Driving: From Provisional License to Learning Permit (Merged)

_Kaiser_

gazzer wrote: »

Am I right in thinking that there is only one type of Learner Permit to be issued (i.e not a 1st permit, 2nd permit etc)?? If so what happens to somebody on a 1st provisional who was due to get their second provisional in a few weeks?? Will they be allowed drive unaccompanied until next June (or if they pass their test in the meantime)? If your 1st provisional runs out and you get a permit do you have to reapply for your test as anything I have read states that anybody applying for one of these new permits has to wait 6 months before they apply for their test. What if (like me) you have already applied for your test and havnt been called yet??

As I understand it, existing provisional licenses will be valid until they expire, but from tomorrow only learner permits will be issued, and all the rules associated therewith will apply.

Slutmonkey57b

Stark wrote: »

It's not just about fatalities. Poor driver standards make living and commuting in cities stressful and unpleasant. Case in point, when I suggested cycling, people freaked out. Why is this? People are turned off it due to a lack of care and courtesy from the driving population. When you suggest taking the bus, people give out that it takes too long. And this is mostly due to cars blocking bus lanes and junctions. Forcing people to take one little driving test won't make these problems go away overnight, but it's a small start.

The bus taking a long time isn't due to bus lanes being blocked. Case in point:
I had to travel from Cabinteely to the arse end of Bray quite regularly. By car, this was a straight sprint down the motorway - 5 minutes door to door if there was no traffic, 10 minutes if there was. But I was busing it - there was an 84 bus that would take me almost door-to door. There was also a more regular bus that would mean I'd have to take a second bus. It never (as in never) took me less than 45 minutes door to door. And that's going between two points that are actually pretty well served by public transport and even have a direct bus link between them. That's why people don't want to take the bus.

gazzer

gazzer wrote: »

If your 1st provisional runs out and you get a permit do you have to reapply for your test as anything I have read states that anybody applying for one of these new permits has to wait 6 months before they apply for their test. What if (like me) you have already applied for your test and havnt been called yet??

[guesswork]
Hopefully common sense will prevail and the six month rule will only apply the first time applicants, a second provisional (permit) license should be able to apply for a test anytime.
[/guesswork]

_Kaiser_

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

The bus taking a long time isn't due to bus lanes being blocked. Case in point:
I had to travel from Cabinteely to the arse end of Bray quite regularly. By car, this was a straight sprint down the motorway - 5 minutes door to door if there was no traffic, 10 minutes if there was. But I was busing it - there was an 84 bus that would take me almost door-to door. There was also a more regular bus that would mean I'd have to take a second bus. It never (as in never) took me less than 45 minutes door to door. And that's going between two points that are actually pretty well served by public transport and even have a direct bus link between them. That's why people don't want to take the bus.

Exactly. It's the same all over the city. What should be a simple journey becomes a convoluted nightmare - often with a completely unnecessary detour through "an lar".

EG: Blanchardstown - Coolock

By Car:
1. Via M50: Depending on the time of day 20-40 mins.
2. Via Finglas & Ballymun: About 45 mins.

Plus the flexibility to alter your route mid-journey as traffic conditions dictate.


By Bus:
1. 39 to town, 27 back out: Anywhere from 90-120 mins+
2. 220 to Finglas, 17A to Northside SC, 27 the rest of the way: again, 90 mins+

This assumes buses show on time. NOT a given, regardless of the time/day.


Now to all you public transport advocates, realistically, which would you choose? Please remember that most people have places to be and don't have time for the Dublin Bus scenic tour.

Toto Wolfcastle

Was just watching 'Nothing but the truth' on Sky 1. The question was 'Have you ever driven illegally'. Everyone was shocked when she answered yes.

Imagine if they asked all of us!! (Ok most of us!!)

Stark

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Now to all you public transport advocates, realistically, which would you choose? Please remember that most people have places to be and don't have time for the Dublin Bus scenic tour.

In my case, I chose to live close to work and cycle/bus until I had my license. That meant living in Mulhuddart for well over a year. But I'm sure living somewhere like Tallaght to commute to Citywest would offend most people's sensibilities.

Slutmonkey7b wrote:

By car, this was a straight sprint down the motorway

Where it's illegal for you to drive.

Slutmonkey7b wrote:

There was also a more regular bus that would mean I'd have to take a second bus. It never (as in never) took me less than 45 minutes door to door. And that's going between two points that are actually pretty well served by public transport and even have a direct bus link between them. That's why people don't want to take the bus.

I learnt to drive in 4th year of college, where it would have been a 10 min journey to college or a 45 min trip on bus+ages waiting for the bus. You know which one I chose? The bus. Why? Because I was on a first provisional and a timid and inexperienced driver. That was despite paying €1600 pa as a named driver for a car that I only got to drive with my dad in the passenger seat. There are plenty of people in a similar situation to me though who are taking the car because they can't get past their own selfishness.

