No receipt given by therapist

Infoseeker

I'm not sure if this is the most appropriate forum to be posting this but it seemed the closest to the backround to my query.

Basically I have been seeing an analyst for a few months now to help me deal with some personal issues. I see this person once a week and each session costs €60. This price was agreed in a somewhat casual manner where the practice has a "sliding scale" based on what the person can afford. I cannot clearly recall exactly how but this figure was settled on.

The thing is that I do not get a receipt every time I hand over this fee. When I asked for one my analyst said said that the practice is reluctant about giving out receipts and that if I am requesting a receipt with the intention of claiming back tax, that unfortunately the group practice is not "recognised" in the way a GP is and therefore they do not qualify for the same tax exemptions etc as a doctor's practice does.

The reluctance to give me a receipt is making me uncomfortable as I feel undermined as a consumer who is paying for a service and as such is entitled to a receipt in exchange for my payment. But specifically in the context which this service is being sought I feel that this is interfering in me talking freely and confidentially with this person when in the backround I am feeling disgruntled that I am being denied what is my basic right. And as a lot of personal issues have a lot to do with assertiveness or lack of, this is bringing up a whole new dilemma in terms of me versus my analyst.

So my question is can anyone give me the official line about whether there is ever a valid reason why a consumer is not oblidged to receive a recipt. Also does anyone know the backround around private counselling practices and whether there is some issue around "certified" practices as being genuine sources of treatment for emotional issues and so may affect them receiving the necessary support from the government. I should point out also that this analytic practice was recommended to me by a well establish and respected cognitive behavioral therapist.

Thanks

dudara

More suited to the Consumer Issues forum. Hope someone can help you over there.

dudara

Infoseeker

Ok thanks dudara

mikemac

If you have issues with assertiveness (as do I), then maybe this an elaborate ploy to force you to demand a receipt.;)

I'm not sure about the tax part. Surely a counsellor is fully qualified in much the same way as a GP. I'm not sure.

When I first read your post it screamed tax fraud.
Is this counsellor a fulltime professional (with a recognized degree or just a dodgy internet qualification)? Is this an ordinary PAYE worker who an interest in the subject and does sessions as nixers?

Ultimatly, you should demand receipts.
What if your partner or even a judge ordered you to do couselling. You'd need the receipts then so why not now

Edit: I don't like the sound of this "sliding scale". If you are a regular client then you should be getting a discount so be sure to get the table of rates on paper

Good luck!

Pete4779

Infoseeker wrote: »

I'm not sure if this is the most appropriate forum to be posting this but it seemed the closest to the backround to my query.

Basically I have been seeing an analyst for a few months now to help me deal with some personal issues. I see this person once a week and each session costs €60. This price was agreed in a somewhat casual manner where the practice has a "sliding scale" based on what the person can afford. I cannot clearly recall exactly how but this figure was settled on.

The thing is that I do not get a receipt every time I hand over this fee. When I asked for one my analyst said said that the practice is reluctant about giving out receipts and that if I am requesting a receipt with the intention of claiming back tax, that unfortunately the group practice is not "recognised" in the way a GP is and therefore they do not qualify for the same tax exemptions etc as a doctor's practice does.

The reluctance to give me a receipt is making me uncomfortable as I feel undermined as a consumer who is paying for a service and as such is entitled to a receipt in exchange for my payment. But specifically in the context which this service is being sought I feel that this is interfering in me talking freely and confidentially with this person when in the backround I am feeling disgruntled that I am being denied what is my basic right. And as a lot of personal issues have a lot to do with assertiveness or lack of, this is bringing up a whole new dilemma in terms of me versus my analyst.

So my question is can anyone give me the official line about whether there is ever a valid reason why a consumer is not oblidged to receive a recipt. Also does anyone know the backround around private counselling practices and whether there is some issue around "certified" practices as being genuine sources of treatment for emotional issues and so may affect them receiving the necessary support from the government. I should point out also that this analytic practice was recommended to me by a well establish and respected cognitive behavioral therapist.

