Beware the Patton Flyer!

KC61

This problem has nothing whatsoever what to do with Transport 21.

The problem is basically

1) The length of time it takes the Department to review/approve licence applications - which in many cases (Patton Flyer / Dublin Bus route 141) is bordering on the ridiculous - being over TWO years!!!!

2) The whole manner in which the bus network in Dublin is designed, managed and co-ordinated - Yes you've guessed it - it isn't!

This is the role that the DTA needs to take over (urgently), removing it from the Civil Service and putting it into the hands of transport professionals.

However, we are STILL waiting on the Government Bill establishing the DTA.

is_that_so

KC61 wrote: »

This problem has nothing whatsoever what to do with Transport 21.

The problem is basically

1) The length of time it takes the Department to review/approve licence applications - which in many cases (Patton Flyer / Dublin Bus route 141) is bordering on the ridiculous - being over TWO years!!!!

2) The whole manner in which the bus network in Dublin is designed, managed and co-ordinated - Yes you've guessed it - it isn't!

This is the role that the DTA needs to take over (urgently), removing it from the Civil Service and putting it into the hands of transport professionals.

However, we are STILL waiting on the Government Bill establishing the DTA.

I "misspoke":o What I was trying to say was that if something like this can't be resolved what hope is there for Transport 21? Although IMO everything should be part of Transport 21 including this. If we are going to have integrated transport, public and private should be working in tandem.

HORSE999

My Eye Caught The Article In The Times On Monday And I Could Not Believe What I Was Reading I Used This Service Last Week And It Was Excellent So I Was Horrified To Read The Article In Relation To The Legality Of This Service As I See It The Only Reason This Service Is Illegal Is Because The Outdated Transport Act Is An Antiquated Dinosaur. It Has Nothing To Do With Standard Of Product,insurances Etc, Even The Minister Noel Dempsey Said In The Article That It Was A Good Service!!! So Take Your Finger Out Of Your Backside Minister And Issue The Correct Paperwork To This Visionary Company And Lets Get Some Healthy Competition Into The Market.

AlekSmart

We live in Interesting times indeed.:)

With one fell swoop,well ok then...two fell swoops..the first was actually FORCING the Dept to poke at the Gardai,Trevor Patton has managed to rock the entire Governmental Structure of Èire to it`s foundations :rolleyes:

The central issue here has rapidly morph`d from mundane Bus route licencing into stuff that casts considerable doubt over the functionality of an entire Government Department if not the Entire concept of Government itself as traditionally precticed in the State.

Essentially Trevor Patton is saying that the Departments decision making process is beyond what Trevor considers acceptable.
Trevor has therefore decided not to bother with writing to TD`s and Councillors as well as failing to "Talk to Joe" and instead has decided to front-it-up to the same Department.

So far so Good.

However Trevor....(great opportunities in that name),clever Trevor even,must surely recognise the risks inherent in making this stand for the rights of the common man.

He has rather strikingly distanced his operation from the "traditionals,ie Paul Morton,Bartons,McConns and the Cora Collins/Kavanagh faction who have decided to "go-legal" in their attempts to secure recognition of their "rights".

Now the Department and the Government has a BIG problem...If Trev carries out his threat to operate a further 4 new routes in his own unique manner then the "Traditionals" will have to rapidly decide whether to abandon the Legal route and jump on Trevors magic bus instead.

Trevor Patton,as a businessman,must have weighed up his options carefully before deciding to go head on with a 60+ year old administrative mechanism.

Perhaps Trevor read somewhat more into Noel Dempsey`s statement regarding the "Changed situation" in Dublins Public Transport debate than the "Traditionals" did.

No matter really,as he must now be prepared for some serious accounting for his company`s actions and his decision to ignore the legal requirements may yet be his downfall,or that of the holder of his company`s Certificate of Professional Competency.

The Department of Transport too is now caught in a bind.
Up until now the threat of EU backed legal judgements has had the DoT "Seniors" blinking in it`s glare.
The new situation sees the Dept now having to Pee or get off the pot,as its wait and see policy is no longer tenable from either of the opposing viewpoints.

As I see it Trevor Patton may well turn out to be Irelands Freddie Laker....the man who invented the Open Skies policy...but....where is He now....????

Ham'nd'egger

HORSE999 wrote: »

My Eye Caught The Article In The Times On Monday And I Could Not Believe What I Was Reading From I Used This Service Last Week And It Was Excellent So I Was Horrified To Read The Article In Relation To The Legality Of This Service As I See It The Only Reason This Service Is Illegal Is Because The Outdated Transport Act Is An Antiquated Dinosaur. It Has Nothing To Do With Standard Of Product,insurances Etc, Even The Minister Noel Dempsey Said In The Article That It Was A Good Service!!! So Take Your Finger Out Of Your Backside Minister And Issue The Correct Paperwork To This Visionary Company And Lets Get Some Healthy Competition Into The Market.

