A question for theists...

Sleepy

One of the things atheists are regularly criticized for are statements along the lines of 'but how can you believe something so stupid?'.

What I'd like to ask is: can you see why an atheist/agnostic sees it as stupid to believe in a deity?

biko

Wouldn't this have been more appropriate in one of the believers foras? Or do they come in here too?

Dave!

biko wrote: »

Wouldn't this have been more appropriate in one of the believers foras? Or do they come in here too?

The more masochistic of them come here regularly And the more masochistic of atheists often go there

Dades

Sleepy wrote:

can you see why an atheist/agnostic sees it as stupid to believe in a deity?

I'd like to personally distance myself from that oddly put question, while respecting Sleepy's right to ask it.

Zombrex

Sleepy wrote: »

One of the things atheists are regularly criticized for are statements along the lines of 'but how can you believe something so stupid?'.

What I'd like to ask is: can you see why an atheist/agnostic sees it as stupid to believe in a deity?

I suppose it would be important to separate out the difference between a stupid idea and a stupid person.

I think the ideas of western religion are stupid. Its nonsense, an all powerful supreme being decides to meddle around with gardens in the middle east, sending his "son" down to be tortured to death to save us from sin. Nonsense. I'm sure it made sense to the group of nomadic herders in the middle east when the universe was a few thousand miles long and they believed only a handful of people existed with the heavens being really near.

I don't believe theists who believe this are stupid though.

I believe that they compartmentalize and convince themselves that this does actually make sense because they want it to be true so badly that they let the idiotic nature of the stories slide.

An example I've used in the past is the mother who is convinced her son is innocent of some crime, despite the mountains of evidence that he is guilty. The mother isn't stupid. She doesn't believe her sons bullsh*t story about the police framing him because she has a few marbles lose. She convinces herself that this story of his makes sense because she wants it to be true, the alternative is not something she is prepared to face.

Sleepy

That's pretty much my understanding of it too Wicknight, otherwise smart people choosing to ignore logic and reason for whatever reason they so badly want to believe in a god.

What I'm wondering is does someone who's made this choice realise why others consider what they're choosing to believe to be so stupid.

Zillah

Most of them aren't stupid, they're a special kind of crazy. Head-fected with ancient evil.

Oh yes

Nevyn

Zillah wrote: »

Most of them aren't stupid, they're a special kind of crazy. Head-fected with ancient evil.

Oh yes

Damn my ears were burning, now I know why.

Hi Zillah!

Sleepy wrote: »

One of the things atheists are regularly criticized for are statements along the lines of 'but how can you believe something so stupid?'.

It does happen and I consider it rude but not as rude as those that say a person is stupid or thick for having faith or a belief in deity.

It is one thing to say a persons opinion is stupid while respecting their right to have an opinion even if it is stupid it is another thing entirely to say that they are stupid for having that opinion.

Zillah wrote: »

What I'd like to ask is: can you see why an atheist/agnostic sees it as stupid to believe in a deity?

Yep and that opinion is as far as I am concerned the same as a christian saying that my Gods are satan or that thier god is the only one.

I don't are if they think that it is silly to have the beliefs that I have but there is a difference between saying that and saying I am uninformed, un enlightened or thick or backward.

I don't expect people who have not had the same experience I have to understand my life why I do the things I do, believe the things I believe.

Thats fine if a person wants to think that all gods are peoples imaginary friends but there is no need to be rude about it.

Respect goes a long way in dealing with people wether that be respecting that someone has faith or respecting that they do not.

PDN

Sleepy wrote: »

What I'd like to ask is: can you see why an atheist/agnostic sees it as stupid to believe in a deity?

Yes I can see why they think that. But I try to look beyond their bigotry and debate with them instead.

robindch

PDN wrote:

But I try to look beyond their bigotry

Have you ever seriously considered that we might be closer to the truth than you?

Sangre

what has bigotry got to do with it?

PDN

Sangre wrote: »

what has bigotry got to do with it?

That's the usual reason why anyone thinks others are stupid for believing something different.

If a Christian thinks atheists are stupid then I think bigotry is the reason. The same goes for Jews who think Muslims are stupid. It also applies to atheists who think theists are stupid.