Thanks

There is no central "certification" system for private counselling services. They are either part of the public service or not. Unlike private psychiatric services (i.e., by medical doctors registered with the Medical Council), private counselling (i.e., non-psychiatric non-medical) services are not regulated and have no obligations. This is where the private "analyst" (not a real qualification) / "therapist" (again not a qualification) creates a grey area: they are entirely unregulated. You need to know exactly what qualifications the person has and what treatments they are authorised to do.

It is of course true that the service told you that they are not "recognised" as a GP practice would be: the GP practice is recognised by the HSE and the GP him/herself is obligated to be registered and certified by the Medical Council. I.e., your conselling service is not a GP service, so of course will have different tax entitlements.

You are absolutely right to feel a little odd about not getting a receipt - something is not quite right. As for claiming back tax yourself on treatments, I think it depends on the treatment and who is doing it. That is something to check with the revenue. What they may have been telling you is that the treatments they provide are not recognised as suitable tax-claimable treatments by the revenue.

Sliding Scale: this is quite common in many services, and not unusual. Not providing a receipt for services however, IS unusual, and seems a little tax dodgy.

Sponge Bob

Go to the revenue for advice, they are very decent when approached direct about these things and will allow it if its a 'course of treatment' .

The_Conductor

Sponge Bob wrote:

Go to the revenue for advice, they are very decent when approached direct about these things and will allow it if its a 'course of treatment' .

Not necessarily- the mental health arena is a bit of a minefield- if your 'therapist' is a professional and you were referred to him/her by a doctor/consultant- then it probably, not definitely, might be tax deductable. If its someone with a degree in psychology doing a nixer on the side- then you can be pretty sure 1. they are most probably not declaring the income and 2. even if they are- that its probably not a recognised medical expense.

Do ring the Revenue Commissioners- they are more than happy to discuss things informally over the phone, and a mine of useful information.

Infoseeker

Thanks for responses. They've brought up some good suggestions I didn't think of. I will call the Revenue Commissioners to see what their stance is on the subject.


The analyst did say something to the effect that a receipt would not be of any use if I were intending to claim tax back. But really the reason for my request is for the principle of the matter: that I just want a receipt because I feel I should get one.

I am sure that this is not down to a game to test my assertiveness either. I have asked for a receipt on two occasions. The first time was soon after we started having our sessions; I asked for a receipts, my request was acknowledged along with a similar excuse but no outright denial and the subject was not raised until asked for it during our last session, again with the same response.

Victor

As I understand it, Revenue are being reasonably liberal when it comes to courses of treatment recommended by a doctor. This however, will not be accepted if the therapy stretches into the recreational therapy realm (which doesn't seem to be your case).

I get the impression most people don't look for receipts in such cases, but you are perfectly entitled to.

foggy_lad

if you request a receipt for goods or services you purchase then they are OBLIGED to provide one and there is no acceptable reason they would not give a receipt!

antoinolachtnai

Since when is anybody obliged to give a receipt? It is good practice, certainly, but it is by no means compulsory. On the other hand, it is a requirement to keep books of account.

One option is to start paying by cheque. Ask the bank for a chequebook if you don't have one. With a cheque, there is a record of the payments.

I think I see where you are coming from on this. You expect a therapist in a situation like this to have high standards, since you are placing so much trust in them. It's a bit disappointing if they seem to have sloppy accounting. It would be a bit different if it was just an individual you were dealing with, but by the sounds of it, you're dealing with a significant practice.

After the revelations of the last week in the psychotherapy business, I think they should be sorting out their internal controls and recordkeeping.

Sonnenblumen

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Since when is anybody obliged to give a receipt? It is good practice, certainly, but it is by no means compulsory. On the other hand, it is a requirement to keep books of account.

One option is to start paying by cheque. Ask the bank for a chequebook if you don't have one. With a cheque, there is a record of the payments.

I think I see where you are coming from on this. You expect a therapist in a situation like this to have high standards, since you are placing so much trust in them. It's a bit disappointing if they seem to have sloppy accounting. It would be a bit different if it was just an individual you were dealing with, but by the sounds of it, you're dealing with a significant practice.

