
And anybody that did complain, or in the words of bertie baffoon, "whinge" that it wasn't sustainable was told to sod off and stop talking the economy down :rolleyes:
The people struggling to get on the gravy train or those who were already on it just wanted to make sure the person who kept the party going was kept in power.
But the fallout from the last five/six years of party will probably leave one long hangover for a lot of people.

And before anyone says it, how many politicans have ever stood up and omcplained about pay hikes, Joe Higgins and Tony Gregory apart ?

Think of the opposition as the "conscience" of the gov. - you know like in real countries. These guys have the inside line on politics so should be in the lead to expose wrongdoing. However, nobody can really blame them for the current mess because they are not in power. This is a classic FF mess, and they are responsible.
We can however say the opposition should live up to their title at least. Their performance out of office giving us a sneak preview of what to expect when in.

The rest of your post is 100%

aidan24326

Bertie and his esteemed ministerial colleagues deserve every penny. Truly marvellous men with honesty, integrity and tremendously astute use of public funds. I'd give them more money, sure poor Bertie has daughters to feed and now there's little Jay and Rocco aswell with hardly a pair of shoes between them.

http://www.economist.com/daily/chartgallery/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10064094

Madness

Mrs Roy Keane

why are the getting pay increases what have they done f-ck all?

They should be getting pay cuts

look at the amount of homeless in Ireland and also the health crisis/hospital crisis thats where the money should be going

mike65

Tristrame wrote: »

Theres no concept of relativity.

Tis a pity the ahem, 'independent panel' that awarded the rises did'nt have a sense of relativity.

That bit in the Economist is madness,

BERTIE AHERN, Ireland's taoiseach (prime minister), has good reason to smile. He recently accepted his 26th pay rise in ten years,

26th??????????????????????????????????????????????????

Mike.

Mrs Roy Keane

Mrs Roy Keane wrote: »

look at the amount of homeless in Ireland

I deliberately don't give money personally to people on the streets with cups...A lot of them should get up off their backsides and fill some of the loads of un skilled jobs that are out there-I heard the likes of Aldi are paying €10 to €12 an hour

and also the health crisis/hospital crisis thats where the money should be going

Short of the politicians standing in the corridoors oversee'ing whats going on what do you expect a politician to do exactly there?
Theres a lot of bureocratic nonsense fowling up our hospital system.
Try overhaul it and see what the unions will do? yup strike probably.

My best advice to anyone giving out about this is to smoke 20 less a day and buy private health insurance with the saving.I've given up on the public service co operating with the idea of being effecient (sometimes).
At least if you regularally don't meet your targets in the private system, you might lose your job so the incentive is to deliver rather than take that sicky on a friday and a monday...

nesf

Tristrame wrote: »

I've given up on the public service co operating with the idea of being effecient (sometimes).

Yeah, the problem is convincing people to fire themselves (which is essentially what you need to do to trim numbers in the public service) isn't exactly an easy trick to pull off.

Colonel Sanders

nesf wrote: »

Yeah, the problem is convincing people to fire themselves (which is essentially what you need to do to trim numbers in the public service) isn't exactly an easy trick to pull off.

True. However why the hell isn't 'natural wastage' used to trim numbers in the public sector?

I know several people who work in all areas of the public sector. Some work hard as they haven't enough staff in their dept, some do almost nothing as there are twice as many staff in their dept as is needed. Would unions oppose people being made move departments if the physical location of the job was not changed?

nesf

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

I know several people who work in all areas of the public sector. Some work hard as they haven't enough staff in their dept, some do almost nothing as there are twice as many staff in their dept as is needed.

Generally, that's how you tell public servants from civil servants.

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

Would unions oppose people being made move departments if the physical location of the job was not changed?

Yes, I imagine they would find something about the move to create a fuss over.