PDN

robindch wrote: »

Have you ever seriously considered that we might be closer to the truth than you?

Of course. I would be a bigot not to consider such a possibility. However, I don't think that is the case.

Sleepy

Nowhere in my initial post did I say theists were stupid.

I do consider faith to be stupid in the sense that it's completely based on choosing to believe what you want to.

If anyone could give me a logical defense for the existence of a deity, I might give their ideas more credence but I've yet to come across anyone capable of doing even this much, never mind providing a rational for believing that their particular religion (or their personal variation of that religion) is the "right" one.

I can understand someone being frightened of mortality, feeling like they need a crutch in life or simply wanting to believe in a nice promise to the point that they'll choose to believe it. What I'm wondering is can those that do make these choices see why someone else might consider it silly?

Zombrex

Sleepy wrote: »

That's pretty much my understanding of it too Wicknight, otherwise smart people choosing to ignore logic and reason for whatever reason they so badly want to believe in a god.

What I'm wondering is does someone who's made this choice realise why others consider what they're choosing to believe to be so stupid.

Yeah its an interesting question.

TBH I'm amazed that theists believe the stuff they do, like on the Creationists thread. I cannot fathom how they can say some of the stuff they say without realising that it is nonsense. Which is where the compartmentalisation comes in. I think part of them does realise its nonsense, yet another part, the part that would be effected by that, just shuts itself off from this.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

That's the usual reason why anyone thinks others are stupid for believing something different.

Sleepy doesn't think you are stupid. He thinks the things you believe in are stupid.

The question then is why then do you believe in stupid things.

And as I mentioned its probably not because you have rationally looked at these things (you aren't stupid after all), but for other reason such as the desire for these things to be true, that lets you by-pass the ridiculousness of it all and just accept it as is.

It does get interesting though when theists attempt to rationalise their beliefs. A classic example is BC trying to argue that the fact that no Roman's or Jews recorded that Jesus didn't resurrect is strong evidence that he did in fact resurrect.

Now that is, to put it mildly, a stupid argument. Its a nonsense argument. Its like saying that if you don't record now that I'm not levitating my cat with my mind that is evidence I was levitating my cat with my mind.

That is not to say BC is stupid for accepting it, because he is not accepting it as an act of rational thought. He is accepting it because he is trying to convince himself that his beliefs are some way supported, again in the same way that a mother may try and convince herself that the police are framing her criminal son.

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

Sleepy doesn't think you are stupid. He thinks the things you believe in are stupid.

The question then is why then do you believe in stupid things.

Little bit of a leap of logic there.

The question is why do you & Sleepy (include as many of the 7 dwarfs as you wish, although I would guess you think Dopey is a theist) believe opposing viewpoints to be stupid.

There are several possible answers.
1. You may be exceptionally wise and well informed and therefore all other belief systems apart from your own really are stupid.
2. You may only think you are exceptionally wise and well informed, in which case your arrogance blinds you to the truth in other belief systems.
3. You may be bigoted against other belief systems (dragged unwillingly to mass too many times) and therefore are unwilling to acknowledge the truth in other belief systems.

I suspect, if we were so inclined, we could fill many pages of a long and meandering thread debating which of these possibilities are actually correct.

And as I mentioned its probably not because you have rationally looked at these things (you aren't stupid after all), but for other reason such as the desire for these things to be true, that lets you by-pass the ridiculousness of it all and just accept it as is.

Of course it is equally possible that your desire for certain things not to be true causes you to reject them and to characterise them as stupid.

If I was indulging in wishful thinking then I would be a Unitarian/Universalist. I would not for a minute choose to believe that people I love are going to hell because I 'desire such things to be true'. Instead I would believe in a religion where there is no hell, where I could drink and fornicate as much as I wanted with no adverse consequences, and where everyone else would have to make regular large financial contributions to PDN.

Shane_C

Dades wrote: »

I'd like to personally distance myself from that oddly put question, while respecting Sleepy's right to ask it.

Good answer

Scofflaw

PDN wrote: »

If I was indulging in wishful thinking then I would be a Unitarian/Universalist. I would not for a minute choose to believe that people I love are going to hell because I 'desire such things to be true'. Instead I would believe in a religion where there is no hell, where I could drink and fornicate as much as I wanted with no adverse consequences, and where everyone else would have to make regular large financial contributions to PDN.

