Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

If a TD was snorting cocaine would it matter to you?

Options
2

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    Jackie laughlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭Jackie laughlin


    Look, Oscar is raising THE issue and it was the point of the book which initiated this public controversy until the gutter press hi-jacked it and turned it into a story about a politician.

    All of the "terribly respectable" middle class people who purchase drugs for use at dinner parties etc. are contributing to gangsterism in Ireland.

    The legalisation of drugs is a separate debate.


  • Options
    #33
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Mike,
    maybe sins wasn't the correct word. I meant if, from your actions taking mind altering substances, harm is directly caused to another person, you should be punished.

    I can think of one major political incident caused by an alcoholic minister - Thundering disgrace etc.

    can you think of any illegal drug related incident or even any incident caused by abuse of controlled drugs?


    oscarBravo, how many degrees of separation are you going to go back to tie a cocaine user to a murderer?
    would you blame all drivers for road deaths?
    would you say td's who allow us troops transit through the country en route to Iraq bear any responsibility for war crimes committed by these same american troops?

    What about if a TD financially supported the Catholic church while clergy were raping and abusing people - any responsibility attatching to the TD in this case?
    Or publican TD serving someone drink knowing the drunk was going to drive home and potentially kill someone?
    Or a public representative raising money for terrorist organisations - the goal of which is to kill people - drug dealers are in it for the money, the murder is a an unacceptable side effect of course.
    There are ways to link everyone to a crime - not all as blatant as drug dealing but results are as bad or worse- like propping up Sadam Hessein by selling meat to Iraq when he was gassing kurds and generally being a nice guy or selling arms to the IRA to point out activities of two men elected Taoiseach after the fact.

    Realpolitik kicks in at some stage with every one. where your personal line is is for you to decide.

    On a lighter note, just think how much corruption we wouldn't have exposed if a certain supermarket/gym owner didn't take some cocaine and get paranoid...
    every cloud a silver lining and all that.


  • Options
    #34
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    oscarBravo, how many degrees of separation are you going to go back to tie a cocaine user to a murderer?
    would you blame all drivers for road deaths?
    With all due respect, that's the most pathetic argument imaginable. It's effectively saying "the money I gave a criminal scumbag for my cocaine might not fund guns that could get someone killed, so my conscience is clear". It's also not even a particularly useful analogy, even given the inherent weakness of analogies.


  • Options
    #35
    Jackie laughlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭Jackie laughlin


    Caraway,
    A more appropriate comparison would be the purchase of stolen goods. Many middle class **** support criminality by opting for a cheap TV, others do it by buying drugs.


  • Options
    #36
    Gonzo_Fiend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41 ✭Gonzo_Fiend


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    My side of the fence?

    Let's say a TD decides to use cocaine. He buys it from a local scumbag, who in turn buys it from a gang member. That gang member uses the proceeds to buy a Glock, which is used to kill a rival gang member - oh, and a passerby who happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    Now, you can argue that the TD should work towards legalising cocaine, which may have the effect of taking the armed scumbags out of the picture. I, however, would argue that as long as the armed scumbags are in the picture, the TD is complicit in the murder of the innocent bystander.

    Whatever side of the fence I'm on, if your lawbreaking is financing murder, it's wrong. If and when it becomes completely legal to use cocaine, and none of the proceeds finance murder, then I'll have a different attitude to it.

    Thats like saying people who go to church are supporting paedophiles.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    As a matter of interest, what would your views be if the TD in question was cultivating Coca plants and manufacturing his own cocaine for personal use?

    (yes, I know it's not a realistic situation)


  • Options
    #38
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,782 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    to answer the op question: yes it would.


  • Options
    #39
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Jackie laughlin wrote: »
    Caraway,
    A more appropriate comparison would be the purchase of stolen goods. Many middle class **** support criminality by opting for a cheap TV, others do it by buying drugs.

    If the Celtic Tigers middle classes are buying knock off tellys out the back of a Hiace van then I must be in a different country.

    Simple chain really

    Grower-refiner-distributor-buyer/wholsaler-buyer/local-seller/local-user.

    Mike.


  • Options
    #40
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Mike,
    harm is directly caused to another person, you should be punished
    So if you voted labour, and people died cos you voted labour, you should be punished?

    =-=

    Oh, and Mike: what's the best way to combat the lack of drugs (read: price increase) coming into the country?