_Kaiser_

Stark wrote: »

In my case, I chose to live close to work and cycle/bus until I had my license. That meant living in Mulhuddart for well over a year.

I love the somewhat smug "move closer to work/get a new job closer to home and use public transport" replies :rolleyes:

1. Not everyone can afford to. Maybe they're at home saving every penny they can for a deposit on a house and don't want to waste it on renting (especially if it's a contract job).

2. Not everyone has/wants to spend hours commuting purely because Dublin Bus think nearly every route should terminate in "City Centre". Or putting up with scumbags on the bus, or standing most/all of the journey.

3. Not everyone lives in Dublin. Spend some time beyond the M50 and you'll see that in a lot of cases, public transport is practically non-existent.


If some people want to spend 2-4 hours of their day on overcrowded, poorly-maintained buses/trains or cycle miles on poor roads in all weather conditions in heavy traffic then fair play to them but that doesn't mean EVERYONE has to/should.

But I digress.. This isn't about the merits of public transport vs private motoring. This is about the changes in the licensing laws and the effects on people.

The only people affected by these changes are those on 2nd provisionals, and this has now been deferred until June 30th to allow them to take and pass their test. No other Learner driver SHOULD be on the road unaccompanied - this has not changed from the position it's always been. All that's changed is the penalties for doing so.

People's concern stems from whether the Gardai will actually be enforcing these new penalties, as opposed to turning a blind eye as they've traditionally done in 99% of cases.

Given the conflicting information coming from rank-and-file members (we weren't told and no, don't worry about it) and the Traffic Corps Commisioner (yes we WILL be enforcing it), my thoughts are that, given the severity of the penalties, people should adopt a "wait and see" attitude for the next few days, or if they DO get caught, hope the Guard is in a charitable mood (which of course, has always been the case anyway).

Seth Brundle

bytesize wrote: »

What about people who are on their 1st provisional licenses that will expire before next June and would normally go onto a 2nd provisional license? Will they also be allowed to drive unaccompanied until June 30th?

and

gazzer wrote: »

Am I right in thinking that there is only one type of Learner Permit to be issued (i.e not a 1st permit, 2nd permit etc)?? If so what happens to somebody on a 1st provisional who was due to get their second provisional in a few weeks?? Will they be allowed drive unaccompanied until next June (or if they pass their test in the meantime)? If your 1st provisional runs out and you get a permit do you have to reapply for your test as anything I have read states that anybody applying for one of these new permits has to wait 6 months before they apply for their test. What if (like me) you have already applied for your test and havnt been called yet??

They will not get a second provisional - they will get a drivers permit or whatever its called! This applies to anyone renewing a licence. No more 1st, 2nd or 3rd provisional (etc.) licences are going to be issued.

jhegarty wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1029/roadsafety.html

The Chief Executive of the Driving Instructors Register said he does not believe it is possible for all drivers currently on a second provisional licence to pass their driving tests by next June.

Yesterday, the Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey announced the new road safety regulation affecting drivers will not come into effect until the end of June, to make sure that the 122,000 people affected have plenty of notice to apply for and sit their test.

On RTÉ's News At One, Des Cummins said the failure rate of approximately 50% should have been taken into consideration, and he said there was now likely to be an surge in driving test applications.

This guy is IMO a cretin!
Extending until June gives 2nd prov licencees enough time to make alternative plans if they don't get or pass the test.
However, this pleb thinks that because 50% of these drivers will fail, they should be given more time to drive around alone on the roads! What kind of retarded logic is that?

Giblet wrote: »

In my case, there is no reliable alternative.

But there is an alternative...

basquille wrote: »

Sorry but the 55 pages so far are too much of a chore to read so just need a basic question answered.

What happens people who are on their first provisional license? Do they inherit the same rules as those who are on learner permits from next year?

Yes. The rules for people on 1st, 3rd and subsequent prov licences are largely the same - you need an accompanying fully licenced (for more than 2 years) driver.

Basq

Cheers for answering my question kbannon. I assumed as much.

At least this is motivation enough for me to get the finger out and apply for my test!

Stark

Kaiser2000 wrote:

No other Learner driver SHOULD be on the road unaccompanied

Oh FFS. What was the point of all the arguing in circles when you were in agreement all along? Where did I say that public transport was an attractive option or that EVERYONE should use it? All I'm saying is that people shouldn't complain when they find out they can't go on breaking the law forever.

John Mason

yes, i live in dublin but there is no direct bus, i will have to take two buses and sometimes i work until 11pm/12am in the evening, which will mean a €30/40 euro taxi fair. some times i also have to be in work for 8.30am - 9am on sunday mornings, which will mean more taxi fares, as the first bus in my area is 9.30am - the public transport in this country is a joke. i also work in mondello occasionally, can please tell me how in gods name am going to make it there from finglas for 8.30am?????

i agree totally with the changes and they needed to brought in but there should be some leeway for the people who are waiting on test dates. why they it not be brought in that as from tomorrow everyone who applies for a licence will be subject to the new rules ?? or is that just being too sensible?