TV evangelist, then.

cordially,
Scofflaw

PDN

Scofflaw wrote: »

TV evangelist, then.

Or Pope.

Scofflaw

PDN wrote: »

Or Pope.

Ah, the good old Borgias! You're living in the past, to quote the song.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zillah

Thaedydal wrote: »

Damn my ears were burning, now I know why.

Hi Zillah!

Hi

Thaedydal wrote:

Zillah wrote:

What I'd like to ask is: can you see why an atheist/agnostic sees it as stupid to believe in a deity?

Libel!

PDN wrote:

That's the usual reason why anyone thinks others are stupid for believing something different.

Or, y'know, evidence. Or the entire lack thereof.

Tell me, if I were to assert that cats and dogs were different breeds of the same species, would it be bigoted of someone to consider me stupid or ignorant for believing such a thing? I assume not. Why then, do claims gain a special place free of such judgement once they involve the man in the sky?

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

Of course it is equally possible that your desire for certain things not to be true causes you to reject them and to characterise them as stupid.

Say me and Sleepy are bigoted. Say we are self hating atheists who long for the loving hand of God that Christians claim to experience. Does that mean the beliefs of your religion aren't stupid? No, it actually has no effect on that either way.

And I think you release that, which is why you are trying to make the issue about bigotry in the hope that me and Sleepy wont' continue lest it appear that we are bigoted.

The question is how do you not realise that is what you are doing?

This type of thing happens all the time in the Creationists thread. JC or Wolfsbane will come up with some new convoluted argument as to why the big bang has been disproved by a paper some grad student published in 1967.

The question the rest of us reading that are left thinking is how do they not realise how stupid that argument is. They publicly state that its not stupid at all, often with a "ha we have disproved evolution!" That might be the public face of their argument, but internally they must on some level realise that is they are resorting to this the foundation of their beliefs has a problem.

PDN wrote: »

If I was indulging in wishful thinking then I would be a Unitarian/Universalist. I would not for a minute choose to believe that people I love are going to hell because I 'desire such things to be true'.

Of course you would.

The foundation of all religion is the idea that there is something wrong with us, all of us. The religion then places itself as a force that can fix or save us from this.

Most people, on some level, believe that there is something wrong with them, even if they recognise this is not a rational belief. A super model will look into a mirror and see someone ugly. The kindest man in the world frets over how rude he was to the bus driver. The only people who don't worry about what they perceive is wrong with them are psychopaths.

Religion feeds on this, and manipulates it. Offers supernatural solutions to very ordinary problems, such as loneliness, fear, anger, pain.

Of course you believe that people you love are going to hell because you believe you aren't For you to be save some people must not be saved, because otherwise there would be no processes to your salvation. You need to believe that you are saved from what ever it is that you fear about life and want to be saved from.

The ultimate question though is how do you not know this is what you are doing?

I honestly don't understand, and I don't think Sleepy does either. Of course by the virtue that you appear not to realise this you aren't in the best position to tell us. But for atheists like myself it is fascinating.

aidan24326

Scofflaw wrote: »

TV evangelist, then.

cordially,
Scofflaw

He does tick alot of the boxes...

PDN I look forward to seeing you on the god channel sometime soon.

Sleepy

PDN wrote: »

Little bit of a leap of logic there.

The question is why do you & Sleepy (include as many of the 7 dwarfs as you wish, although I would guess you think Dopey is a theist) believe opposing viewpoints to be stupid.

There are several possible answers.
1. You may be exceptionally wise and well informed and therefore all other belief systems apart from your own really are stupid.
2. You may only think you are exceptionally wise and well informed, in which case your arrogance blinds you to the truth in other belief systems.
3. You may be bigoted against other belief systems (dragged unwillingly to mass too many times) and therefore are unwilling to acknowledge the truth in other belief systems.

I suspect, if we were so inclined, we could fill many pages of a long and meandering thread debating which of these possibilities are actually correct.

Of course it is equally possible that your desire for certain things not to be true causes you to reject them and to characterise them as stupid.