After much deciphering your message.....

No, the service is illegal and unlicensed because the operator is running it contrary to the laws he has to adhere to and not from the law being wrong.

A new license system can be introduced today but until one has the license required to run his route, then the service isn't legit on a legal basis. Nobody doubts that the laws concerning the application process for the license is outdated and poor; other operators in the bus market play by the rules and Patton hasn't made a case as to why he doesn't need to.

If his point is to say the law is an ass, fair play to him but it hasn't sorted the issues yet.

Run_to_da_hills

I am curious to know is the Patton Flyer technically fully covered by insurance? An insurance company will require a full drivers license for the said vehicle which I presume each driver has and also an honest declaration on the proposal form.

The said route that the Patton Flyer is traveling on would also have to be declared to the insurance company. The owner would obviously have not have declared that the route from Dalkey to the Airport was unauthorized and illegal. Is there small print that we may not be aware of? Most insurance policies have small print warnings about false declarations.

Victor

Assumming the vehicles and drivers are licenced, I can't imagine an insurance problem.

Run_to_da_hills

Victor wrote: »

Assumming the vehicles and drivers are licenced, I can't imagine an insurance problem.

It would also be down to a declaration. I drive a Ford Transit, I insure it for "own goods" ie my own personal tools and products as opposed top other goods (Which is more expensive). If I go off and fill my van with "other goods" ie parcels from a courier company and have an accident it could jeopardise my policy. Likewise this bus company must specify its business and its route.

trellheim

Depends. Is the PSV "operated in accordance with the law" <-

'tis a moot point in any event. The Gardai have no wish to do the DOT's dirty work, DOT could implement an SI or an enabling act in short order to up the penalty to €10,000 per diem or some other proper fine but have not done so. Why not ?

either :

because DOT are bringing a new act later this year with the DTA bill

or

they can't be arsed



I'm plumping for B! :D:D

AlekSmart

Just as trellheim sez...I`m with "B" also

The insurance situation is interesting as these policies are generally covered by something called "in ubermis fidae" which from memory means "In the utmost of good faith".

This means that the Insurer is accepting the policy declaration as submitted without further enquiries,however should the declaration subsequently prove to be dodgy then all bets are off.

I rather suspect Trevor Patton may be playing with fire here and his decision may well colour the view of any new licencing authority towards further applications.
(Rumour has it that Route Licencing under the new system will become the responsibility of a TOTALLY seperate entity to the Department of Transport or The DTA....my guess is the NCT people,who have carved out a very efficient niche for themselves in motor vehicle administration)

Trevors balancing act could be put to the test in a split second should (God Forbid) one of his vehicles be involved in a serious Road Traffic Accident.
Should that event occur on Dublin Airport Authority property then we can expect a long running saga as the DAA will want to escape any enjoining actions centreing around it knowingly facilitating an unlicenced operator to ply for business on its property.

The current situation is currently hurting no one (Except the original applicant for the route) but that as I say could explode in everybody`s face if an incident/accident occurs.

How many betting men have we here..????? :eek:

HORSE999

ANY UPDATE RE THE PATTON FLYER SEEMS TO BE GONE COLD!!! IS THE SERVICE STILL RUNNING??

dewsbury

The flyer is still flying.

Seems to be doing better business too...

aggromerchant

see a few ridiculous remarks from joe soap and a couple of others. reckon some FACTS might be in order.

patton flyer is 100% RELIABLE

patton flyer is 500% CHEAPER

patton flyer PROVIDES work

as for joe bloody soap. had to wait in the cold for 30 minutes.. well blow me off. why did'nt you just get a coffee like anyone else and bloody thing would have been there and all warmed up before you knew it. course if you were at a rugby or football match freezin your midgets off, for 3 hours.. that would have been ok....YEAH...dont talk bloody nonsense.

as for the other arsehole. reckons they operate outside the "LAW". you mean like the bankers laughin their arses off at everybody, while they play golf in portugal right now. or the guys in fianna fail who put us there in the first place. patton flyer provides work. what do you do...????:cool::cool::cool:

aggromerchant

aggromerchant wrote: »

as for joe bloody soap. had to wait in the cold for 30 minutes..
as for the other arsehole. reckons they operate outside the "LAW".

Seriously, the thread was started 3 years ago.

Reported for personal abuse.