_Kaiser_

irishbird wrote: »

yes, i live in dublin but there is no direct bus, i will have to take two buses and sometimes i work until 11pm/12am in the evening, which will mean a €30/40 euro taxi fair. some times i also have to be in work for 8.30am - 9am on sunday mornings, which will mean more taxi fares, as the first bus in my area is 9.30am - the public transport in this country is a joke. i also work in mondello occasionally, can please tell me how in gods name am going to make it there from finglas for 8.30am?????

Your best bet would be to get a letter from your employer and apply for a cancellation. I did this, and got a test date within 3 weeks.

Giblet

kbannon wrote: »

But there is an alternative...

Not reliable though. So it's useless if you want to say, keep your job, show up on time or any of the basic commitments you have when you have a job. There's buses every 2-3 hours. Just because it's there doesn't mean it is useful in any way.

Stark

irishbird wrote:

i agree totally with the changes and they needed to brought in but there should be some leeway for the people who are waiting on test dates. why they it not be brought in that as from tomorrow everyone who applies for a licence will be subject to the new rules ?? or is that just being too sensible?

The law hasn't changed that much. They've given leeway to people on 2nd provisionals. For everyone else, it was always illegal, it's just that now there's a greater threat of being caught.

Giblet wrote:

Not reliable though. So it's useless if you want to say, keep your job, show up on time or any of the basic commitments you have when you have a job. There's buses every 2-3 hours. Just because it's there doesn't mean it is useful in any way.

The thing is everyone knows the public transport system is **** before they start work. People will spend 4 years and a ****eload of money doing a degree that prepares them for work, but they won't spend the time and the money in training themselves to drive in preparation for getting to work. Instead they wait until they have a need to drive the following day and then try and figure it all out at everyone else's risk.

Giblet

Stark wrote: »

The law hasn't changed that much. They've given leeway to people on 2nd provisionals. For everyone else, it was always illegal, it's just that now there's a greater threat of being caught.



The thing is everyone knows the public transport system is **** before they start work. People will spend 4 years and a ****eload of money doing a degree that prepares them for work, but they won't spend the time and the money in training themselves to drive in preparation for getting to work. Instead they wait until they have a need to drive the following day and then try and figure it all out at everyone else's risk.

Oh you mean, someone elses time and money. Seeing as you can't drive without a licensed driver. Do you hire one?

Stark

Giblet wrote: »

Oh you mean, someone elses time and money. Seeing as you can't drive without a licensed driver. Do you hire one?

Yeah it's a pity there aren't people whose job it is to sit with and teach learner drivers :rolleyes:

Giblet

Cool, is there a new "Wait while you work" service? Or should people who need to use their cars wish themselves to work?

Dot dot dot

Stark

No you should keep driving illegally as you do and don't worry about whether you're fit to drive or not as your needs and desires outweigh everyone else's safety.

Or get yourself a motorbike.

People in other countries seem to manage.

Slutmonkey57b

Stark wrote: »

In my case, I chose to live close to work and cycle/bus until I had my license. That meant living in Mulhuddart for well over a year. But I'm sure living somewhere like Tallaght to commute to Citywest would offend most people's sensibilities.

Good for you! Tell me, what would have happened if you had to change jobs? Or your employer moved you to another office for a couple of months? Or, god forbid, you couldn't find a job near an area where you could afford to live? Or maybe you had children who were in school? Or maybe your partner was still working in the area? Do you split up with your partner and root the kids out of school mid-term just because you'd have to wait a year for a driving test and didn't want to drive on a second provisional?

[I await a comment of "If you're old enough to have kids you should have planned better and/or passed your test first" with baited breath and will respond by pointing out that a) you've just provided an example of someone legitimately choosing not to learn to drive until necessary, and b) pointing out that people on IVF treatment can have kids in a quicker timeframe than the government can provide a driving test.]

Where it's illegal for you to drive.

Did I say I was driving? And did I say I was on a provisional? No to either question. I suggest spending a little more time reading and thinking about what I've actually posted, rather than what witty bon mots you can come up with based on things I haven't posted. You're assuming I'm a provisional driver because I'm criticising last week's farce and arguing against your rhetoric. This being the internet, for all you know I'm a crippled bangladeshi woman posting from a cafe in singapore.

I learnt to drive in 4th year of college, where it would have been a 10 min journey to college or a 45 min trip on bus+ages waiting for the bus. You know which one I chose? The bus. Why? Because I was on a first provisional and a timid and inexperienced driver. That was despite paying €1600 pa as a named driver for a car that I only got to drive with my dad in the passenger seat. There are plenty of people in a similar situation to me though who are taking the car because they can't get past their own selfishness.