If I was indulging in wishful thinking then I would be a Unitarian/Universalist. I would not for a minute choose to believe that people I love are going to hell because I 'desire such things to be true'. Instead I would believe in a religion where there is no hell, where I could drink and fornicate as much as I wanted with no adverse consequences, and where everyone else would have to make regular large financial contributions to PDN.

If considering your beliefs to be stupid makes me a bigot, sure I'm a bigot. I don't hate you for having them, consider them to make you a bad or inherrantly stupid person but I do reserve the right to call them stupid.

I do find your choice of wording quite interesting to be honest. I'm a 'bigot' for calling your religion bunkem and 'unable to acknowledge the truth' in belief systems because I'm either arrogant or I was dragged to church too many times. The notion that I've just looked at the facts, available evidence (or lack thereof) applied logic and reason and adopted the only sensible position on the matter is elevated to 'exceptional' wisdom while you relegate atheism/agnosticism to a 'belief system' in an attempt to make them sound like theisms.

Splendour

Sleepy wrote: »

One of the things atheists are regularly criticized for are statements along the lines of 'but how can you believe something so stupid?'.

What I'd like to ask is: can you see why an atheist/agnostic sees it as stupid to believe in a deity?

Yep, as a Christian I can totally understand this as we are told in 1 Corinthians 1,18:

"The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

So it is perfectly acceptable for an athiest to think that believing in the God as stupid. But we're 'fools for Christ' and that's fine with me...

Zombrex

Splendour wrote: »

Yep, as a Christian I can totally understand this as we are told in 1 Corinthians 1,18:

"The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

So it is perfectly acceptable for an athiest to think that believing in the God as stupid. But we're 'fools for Christ' and that's fine with me...

"Because it says so in the Bible" isn't really understanding, is it?

lostexpectation

PDN wrote: »

Little bit of a leap of logic there.

The question is why do you & Sleepy (include as many of the 7 dwarfs as you wish, although I would guess you think Dopey is a theist) believe opposing viewpoints to be stupid.

There are several possible answers.
1. You may be exceptionally wise and well informed and therefore all other belief systems apart from your own really are stupid.
2. You may only think you are exceptionally wise and well informed, in which case your arrogance blinds you to the truth in other belief systems.
3. You may be bigoted against other belief systems (dragged unwillingly to mass too many times) and therefore are unwilling to acknowledge the truth in other belief systems.

I suspect, if we were so inclined, we could fill many pages of a long and meandering thread debating which of these possibilities are actually correct.

your assumptions are based on atheist being a belief system ,and there is such a thing as valid belief systems, you know better so you're just being ....

PDN

lostexpectation wrote: »

your assumptions are based on atheist being a belief system ,and there is such a thing as valid belief systems, you know better so you're just being ....

No, my assumption is based on Wicknight's beliefs constituting a belief system. Of course I may be mistaken and there may be no coherency to his beliefs whatsoever. He may just believe a lot of random and contradictory stuff in which case he would have no belief system and your criticism would be justified.

lostexpectation

PDN wrote: »

Little bit of a leap of logic there.

If I was indulging in wishful thinking then I would be a Unitarian/Universalist. I would not for a minute choose to believe that people I love are going to hell because I 'desire such things to be true'. Instead I would believe in a religion where there is no hell, where I could drink and fornicate as much as I wanted with no adverse consequences, and where everyone else would have to make regular large financial contributions to PDN.

see PDN here you go again , there's your religious beliefs and the real world where there can be consequences in this life for excesses.

PDN you really do have a GOD complex.

and don't quote the devil at me this time!

PDN

lostexpectation wrote: »

see PDN here you go again , there's your religious beliefs and the real world where there can be consequences in this life for excesses.

PDN you really do have a GOD complex.

The quote of mine is clearly referring specifically to religious beliefs and the spiritual consequences of activities governed by religious beliefs.

Of course physical and social consequences of excessive actions exist in everyday life, and those consequences may be beneficial or adverse depending on the culture. I thought that was obvious enough to go without saying, but I obviously underestimated the risk of anyone being either so desperate as to deliberately quote me out of context, or so dim as to genuinely not even get the context. I will try to spell it out more clearly next time.