After the revelations of the last week in the psychotherapy business, I think they should be sorting out their internal controls and recordkeeping.

Absolutely wrong, every purchaser of any product/service must be provided with a receipt on request. If VAT is charged the receipt must also clearly state the applicable VAT rate , the actual amount of VAT charged and the vendor's VAT nr.

OP - simply request a receipt 'fro your records', you do not need to explain what purposes etc. Check with Revenue if you can claim tax relief on fees.

alanceltic

Im not too sure on the receipt issue being a legal requirement (my hunch is that it is not), as for the vat element of the receipt i know for sure that a retailer/service provider is not required under the current legislation to detail either the vat rate or the vat amount charged on the receipt, as per a previous poster "proper books of account" are required so you are incorrect in your post

Pete4779

alanceltic wrote: »

Im not too sure on the receipt issue being a legal requirement (my hunch is that it is not), as for the vat element of the receipt i know for sure that a retailer/service provider is not required under the current legislation to detail either the vat rate or the vat amount charged on the receipt, as per a previous poster "proper books of account" are required so you are incorrect in your post

I don't think they are obliged to automatically issue a receipt, but I would say it's pretty unlikely that they can refuse to give a receipt if it's requested.

E.g., get your car serviced - you pay the guy and get no receipt. You ask for it and he says what, no? WOuldn't happen.

Sonnenblumen

alanceltic wrote: »

Im not too sure on the receipt issue being a legal requirement (my hunch is that it is not), as for the vat element of the receipt i know for sure that a retailer/service provider is not required under the current legislation to detail either the vat rate or the vat amount charged on the receipt, as per a previous poster "proper books of account" are required so you are incorrect in your post

What are you talking aboiut "current legislation"?, you do not know what you're talking about, and giving wronmg advice. Also proper books has nothing whatsoever to do with receipts.

I repeat if a consumer requests a receipt, the vendor must provide one, if the consumer requests a VAT receipt, then the relevant VAT details must be provided. I cannot imagine what circumstance a vendor would refuse a receipt, to do so would be a breach of the law aside from being a highly unusual but damaging to business as well.

antoinolachtnai

Where is this law which requires a vendor to provide a receipt?

If I buy a product from a street vendor, I will not get a receipt. Equally, if I buy a product from a vending machine I will not get a receipt. If I make a phone call from a call box I will not get a receipt. If I top up my luas smartcard I will not get a receipt.

Sonnenblumen

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Where is this law which requires a vendor to provide a receipt?

If I buy a product from a street vendor, I will not get a receipt. Equally, if I buy a product from a vending machine I will not get a receipt. If I make a phone call from a call box I will not get a receipt. If I top up my luas smartcard I will not get a receipt.

If you can't peel a banana, does that mean you're a monkey?

foggy_lad

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Since when is anybody obliged to give a receipt? It is good practice, certainly, but it is by no means compulsory. On the other hand, it is a requirement to keep books of account.

One option is to start paying by cheque. Ask the bank for a chequebook if you don't have one. With a cheque, there is a record of the payments.

I think I see where you are coming from on this. You expect a therapist in a situation like this to have high standards, since you are placing so much trust in them. It's a bit disappointing if they seem to have sloppy accounting. It would be a bit different if it was just an individual you were dealing with, but by the sounds of it, you're dealing with a significant practice.

After the revelations of the last week in the psychotherapy business, I think they should be sorting out their internal controls and recordkeeping.

alanceltic wrote: »

Im not too sure on the receipt issue being a legal requirement (my hunch is that it is not), as for the vat element of the receipt i know for sure that a retailer/service provider is not required under the current legislation to detail either the vat rate or the vat amount charged on the receipt, as per a previous poster "proper books of account" are required so you are incorrect in your post

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

If you can't peel a banana, does that mean you're a monkey?

yes indeed the vendor is required by law to provide a receipt and whether this is requested or not they must still have the capability to provide a reciept either printed by a till or handwritten with of course a duplicate to be kept by the vendor!

antoinolachtnai

Do you have a source for this?

foggy_lad

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Do you have a source for this?

try checking out http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Learning_Zone/ and you should find i am right

cazzy

If they were carrying on a bona fide business that the tax man and other interested parties knew 100% about they would have no problem writing a receipt. receipt books cost a few quid in easons.