You keep arguing the point that "provisional drivers are all selfish and have no business being on the road".

Not once, that I can tell, have you actually addressed the counter-point:

The Government, through laziness, incompetance, and good old-fashioned "ah sure it's grand go on with you anyway" Irishness, has left provisional drivers with no choice. It's either "go nowhere" or "break the law just like everybody else did for the past 40 years." The people who can walk/bus/cycle to where they need to get to are in the tiny tiny minority. Yes some people could but don't. The majority simply couldn't if they wanted to.

Giblet

People in other countries don't have to contend with Dublin Bus (which I do every day btw, as I don't drive). There are plenty of unfit drivers who have licenses.

Slutmonkey57b

Stark wrote: »

The thing is everyone knows the public transport system is **** before they start work. People will spend 4 years and a ****eload of money doing a degree that prepares them for work, but they won't spend the time and the money in training themselves to drive in preparation for getting to work. Instead they wait until they have a need to drive the following day and then try and figure it all out at everyone else's risk.

What, Like you did, when you started to learn to drive in 4th year of college?, as opposed to 4 years earlier? They're a bunch of ill-brained morons, but you're not?

Stark wrote: »

Yeah it's a pity there aren't people whose job it is to sit with and teach learner drivers :rolleyes:

No, there are people to give 1-hour driving lessons. Not people to sit in the car with people who are waiting a year for a test. Not the same thing at all, and more importantly not what the intention of the provisional system was at all. The provisional system was designed to guide the learner driver for a few months until they were ready for the test. Not to nanny the learner driver for more than a year while the Government twiddled its thumbs over the problem for decades.

Stark wrote: »

No you should keep driving illegally as you do and don't worry about whether you're fit to drive or not as your needs and desires outweigh everyone else's safety.

Or get yourself a motorbike.

People in other countries seem to manage.

People in other countries don't have to wait 18 months for a test.
People in other countries weren't given mass amnesties after waiting almost 3 years for a test.
People in other countries have proper driver testing regimes.
People in other countries don't have morons like Noel Dempsey making decisions.
We're not in other countries. We're in this one.

Incidentally, doctors refer to motorbike riders as "donors" for a reason. There's no way I would have ever got on a motorbike in this country with the state of the roads and the state of Irish driving.

thefinalstage

Stark wrote: »

Yeah it's a pity there aren't people whose job it is to sit with and teach learner drivers :rolleyes:

40 euro an hour.

Stark

Slutmonkey75b wrote:

Good for you! Tell me, what would have happened if you had to change jobs? Or your employer moved you to another office for a couple of months? Or, god forbid, you couldn't find a job near an area where you could afford to live? Or maybe you had children who were in school? Or maybe your partner was still working in the area?

Fortunately my full license is accepted everywhere. Like Mastercard.

As for the rest, I've posted the arguments multiple times to multiple threads. It's illegal for you to go about the figuring out how to learn to drive thing on your own. End of. It's the same situation for people in other countries who I'm sure don't enjoy the hassle and expense of having to plan ahead with the learning to drive thing any more than we do, but have to do it anyway.

Slunkeymonkey75b wrote:

What, Like you did, when you started to learn to drive in 4th year of college?, as opposed to 4 years earlier? They're a bunch of ill-brained morons, but you're not?

Okay. I'll have to repost the exact same thing I typed.

I learned to drive in 4th year of college.
I got the bus every day to college.
I got 10 driving lessons then got put on my parents' insurance.
I was an ill trained moron.
Fortunately I was an ill trained moron who had someone accompany me each and every time I got into the car.

What's your problem with me having to learn to drive? Noone was born with a full license, we all had to work for it and struggle with the same system that the current L-drivers struggle with.

Slutmonkey75b wrote:

People in other countries don't have to wait 18 months for a test.

Neither do people in Ireland.

Slutmonkey75b wrote:

Incidentally, doctors refer to motorbike riders as "donors" for a reason. There's no way I would have ever got on a motorbike in this country with the state of the roads and the state of Irish driving.

Yet you're against improving the state of Irish driving and insist that everyone should be allowed to continue driving as they please without having to sit a test.

wil

Far be it for me to agree with you Wertz (yes I took the piiss for you not being ready for a test you got with 5 days notice after sending them a nasty email) but you should have taken that test.
A quick read over the last few pages (as much as I could be bothered) indicate your readiness may be a bit higher than you think and more than some offering advice here.

Wont requote you (too many too long) but your bits about motorway merging, defensive driving, anticipation of hazards, and a really good idea, get drivers on a bike for a few days so they can have some appreciation of what it is like to have a car fly by within inches at 100kph or even 50 and how vulnerable you are.

I am very conscious of the fact that this thread is being read by many learner drivers, so bad advice, even in AH, is not really on.

