Over 1,100 firearms stolen since 2003

fishdog

This was in the paper yesterday. Don't "shoot the messenger" !! Any comments??




SUNDAY BUSINESS POST October 28 2007

Over 1,100 firearms stolen since 2003 by John Burke


More than 1,100 firearms have been stolen in house burglaries and from gun dealers over the last four and a half years, according to figures obtained by Fine Gael.

In many cases, the weapons – mainly shotguns and rifles – are believed to have been stolen to order by criminals who may have been familiar with people’s membership of gun clubs or their involvement in shooting activities. The remaining robberies are believed to have been opportunistic.

The new Department of Justice figures, which were released following a parliamentary query by Fine Gael TD Bernard Durkan show that 206 firearm thefts occurred last year. There were 249 thefts in 2005, 243 the previous year and 292 in 2003. There were 109 firearm thefts in the first half of this year.

It is likely that as many as 1,300 firearms may actually have been stolen over the period, as the figures do not list the number of guns stolen per incident. Where more than one firearm was stolen the theft is counted as one incident only.

The figures suggest that there is a large supply of firearms – particularly shotguns – available to organised criminals, who may be using them in violent crimes and armed robberies. While a breakdown of the types of firearms stolen is not available, it is understood that senior gardai have been placed on alert about the theft of handguns by organised gangs, following the reintroduction of pistols to private ownership here two years ago.

An internal from Garda headquaters to superintendents nationwide, which was sent to each of the 25 Garda divisional areas last year, warned that homes of several hundred handgun owners could be targeted by crime gangs. Shotguns constitute the vast majority of firearms in private ownership.

Bananaman

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Rew

1100 out of 220,000 and secure stogage has only recently been mandated. Its a fairly scaremongering article

IRLConor

It's a pity they don't have more data like:

1. The exact breakdown between rifles, shotguns, pistols, etc.
2. How many were stolen from secure storage.
3. How many were stolen while the owner was present (and if the firearms were securely stored, whether the owner was forcibly coerced to hand over the keys).
4. How many were recovered after they were stolen (and what proportion were intact and what proportion had been used for crime).
5. How much ammo has been stolen (broken down by type and calibre - for example 50,000 rounds of ammuntion is scary if it's all centerfire rifle ammuntion and not that scary if it's all air pellets).

That data (particularly items 2 & 3) would be very useful for all of us to figure out our security arrangements.

bullets

IRLConor wrote: »

It's a pity they don't have more data like:

you'd probably get the all
to familiar excuse......

"could be obtained only by a disproportionate expenditure of Garda time and resources"


~B

fishdog

Rew:

1100 out of 220,000 and secure stogage has only recently been mandated. Its a fairly scaremongering article

I take your point. but according to the artical:

There were 109 firearm thefts in the first half of this year.

Also regardless of when secure storage was mandated anyone that owns a firearm has a responsibility to ensure its security.

I know that there are alot of sensationalist articals, but this is not exactly from a tabloid and there is an explanation as to where the figures have come from.

How many were stolen while the owner was present (and if the firearms were securely stored, whether the owner was forcibly coerced to hand over the keys).

I would like to know if this has ever happened to someone that is not an RFD


In fact all of IRLConors points would tell us alot

IRLConor

bullets wrote: »

"could be obtained only by a disproportionate expenditure of Garda time and resources"

Maybe I should volunteer to do it for them.

Edit: actually, isn't the CSO supposed to be doing this stuff anyway?

bunny shooter

Bananaman wrote: »

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I think the press are being used to prime 'Joe Public' for a ban on pistols ?

fishdog

I think the press are being used to prime 'Joe Public' for a ban on pistols ?

Dont think so, there is nothing to suggest from the artical that pistols are easier to steal than any other firearm. I would think that in general they are far harder to steal.

It does bring the secure storage of some firearms into question though.

bunny shooter

I am a pistol owner and if the other half sees that article i won't be a pistol owner too much longer !

Dr Strange

Has anyone seen the small article in todays Sunday Independent on stolen licensed firearms in the Republic? It seems to suggest that the gardai would like to see a return of the 'court based' licence renewals.

fishdog

Did not see it. Can anyone post a scan of it?

Rovi

Here's a cut-n-paste from www.independent.ie-

1,700 guns stolen in five years

Sunday November 04 2007

A total of 1,716 firearms -- including 387 rifles, 1,282 shotguns and 47 other assorted weapons -- have been stolen from private citizens in the last five years. The disappearance of these weapons has promoted Fine Gael TD Charlie Flanagan to call for the return of the old courts-based system of renewing gun licences.

"The amount of legally held weapons that has been stolen over the last five years alone would be enough to arm a revolutionary militia" said Fine Gael's spokesman on justice.

Though the use of sub-machine guns in gangland wars have grabbed most of the media attention, gardai believe the use of stolen shot-guns and rifles in post office and bank robberies pose just as much of a threat to the ordinary public. Significantly after a recent decline in the theft of armaments 2007 is set to see a rise in the theft of 'conventional weapons'. In the first 10 months of this year, 243 licensed weapons were stolen, according to gardai.

Our man in Havana

I won't be voting for Charlie Flanagan again! :mad: Who does he think he is?