I have always been given receipts from anything like this without asking (from music lessons to swimming lessons to anything that I pay cash for that I do not claim back)

Id ask if you can have one - you dont need to say why you want it. Work could be reinbursing you the expenses for all they know.

I would have though that anyone providing this type of personal service would have to issue receipts - showing their VAT registration number - if requested.

If you ring the revenue office ya might get them in trouble though.

foggy_lad

doctors schools chemists all businesses and even your local scout or girl guides troop will give a receipt for any payment they recieve! even a newsagents selling receipt books will give a receipt if asked! any legitimate business will furnish a receipt on request!

antoinolachtnai

foggy_lad wrote: »

try checking out http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Learning_Zone/ and you should find i am right

I have searched this site. Where does it say anything about it being a requirement to provide a receipt? (And it's hardly an authoritative source.)

foggy_lad

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I have searched this site. Where does it say anything about it being a requirement to provide a receipt? (And it's hardly an authoritative source.)

check out the "sale of goods(supply of services) act 2006" could be wrong but think thats the act! do the research yourself it is not very hard to find info on reciepts in this act

Sonnenblumen

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Do you have a source for this?

Stop being a pain and let's move on!

mikemac

People are getting bogged down in the law now.

1. Pay cash OP only if you get a receipt.
2. If they won’t give a receipt, offer to pay by cheque.
3. And if they won’t accept cheque, tell them to give a receipt and you’ll consider not reporting them to the Revenue.

Brian Cowen is short of cash at the moment so the Revenue will be only too happy to audit this guys practice.

The_Conductor

It sounds very like the "therapist" is doing this on the side, as oppossed to having a practice. Perhaps the OP could clarify this?

antoinolachtnai

We are getting bogged down in people being expected to back up the things they say.

I really don't think there was a Sale of Goods (Supply of Services) Act in 2006, but maybe someone can give me a reference for it.

sapper

Agree that it would help if the OP clarify the nature of the practice.

My wife is starting out as psychotherapist. For the most part counsellors/psychotherapists are sole traders who are expected to file their own tax returns. You may visit them in a counselling centre, but these are often just collectives of therapists renting rooms in the centre to see clients.

Therefore it is totally possible for a therapist who is charging 60 an hour, and potentially paying 5/10/15 euro back to the counselling centre for use of resources/room to avoid paying tax on it.

I talked to an accountant about this during the year and he advised me that my wife should issue receipts to clients and file a tax return. It would not surprise me if many therapists shy away from the whole tax thing altogether and run a mile if anyone asks for receipts.

Not sure if it's tax deductable, but as stated above, the revenue seems to be pretty loose about these things as long as the amount claimed is small

Infoseeker

Well €60 is small to the Revenue Commissioner but to me it's a sizeable sum to be handing over each week. I resigned myself to not getting a receipt after my first request for a receipt went nowhere but I have a number of large bills as well as rent to pay and it has been making me feel annoyed that this is just another way in which my money is being dissipated with nothing to show for it in terms of even a slip of paper acknowledging my payment.

I do have a good relationship with my analyst in terms of talking through the things that are on my mind. It would be very tiring to have to start from scratch with someone else and I don't think I would be willing to do it again at this stage.

I tend to feel uncomfortable and embarassed quibbling over money with people but this is now making me feel undermined and taken advantage of. And this is the very thing I should be sharing with my analyst!

I guess I've just got to be assertive on this point and either get the receipt which I've requested or stop attending this practice which is disappointing.

IncredibleHulk

alanceltic wrote: »

Im not too sure on the receipt issue being a legal requirement (my hunch is that it is not), as for the vat element of the receipt i know for sure that a retailer/service provider is not required under the current legislation to detail either the vat rate or the vat amount charged on the receipt, as per a previous poster "proper books of account" are required so you are incorrect in your post

Some time ago I made enquiry re receipts and, as far as I can recall, was told there is no legal right to one. Who is the therapist and where is the practice?