Bluetonic wrote:

You really shouldn't do this. It's up to the merging driver to merge with the traffic on the motorway, you only need to facilitate them by leaving an appropriate gap between you and the car in front.
I'm sure you'll become a better driver over time

AAArgh EeeeEK :eek:
Bluetonic where did you learn to drive?
I hope you improve soon so please stop giving bad advice to others, especially when the learner is right.

Some of the most ignorant and dangerous motorway drivers are those that dont have a clue & those include motorists on the inside lane who make no allowances for merging traffic and also those on the outside lane who block those on the inside lane making allowances for merging traffic.
Good driving practice in average traffic is to move to second lane to allow merging cars come on easily. In heavier traffic, either anticipate well ahead and move out or if this is not possible because of the lack of anticipation of others, slow sufficiently to leave a healthy gap at the
right point. Its all about anticipation & courtesy. Piling down the inside lane regardless of merging traffic is the height of ignorance and looking to cause a pileup. Bombing down the outside lane in similar circumstances may well leave a trail of destruction behind.
Either way both are very wrong.

Stark wrote:

Yet in Ireland, people seem to view "I need it because it gets me to work faster" as more important than being capable. In other countries, you wouldn't dream of getting a job, then buying a car and figuring out the driving thing as you go on your morning commute.

Absolutely agree, that's how it is in the rest of the developed world, we're not so developed as our money thinks.

Your other posts are are pretty spot on too. especially

Stark wrote:

Instead they wait until they have a need to drive the following day and then try and figure it all out at everyone else's risk.

Entrenched opinions/attitudes are hard to change, more so when they are especially convenient. It has been accepted for so long here, regardless of what the rest of the world thinks (:eek: is what they think BTW), that people convince themselves with whatever quasilogic bull they can think of, that they are right. Well obviously the rest of the developed world, that we aspired to join for so long, is wrong.:rolleyes:

The correct way is get to 17+, get lessons, pass a test, get a job/car or car/job as finances allow.

Medical analogy of the Irish way -
1- Buy a surgery, 2- look at a few medical books, 3- Start a practice/do some surgery (with/on your dad), 4 - Go to college, 5 - Pay a few lawsuits, 6 - Pass your final meds. 7 - Take down your Provisional Doctor plates.

zuluboy wrote:

it'll be interesting to see how quickly the number of cycling fatalities increase as people have no choice but to cycle in Irelands dark, wet, unlit, potholed roads! merging cars

It'll be interesting to see how the number of all road fatalities decrease as people are forced to learn to drive, might be a few years before we see the full effects though, theres a hell of a lot of entrenched attitudes out there.

It might be nice to drive again in a country where the only people on the road have a proveable right to be there. Most of the luckybaggers are due for retirement soon or done, so that leaves those at the other end to prove themselves.

At 50%, not doing too good so far.
The test in the UK is more detailed and yet many instructers get over 90% pass rates.

IreLand, nice lad but "Could do better" "Needs to study" C-
(same report card again this year)

And now for a question/observation (to see if anyone reads this far)
The adverts say that the 6 month test waiting time applies after 1st Dec.
Anyone got clarification on this?

Toto Wolfcastle

This thread is like a bloody ferris wheel. You can argue all you like about it but for the last 55 pages or so it's just been the same old thing.

It's great fun though. I mean, who doesn't love a good 'I'm a better driver than you because I read the rules of the road yesterday' or 'because I have been driving for 25 years' argument. Kind of like the 13 year olds that I teach arguing over who did better in their test.

Fact of the matter is, if you are on a 2nd provisional you should have your test by June because you should have applied long ago, until then you're grand, and all other provisionals, you shouldn't be alone anyway.

Hope the Gardai are out in force tomorrow, but somehow I doubt it.

Oh, and Zuluboy, my Dad, a fuly licenced driver with access to two cars, has cycled to and from work for 10 years, and has never been in an accident. (Touch wood) This includes using a busy roundabout, a busy dual carriageway, and then cycling through a busy city. And he gets to work faster because he isn't stuck in traffic. So maybe cycling isn't such a bad idea??

Slutmonkey57b

kbannon wrote: »

[Re: the Director of Driving Instructors pointing out the 50% fail rate]

This guy is IMO a cretin!
Extending until June gives 2nd prov licencees enough time to make alternative plans if they don't get or pass the test.
However, this pleb thinks that because 50% of these drivers will fail, they should be given more time to drive around alone on the roads! What kind of retarded logic is that?

His logic is impeccable, and again shows up Moron Dempsey for the gormless sh!t-peddler that he is. (members of IoffL will be well used to him spouting outright lies as accurate statistics so I've no fear of libelling him here)

When Dempsey is rattling on about "on demand testing" and "8 week waiting lists in May 2008" here's what he means:

We have X number of people waiting for a test.
We can do Y number of tests per week.
X/Y = Z weeks = May 2008.