    Answer: raise your salery by €38,000. He looks too happy most of the time, esp doing such a sh|te job :/


  • Options
    #41
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    I have no idea how much talc 38k will buy an inner city Dub this weather.

    Mike.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Gonzo_Fiend wrote: »
    Thats like saying people who go to church are supporting paedophiles.
    No, it's not. Going to church isn't illegal. Churches (for all their faults) are not organisations that exist primarily to support paedophiles.
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    As a matter of interest, what would your views be if the TD in question was cultivating Coca plants and manufacturing his own cocaine for personal use?
    It wouldn't be as serious an issue. I'd still have reservations about it - if I discovered that one of my employees was a habitual cocaine user, I'd fire him.


  • Options
    #43
    Jackie laughlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭Jackie laughlin


    Syco,
    That's an interesting way of stating the question.

    If a person voted Labour knowing that some harm would come of it, then of course that person is responsible.

    Anyone who buys illegal drugs knows perfectly well that they are financing gangsterism and they are responsible.

    Mike,
    Do you really think that the purchasers of stolen goods are all poor? The hi ace seller has largely disappeared. The deals on stolen goods are now done in pubs, restaurants, at parties, in work etc. It's quite pervasive. I'm surprised you are unaware of it.


  • Options
    #44
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    I move in different circles to you. Clearly not posh enough!

    Mike.


  • Options
    #45
    Tea drinker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Tea drinker


    the_syco wrote: »
    So if you voted labour, and people died cos you voted labour, you should be punished?
    /

    Well, to certain extent, yes.
    Look at it another way, if you voted for the Nazi party and people got killed?????????

    edit: Most rational people, If having found people got killed because of their vote, they would probably change their vote next time


  • Options
    #46
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    So if you voted labour, and people died cos you voted labour, you should be punished?

    I said direct harm - I mean if person A drinks a load of vodka, starts a fight and injures a person or person B takes a load of coke and starts a fight and injures a person or person C takes no drugs and is just a badly inclined person, starts a fight - punish them with the full force of the law for fighting and injuring another person

    If personA and personB manage to take the drug of their choice but through taking the drug, no harm comes to another person/property/etc. then concentrate resources on the harm-to-others-causing-people.

    If you mean the british labour party... well quite a lot of people have been killed from the policies they hold.
    They have also helped increase the world's supply of heroin by invading and removing the govt of the country who were eradicating it....

    There's murdering gangsters everywhere. only some of them are selling drugs.


  • Options
    #47
    Corega
    Registered Users Posts: 857 ✭✭✭Corega


    Yes, it would matter to me, I'd find it comforting to know that politicians are normal too, and not a bunch of holier than thou panderers. I've found in all of my 22 years on this planet that coke, smack and a plethora of other illegal niceties are both used and abused by every cross-section of society, so I would neither be surprised or outraged if a politician was found to be doing it. If he or she is however stupid enough to be caught sniffing the magic vicks then they should be prosecuted like everybody else. It's risk versus reward baby.


  • Options
    #48
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    I said direct harm - I mean if person A drinks a load of vodka, starts a fight and injures a person or person B takes a load of coke and starts a fight and injures a person or person C takes no drugs and is just a badly inclined person, starts a fight - punish them with the full force of the law for fighting and injuring another person
    If you knew that person A had a habit of beating people up when drunk, but bought him a load of drink anyway, would you feel the teeniest bit responsible?
    Carawaystick wrote: »
    If personA and personB manage to take the drug of their choice but through taking the drug, no harm comes to another person/property/etc. then concentrate resources on the harm-to-others-causing-people.
    You really think TDs source their cocaine from guaranteed-not-to-lead-to-gangland-murder sources?


  • Options
    #49
    Jackie laughlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭Jackie laughlin


    Mike,
    Yeah, that's probably true.


  • Options
    #50
    Mick86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 982 ✭✭✭Mick86


    mike65 wrote: »
    I have no idea how much talc 38k will buy an inner city Dub this weather.

    Mike.

    Apparently One Gramme of Cocaine (75%-87% pure) fetches between €60 and €80.

    €38,000 will get you about 1.5 Kgs.

    http://www.smm.org/buzz/blog/cocaine_prices_around_the_world


  • Options
    #51
    Gonzo_Fiend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41 ✭Gonzo_Fiend


    Mick86 wrote: »
    Apparently One Gramme of Cocaine (75%-87% pure) fetches between €60 and €80.


    75% - 87% talcum powder???


    Sounds about right...