Cookie_Monster

Is that you Trevor? Certainly has the same attitude

aggromerchant

oh dear. did i offend someone. dont want to hurt anyones feelings. do i now ? just someone had to stand up for a GREAT service for local people getting ripped off by taxi drivers for yonks. dunlaoghaire to dublin airport. 8 euros on the patton flyer. would hate the community to loose out on the great company.. taxi 75 euros. there you go. better watch my p's and q's from now on eh ?? :cool::cool::cool:

markest

The following is from worldtaximeter.com

Estimated Fare using meter at 11:10

Distance: 22.27 km. | Duration: 38 min.

first kilometer 4.10 €
14.0 km. x 1.03 € per km (tariff A) 14.42 €
8.27 km. x 1.35 € per km (tariff 11.18 €
waiting in traffic (~14 min.) 5.87 €

Total 35.57 €
on a Sunday it would be 43.69 €

Remember that these are only estimated fares. Actual fares vary depending on traffic, weather and other unforeseen conditions. Tolls are not shown. The information provided on this site is intended for guidance purposes only.

In fact, I took 2 people from Marine Road to the airport yesterday via the Port Tunnel (their choice) stopping at an ATM at the petrol station before the Merrion Gates.
The journey began at 16:28 finished at 17:00 distance was 22.5km and the fare came to €32.10. They obviously paid the toll fees for the Eastlink €1.70 and Port Tunnel €10 so they paid €43.80 in total, as we don't have the luxury of going through the tunnel free of charge.
This is only one example but I think €75 as suggested above is stretching it.

munchkin_utd

aggromerchant wrote: »

... just someone had to stand up for a GREAT service for local people getting ripped off by taxi drivers for yonks. dunlaoghaire to dublin airport. 8 euros on the patton flyer. would hate the community to loose out on the great company.. taxi 75 euros......

So its good then that anyone can set up anything against the law, so long as there are people that are happy that they are getting a service that they otherwise wouldnt get?

Should I be able to open an unlicenced bar, and operate at whatever hours I choose, just because theres a demand?
Should I be able to open a taxi company and run without taxi plates, just because I can get fares?
Should I be able to build a house without planning permission, against the law, just because it suits me?

Bankers might have gotten up to no good, but its no excuse for the rest of us to just IGNORE the law.

Anyone on for topping my mother in law? If i can prove that the community benefits then is it ok to kill her? The law aparantly doesnt matter so long as a greater good can be proven!!

"Pattons Law" we could call it.

JHMEG

In fairness to Patton, the Dept of Transport "lost" their original application.

Cookie_Monster

746 Airport to Dun Laoghaire = €2.20

Beat that!

"Pattons Law" we could call it.

:D:D

Reminds me of Brannigan's Law :pac:

Cookie_Monster

aggromerchant wrote: »

oh dear. did i offend someone. dont want to hurt anyones feelings. do i now ? just someone had to stand up for a GREAT service for local people getting ripped off by taxi drivers for yonks. dunlaoghaire to dublin airport. 8 euros on the patton flyer. would hate the community to loose out on the great company.. taxi 75 euros. there you go. better watch my p's and q's from now on eh ?? :cool::cool::cool:

well then you'll certainly welcome the new Aircoach service that being setup from Dalkey to the Airport (legitimately too)

Nicer buses & more frequent too.

Ham'nd'egger

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

well then you'll certainly welcome the new Aircoach service that being setup from Dalkey to the Airport (legitimately too)

Nicer buses & more frequent too.

And 100% legal:)

Calina

I'm locking this thread on the grounds that zombie threads should not be resurrected.

If anyone has anything to say about bus services from south County Dublin to the airport, they can open a new thread.

Victor

aggromerchant wrote: »

patton flyer is 500% CHEAPER

Ah, the Irish independent school of mathematics.

Imagine Tom sells chocolate bars for €1.00.

Down the road, Dick wants to encourage trade, so he sells chocolate bars for €0.90. Dick is 10% cheaper than Tom.

Further down the road, Harry wants to encourage trade even more, so he sells chocolate bars for €0.50. Harry is 50% cheaper than Tom.

Now, Bob is a complete nut case and is selling chocolate bars for €0.01. Bob is 99% cheaper than Tom.

If one extends this, the most one can go is 100% cheaper than Tom, which would be free. Being more than 100% cheaper than something else is mathematically impossible.

---

Now, lets look at it the other way around:

Bob is selling chocolate bars for €0.01.

Harry sells chocolate bars for €0.50. Harry is 5000% more expensive than Bob.

Dick sells chocolate bars for €0.90. Dick is 9000% more expensive than Bob..

Imagine Tom sells chocolate bars for €1.00. Tom is 10000% more expensive than Bob.