What the Enlightened Gentleman above is pointing out is something Dempsey is cheerfully ignoring in the interests of making himself look like he has a clue what's going on:
Not everybody will pass first/second time, and you should have taken that into account.
Adding another 300,000 to the queue ****s up your figures something horrible.

Seth Brundle

janeybabe26 wrote: »

Fact of the matter is, if you are on a 2nd provisional you should have your test by June because you should have applied long ago, until then you're grand, and all other provisionals, you shouldn't be alone anyway.

Excellent point!

Seth Brundle

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

His logic is impeccable, and again shows up Moron Dempsey for the gormless sh!t-peddler that he is. (members of IoffL will be well used to him spouting outright lies as accurate statistics so I've no fear of libelling him here)

When Dempsey is rattling on about "on demand testing" and "8 week waiting lists in May 2008" here's what he means:

We have X number of people waiting for a test.
We can do Y number of tests per week.
X/Y = Z weeks = May 2008.

What the Enlightened Gentleman above is pointing out is something Dempsey is cheerfully ignoring in the interests of making himself look like he has a clue what's going on:
Not everybody will pass first/second time, and you should have taken that into account.
Adding another 300,000 to the queue ****s up your figures something horrible.

What Dempsey has done in his U-turn is provide an additional 8 months to people to either pass a test or arrange additional means to get from A to B.
The "Enlightened Gentleman" is suggesting that 8 months isn't fair on those who do a test and fail and that they should be given more time to drive freely on the roads (after being deemed incompetent to drive!).
Is that too much to understand?

Slutmonkey57b

Stark wrote: »

Fortunately my full license is accepted everywhere. Like Mastercard.

I refer to the time when you chose to cycle and bus/live close to work. When you didn't drive and didn't have a license. Answer that hypothetical question, not the one I didn't ask.

Incidentally, Lidl don't accept mastercard.

As for the rest, I've posted the arguments multiple times to multiple threads. It's illegal for you to go about the figuring out how to learn to drive thing on your own. End of. It's the same situation for people in other countries who I'm sure don't enjoy the hassle and expense of having to plan ahead with the learning to drive thing any more than we do, but have to do it anyway.

Okay. I'll have to repost the exact same thing I typed.

I learned to drive in 4th year of college.
I got the bus every day to college.
I got 10 driving lessons then got put on my parents' insurance.
I was an ill trained moron.
Fortunately I was an ill trained moron who had someone accompany me each and every time I got into the car.

What's your problem with me having to learn to drive? Noone was born with a full license, we all had to work for it and struggle with the same system that the current L-drivers struggle with.

I don't. What I have a problem with is you, in one post berating people who don't learn to drive until they're about to leave college because they should have started learning when they were 18, and then stating that you didn't start learning until you were about to leave college. As opposed to when you were 18.
Person A chooses not to learn to drive until the age of 22.
Person B chooses not to learn to drive until the age of 22.
Person B is you - you are a responsible citizen! Person A is a moron!

Neither do people in Ireland.

Yet you're against improving the state of Irish driving and insist that everyone should be allowed to continue driving as they please without having to sit a test.

Not once have I stated any opposition to improving the state of Irish driving. In fact, I've suggested that all Irish drivers, BMW drivers especially, should be retested before getting any kind of licence, including reissues full licenses.

Not once have I stated that anyone should be allowed to continue driving as they please without sitting a test. What I have stated is that the Government has made it effectively impossible for people who want to comply with the law to do so.

Slutmonkey57b

kbannon wrote: »

What Dempsey has done in his U-turn is provide an additional 8 months to people to either pass a test or arrange additional means to get from A to B.
The "Enlightened Gentleman" is suggesting that 8 months isn't fair on those who do a test and fail and that they should be given more time to drive freely on the roads (after being deemed incompetent to drive!).
Is that too much to understand?

Read his comments again then. He specifically said that the 50% fail rate wasn't taken into account when calculating the optimistically projected waiting list times. This means that when Dempsey says "We'll have the waiting list down to 8 weeks by May 2008" he is pulling a figure out of his arse that he thinks makes him look good, when all it actually does is prove that the guy is still an out-and out make believe artist.

Stark

Slutmonkey75b wrote:

In fact, I've suggested that all Irish drivers, BMW drivers especially, should be retested before getting any kind of licence, including reissues full licenses.

What a dumb sweeping statement to make. No better than what you'd expect from the likes of Gay Byrne.

I won't bother replying to the rest of your posts because I don't think you even know what you're arguing anymore and anyone who reads them can easily see how they farcical they are.

Slutmonkey75b wrote:

Not once have I stated that anyone should be allowed to continue driving as they please without sitting a test. What I have stated is that the Government has made it effectively impossible for people who want to comply with the law to do so.

Great. Then after all that, we're in agreement. I never said getting a license was easy.