Mrs Roy Keane

Tristrame wrote: »

I deliberately don't give money personally to people on the streets with cups...A lot of them should get up off their backsides and fill some of the loads of un skilled jobs that are out there-I heard the likes of Aldi are paying €10 to €12 an hour
Short of the politicians standing in the corridoors oversee'ing whats going on what do you expect a politician to do exactly there?
Theres a lot of bureocratic nonsense fowling up our hospital system.
Try overhaul it and see what the unions will do? yup strike probably.

My best advice to anyone giving out about this is to smoke 20 less a day and buy private health insurance with the saving.I've given up on the public service co operating with the idea of being effecient (sometimes).
At least if you regularally don't meet your targets in the private system, you might lose your job so the incentive is to deliver rather than take that sicky on a friday and a monday...

They could put the money into the hospitals instead of giving it to the government it would be a start.

It would be eaten up by administration and ineffeciencies and have little perceivable affect.
A better idea might be to give it to Goal.

ednwireland

what annoys me is the 26th pay rise in 10 years this really is unjustifiable i havent had a pay rise in 5 years (i work for myself) if i put up my rates i'd get less work.

as to the guy talking about beggars has he ever tried getting a job when you havent got an address evan at aldi try it sometime. help is what a llot of this people need in housing education etc.

Really ?
That article aside..

Harney was on the news at one today saying that it was the First payrise in seven years and that it was being implimented over the next two years to be completed by this time in 2009.

She ended by saying to the journalists that you wouldn't want to believe everything you read in the papers.

There were roars of laughter audible from the journalists.

See it's funny how we all seem to be talking for the last few days about something the details of which we are ill informed on...

gurramok

Someone is telling porkies, harney or the papers?

Even the economist magazine agrees with ednwireland on the 26th part.
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10064708

If its untrue, shall we see Bertie sueing the papers for defamation?

mike65

If we had a more transparent and accountable public service such misunderstandings would'nt happen of course.

Mike.

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote: »

Really ?
That article aside..

Harney was on the news at one today saying that it was the First payrise in seven years and that it was being implimented over the next two years to be completed by this time in 2009.

She ended by saying to the journalists that you wouldn't want to believe everything you read in the papers.

There were roars of laughter audible from the journalists.

See it's funny how we all seem to be talking for the last few days about something the details of which we are ill informed on...

Um, Bertie and the other senior ministers have received an average of 2 pay rises every year since 1997
His salary has increased by almost 150% in 10 years.

A SBP survey in 2005 found that Ahern and his cabinet had received 22 separate pay rises since 1997 In the last 2 years they received 5 more increases and are due 3 more next year.

What was said by Hearny might be technically true (about how the whole civil service had only had a collective pay review once in 10 years, but the claim that there hadn't been increases in 7 years is a gross misrepresentation of the facts, and in reference to her own salary is spin bordering on an outright lie. http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS+FEATURES-qqqs=news-qqqid=27760-qqqx=1.asp

‘‘I don’t [have any interest in personal wealth] . . . If I had done those things [become a tax consultant] I would be a very wealthy guy.”

‘‘But I opted not to do that. If I can go on my annual holidays to Kerry, get a few days sometimes, if I can get now and again to Old Trafford, if I have enough money for a few pints and if I can look after Miriam and the kids, I don’t care a damn, I couldn’t care.”

‘‘And tomorrow if I hadn’t got very much, it wouldn’t matter. I’m well paid so I can’t moan. But if I hadn’t got that I wouldn’t moan too much either.”

‘‘I have no desire to have a big house, no desire to have land. I’d consider it a nuisance, actually.”

‘‘I’m glad I don’t own Chequers or don’t have Number 10 or the Elysee Palace. If you want to build those in, then you know what the figures would be. I certainly don’t want the White House. There is no comparison and I think people know that.”

– Bertie Ahern (taken from various interviews)

walshb

Well I think Bertie put it quiet well today when he said about the pay rise issue:

"Such an action would simply be playing 'smokes and daggers' with the issue"

Man, our Bertie is some Boyo!!!!!!!

He might want to use some of that pay rise
to go back to school......