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    Mick86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 982 ✭✭✭Mick86


    Gonzo_Fiend wrote: »
    75% - 87% talcum powder???
    Sounds about right...

    I wouldn't know. And I'm not that worried.


  • Options
    #53
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Corega wrote: »
    Yes, it would matter to me, I'd find it comforting to know that politicians are normal too, and not a bunch of holier than thou panderers. I've found in all of my 22 years on this planet that coke, smack and a plethora of other illegal niceties are both used and abused by every cross-section of society, so I would neither be surprised or outraged if a politician was found to be doing it. If he or she is however stupid enough to be caught sniffing the magic vicks then they should be prosecuted like everybody else. It's risk versus reward baby.
    I like your way of thinking.


  • Options
    #54
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    With all due respect, that's the most pathetic argument imaginable. It's effectively saying "the money I gave a criminal scumbag for my cocaine might not fund guns that could get someone killed, so my conscience is clear". It's also not even a particularly useful analogy, even given the inherent weakness of analogies.

    You do have a fair point, I have heard that sort of argument all my life. It's variants are often used by drug-dealers to justify themselves, "sure if I don't give it to him he'll only buy it off someone else" etc.

    Would I have a problem with TDs using coke? Yes, because automatically it makes them hypocrites and like it or not they are funding criminals. Would I have a problem with them growing cannabis and openly smoking it, not at all. It's not the substances I have a problem with, but the social impact of it (often because they are illegal.)

    Mick,
    Apparently One Gramme of Cocaine (75%-87% pure) fetches between €60 and €80.

    You must be on the stuff if you believe that statistic. A line of 87% pure coke would probably put you on your arse, that's nearly Bolivian quality, and they only shoot small bits up their nose with a spoon. Cocaine in Ireland is the worst in Europe I'd say, Spain would have the best. In Ireland you would be looking at about 10-20% costing about €200 for three and a half grammes (eighth oz). The stuff is rarely mixed with talc either, glucose is the most prevalent. Washing powder is sometimes used, often with fatal effects.


  • Options
    #55
    pretty*monster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭pretty*monster


    The hypocricy of it would bother me hugely if the TD was a member of government.

    But I don't know why there's an 'if' in the question. TDs are doing cocaine. Dublin is awash with coke.


  • Options
    #56
    Jackie laughlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭Jackie laughlin


    That's the point exactly. The minister is a side issue. Dublin's layer of middle class **** fund gangsterism and I've yet to talk to one MCW who accepts this. Crime for them is what "scangers" and "hoodies" do, not people who have dinner parties and just want a little extra fun.


  • Options
    #57
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    The idea that if you are middle class you are expected to be more law abiding than anyone with less money than you is kind of like an abstract form of prejudice....


  • Options
    #58
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    I expect everyone to be law-abiding, Middle class, working class; I don't care. The idea that funding gangsterism is excusable because it's done at the comfortable remove of a middle-class lifestyle is what I find disturbing.


  • Options
    #59
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    In other countries the increased availability of coke and its usage appears to go with boom times .People with money want to get high and have the money to spend,not caring that the risk of addiction is high .


  • Options
    #60
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I expect everyone to be law-abiding, Middle class, working class; I don't care. The idea that funding gangsterism is excusable because it's done at the comfortable remove of a middle-class lifestyle is what I find disturbing.
    Drug use exists in every class of society and I don't think any one class views it as any more excusable than another. Why single out the middle class?

    Also, I'd like to ask you, is all the coffee, chocolate etc. you buy fair trade? Are none of the clothes you buy made in sweatshops? Much of our money ends up in the hands of exploititive organisations anyway(unless you're very careful about what you buy, which most people aren't), what makes purchasing drugs so different?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    Mick86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 982 ✭✭✭Mick86


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Mick,
    You must be on the stuff if you believe that statistic. A line of 87% pure coke would probably put you on your arse, that's nearly Bolivian quality, and they only shoot small bits up their nose with a spoon. Cocaine in Ireland is the worst in Europe I'd say, Spain would have the best. In Ireland you would be looking at about 10-20% costing about €200 for three and a half grammes (eighth oz). The stuff is rarely mixed with talc either, glucose is the most prevalent. Washing powder is sometimes used, often with fatal effects.


    I bow to your greater experience of the trade in illegal narcotics.

    I presume if you buy high grade stuff then you continue to dilute it down along the line. Even someone as naive as me wouldn't expect someone to bung a gram of pure stuff up his nose.:rolleyes:


Advertisement