Slutmonkey57b

Originally Posted by janeybabe26 View Post
Fact of the matter is, if you are on a 2nd provisional you should have your test by June because you should have applied long ago, until then you're grand, and all other provisionals, you shouldn't be alone anyway.

Excellent point!

Except the waiting list just went up because 300,000 people have just applied and will be messing up the queues with letters from their employer. And the failure rate wasn't taken into account. But apart from that, great point.

Toto Wolfcastle

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Except the waiting list just went up because 300,000 people have just applied and will be messing up the queues with letters from their employer. And the failure rate wasn't taken into account. But apart from that, great point.

Dude you should have put in a sarcastic smiley!!


But I'll say thanks anyway!!

Slutmonkey57b

Stark wrote: »

What a dumb sweeping statement to make. No better than what you'd expect from the likes of Gay Byrne.

I thought the BMW driver comment would get to you.

I won't bother replying to the rest of your posts because I don't think you even know what you're arguing anymore and anyone who reads them can easily see how they farcical they are.

That'll make a great difference to all the previous times you haven't been replying to what I've actually said then.

nesf

Lads, there's no need to get personal.

Stark

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

I thought the BMW driver comment would get to you

Because you think I drive a BMW (for the record I drive a small car)? Or because you threw in a random nonsense generalisation just to rile me? In which case, you admit that you're trolling this thread?

Slutmonkey57b

Stark wrote: »

Because you think I drive a BMW (for the record I drive a small car)? Or because you threw in a random nonsense generalisation just to rile me? In which case, you admit that you're trolling this thread?

I'm not trolling this thread at all. Other posters seem to be consistantly commenting on my common sense in this thread (with one or two exceptions). But since you've equally consistantly ignored all the questions I've asked, and have attacked other people's driving test planning, even where their planning is the same as your own, I figured I might check and see what you would respond to.

Incidentally, I thought you weren't replying to my posts anymore? I have no preference either way, but if you are going to reply I'd much prefer you address the numerous questions I've asked you and the contradictions in your postings I've exposed.

beanyb

Ok, so my 1st provisional license just expired and I need to apply for what will now be a learner's permit. I've already applied for my test, but God only knows when I'll actually get it. I'm bloody terrified that because I'll be getting a learner's permit they'll tell me that I cant do my test for 6 months despite the fact that I've been driving for 2 years. Sure, it could easily be longer than 6 months until I actually get my test anyway, but I'm still worried that I'll be screwed over here.

I know that logic would make it seem as if I wouldnt have to wait because of my previous license. But, logic doesnt seem to be Noel Dempsey's strong point...

If only I'd applied last week...

Stark

From the driving test website:

Q: My first provisional licence is about to expire and I will be renewing it after the implementation date for the new rule; will the learner permit I receive be considered a first time learner permit holder?

A: No, as you already held a provisional licence you are not considered to be a first time learner permit holder and the six month rule will not apply to you.

So you're okay.

There was a completely retarded message on the site last time I checked but I can't seem to find it now. It said anyone whose test came up within the 6 months would forfeit the test. Like WTF? Could they not just make sure to schedule the test at a later date for people. Maybe the fact that I can't find it now means they've seen a bit of sense and rethought that.

Seth Brundle

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Read his comments again then. He specifically said that the 50% fail rate wasn't taken into account when calculating the optimistically projected waiting list times. This means that when Dempsey says "We'll have the waiting list down to 8 weeks by May 2008" he is pulling a figure out of his arse that he thinks makes him look good, when all it actually does is prove that the guy is still an out-and out make believe artist.

Oh I see now.
I interpreted it a different way. I presumed he meant that we should accommodate those who failed the test and were deemed not good enough to drive alone. What he meant was that because people are ill-prepared for the test we should make extra allowances for the fact that 50% of applicants who complete the test aren't deemed competent and need to do the test more than once and therefore should be allowed to drive alone.
Oh wait!!?!?

The minister has given the 122,000 2nd provisional licence holders until June to complete the test. He also claims that those who currently have applications in will be tested by March. I suspect that gives enough time to get the less able drivers in that bunch to get thier retests in!
However, Mr. Cummins should worry more about the fact that 50% of applicants are being deemed incompetent and not about wanting them to have the ability to drive around the place freely in case they decide to do another test!

wil

Giblet wrote: »

People in other countries don't have to contend with Dublin Bus (which I do every day btw, as I don't drive). There are plenty of unfit drivers who have licenses.

And even more that dont.

Dragging everyone down to the same level is what is keeping us in this mess.

As for Dublin bus, I agree, hate buses, when I am not driving, I cycle.
Do both about equally. Dont need a licence for a bike and keeps you fit too. No significant carbon footprint and very rarely the cause of pedestrian fatalities. Wish same could be said of buses.

clancy

l3LoWnA wrote: »

So what happens if there's a lady/gentleman out with their spouse for a few drinks. One of them is a qualified driver, the other has a Learner Permit. The "Learner" is the designated driver. The qualified driver gets absolutely HAMMERED drunk and they go home, with the "Learner" driving.