What is this courts-based system of renewing gun licences he is on about?

Dr Strange

... enough to arm a revolutionary militia.

Ah jeez, that just screams 'beware of licenced firearms-holders' at the general non-shooting public. Firearms stolen from licence holders used by possible paramilitaries for coups .... and stuff like that. Really unnecessary. :rolleyes:

Seems like the papers are buidling up to something...

Methinks maybe the FCP isn't going to get a great result - though I admit this is probablt paranoid.

civdef

Charlie has always never been an ally of licensed shooters, some of his comments in firearm related Dail debates of years past bear testament to this. Now that he's FG justice spokesperson, we can expect much more like that.

The silly scaremongering language is all part of what he feels it takes to get more media coverage.

Keelan

No pitols are being issued in my district because of thefts.!!!!
All .223 rifles are on hold and their is talk of them all being lifted by next July!!!!
How do i know this, i went fishing with a freind, whos father is a super!!

The bright side of this is, they will be handed back, when all the law regarding firearms changes after July, when certain security arrangments are met by the holders of the firearms.

Good Luck.

Sparks

The problem keelan is what those security arrangements will be. I mean, I'm all for gunsafes and house alarms, I happen to think they're just common sense, but what if you're asked for what was asked for before the Dunne v Donohue case, which was - if I recall correctly - bars on windows and steel doors and other things that violated fire safety codes for houses. Or what if 24hr guards are asked for? There's nothing in the Firearms Act that says what the requirements can't be.

Sparks

Zaraba, I don't think you're being paranoid - the FCP are an advisory group, a kick-to-touch measure as far as I can see. They're not irrelevant - they may be able to prevent the worst excesses of paranoia from the powers that be - but I wouldn't say that their existance eliminates the need for lobbying the government...

Keelan

Sparks wrote: »

The problem keelan is what those security arrangements will be. I mean, I'm all for gunsafes and house alarms, I happen to think they're just common sense, but what if you're asked for what was asked for before the Dunne v Donohue case, which was - if I recall correctly - bars on windows and steel doors and other things that violated fire safety codes for houses. Or what if 24hr guards are asked for? There's nothing in the Firearms Act that says what the requirements can't be.

Exactly.

Our man in Havana

What was the outcome of Dunne v Donohue?

BryanL

i wonder if anyone says that a gun has been robbed so they don't have to license a rarely used gun.

Our man in Havana

That would be highly irresponsible and if caught out they would be facing a nice stretch in Portlaoise prison.

BryanL

i agree ,bond, but i'm still amazed at the amount that they are saying are being stolen. i'm just not convinced they are all being robbed thats all
Bryan

rrpc

Bond-007 wrote: »

What was the outcome of Dunne v Donohue?

Dunne v Donohoe was the case where a requirement for a gun safe and extra security was stipulated by a Superintendent before issuing a licence. The case against the Superintendent was successful.

rrpc

BryanL wrote: »

i agree ,bond, but i'm still amazed at the amount that they are saying are being stolen. i'm just not convinced they are all being robbed thats all
Bryan

They are being stolen, those figures are correct. There are 220,000 plus licensed firearms in the country, the average figure equates to about 0.1% being stolen per annum.

The vast majority are shotguns (around 75%), which would probably indicate poor security where these firearms are concerned.

bigred

rrpc wrote: »

The vast majority are shotguns (around 75%), which would probably indicate poor security where these firearms are concerned.

Unfortunately, there's still plenty of people around the country (my father included) that still keep the ole 12ga behind the hall door in the farmhouse in amongst the sweeping brush, wellies etc. and a box of shells on the 'high shelf'. All we can do is be sensible about the guns we hold and try to influence others around us. If someone really wants to rob you, they will. Dissuading the opportunists is half the battle.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

Dunne v Donohoe was the case where a requirement for a gun safe and extra security was stipulated by a Superintendent before issuing a licence. The case against the Superintendent was successful.

Yup, the case was against the Super, but the actual requirements involved had come from the Commissioner and had been issued as an unofficial guideline to all the supers. (The point of the case was that the Superintendents were the final arbiters of licencing as a result - noone could force them to issue or deny a licence, and noone could issue binding regulations on them on how to interpret the firearms acts.)
Dunne won in the High Court and then won the appeal in the Supreme Court.

Keelan

As regards gun safes, if they want the guns, they will get them, these criminals are very ditermined indeed!!!
The professional ones, know what they want, they have been informed of the number of guns ect and head straight for that once broken in to the house.!

Not too far from me, a man, with a .22 magnum rifle and 2 shotguns, had his house broken into and his rifle and 2 shotguns taken from his locked up safe!!!
He also had a .243, but lukyly, he was out stalking with that, that morning, otherwise, that would be gone too!!!
They cut a hole on top of the good gun safe, with an angle ginder and lifted the guns threw it, took all ammo and toched nothing else in the house, even though your man had a pile of money, (his wages) siting on the table of the kitchen!! They were just after the guns thats it!!
The poor fella, had his .243 taken off him then by the guards and could never get licenced again, he has since sunk into depression!!!
Sad really.:(

revan23

maybe have an empty safe, and keep the guns somewhere else in the house - just kidding, sort of