He/she is a learner, and IS accompanied by a qualified driver, just an extremely unconcious & drunk qualified driver! Is this illegal too?!

If you had looked into this matter in more detail you would know that this new law entitles gardai to breathalise the qualified driver also...

Wossack

If they start fast-tracking the second provisional licence holders to the top of the queue to try and meet grandmaster Berties 'guarantee', even those who havent bothered their arse applying till now - Im gonna be hella-pissed.

Stark

Wossack wrote: »

If they start fast-tracking the second provisional licence holders to the top of the queue to try and meet grandmaster Berties 'guarantee', even those who havent bothered their arse applying till now - Im gonna be hella-pissed.

Aye, it wouldn't be at all fair to the people who went to the trouble of applying before they found out about the planned enforcement of the law.

the_syco

"A person who is a first time holder of a learner permit (provisional licence) cannot take a driving test for a six month period after the commencement date of the permit (provisional licence)."

Like there's no way in hell that they'll be able to get a test within 6 months. Waiting lists are still a bloody joke.

wil

Well up to this announcement, recently this was proving to be not true.
Saw several posts on here recently of people getting their test too soon for them and what to do, eg Got my test in 4 weeks etc
And another (I wont repeat name again to save his blushes) got a test in 5 days after sending a nasty email about the waiting time, then he had to decline because he wasnt ready, then they said he could have one in about a month.
So this excuse was rapidly becoming just that, an excuse.

What Mr Dempsey did, badly handled or not, was wake up 420000 people who were very comfortably carrying on to assume, regardless of all other consequences, that the one thing they relied upon, every day, the car, was a god given right just because they had paid money for it, now they would have to earn that right.

Now with all the commotion, I am not sure how the waiting lists will fare, but given the extra 8 months, there should be no problem for anyone actually serious about learning to pass a simple competency test.

togster

wil wrote: »

Well up to this announcement, recently this was proving to be not true.
Saw several posts on here recently of people getting their test too soon for them and what to do, eg Got my test in 4 weeks etc
And another (I wont repeat name again to save his blushes) got a test in 5 days after sending a nasty email about the waiting time, then he had to decline because he wasnt ready, then they said he could have one in about a month.
So this excuse was rapidly becoming just that, an excuse.

What Mr Dempsey did, badly handled or not, was wake up 420000 people who were very comfortably carrying on to assume, regardless of all other consequences, that the one thing they relied upon, every day, the car, was a god given right just because they had paid money for it, now they would have to earn that right.

Now with all the commotion, I am not sure how the waiting lists will fare, but given the extra 8 months, there should be no problem for anyone actually serious about learning to pass a simple competency test.

QFT.

That was funny about the guy who got it in 5 days and had to decline..:D

On a more serious note. Quit moaning. There are people on here moaning even though they have moved the deadline.

jhegarty

wil wrote: »

Well up to this announcement, recently this was proving to be not true.
Saw several posts on here recently of people getting their test too soon for them and what to do, eg Got my test in 4 weeks etc
And another (I wont repeat name again to save his blushes) got a test in 5 days after sending a nasty email about the waiting time, then he had to decline because he wasnt ready, then they said he could have one in about a month.
So this excuse was rapidly becoming just that, an excuse.

There are two types of people in this country... those who quietly wait their turn (47 weeks in the wrong area) and those kick and scream and get it in one week.....


its the same with anything in government , if your on a waiting list ring your td or joe duffy to get moved up the list....

the problem happens when everyone wants to be moved up the list , you end up back where you started....

I can see a whole new cottage industry starting up here.


"Professional passingers" people who get paid just to accompany a learner driver while they drive from A to B.

I remember when I passed my test in 197* (god I feel old:() As I was one of the first in my group of friends to pass, I suddenly became very popular, I got taken to cinemas, pubs, clubs anywhere my learner mates wanted to go... they paid for me to get in as well;).

In those days, there was no restriction on how many years the experienced driver needed, I passed on one day the next I was the passinger with one of my learner mates.
Useless at it! I tell him not to tailgate, he ignores me car in front slows down my "pupil" drives into the back of it!:mad:

All came to an end when they passed.

Stark

Deleted User wrote: »

I can see a whole new cottage industry starting up here.


"Professional passingers" people who get paid just to accompany a learner driver while they drive from A to B.

I reckon there'll be an initial pain period where everything goes to ****, but after that, the waiting lists should drop a good bit as people bother to show up for their tests. Following that, insurance premiums for named drivers on provisional licenses should drop to a fraction of what they are now as people learning to drive no longer have to subsidise commuters and boy racers. Once that happens, it should be practical for people to start learning to drive as soon as they turn 17 and are still at home with their parents to drive them, rather than having to wait years to afford the insurance and finding themselves living miles from the family home.