Over 1,100 firearms stolen since 2003

rrpc

Keelan wrote: »

As regards gun safes, if they want the guns, they will get them, these criminals are very ditermined indeed!!!
The professional ones, know what they want, they have been informed of the number of guns ect and head straight for that once broken in to the house.!

Not too far from me, a man, with a .22 magnum rifle and 2 shotguns, had his house broken into and his rifle and 2 shotguns taken from his locked up safe!!!
He also had a .243, but lukyly, he was out stalking with that, that morning, otherwise, that would be gone too!!!
They cut a hole on top of the good gun safe, with an angle ginder and lifted the guns threw it, took all ammo and toched nothing else in the house, even though your man had a pile of money, (his wages) siting on the table of the kitchen!! They were just after the guns thats it!!
The poor fella, had his .243 taken off him then by the guards and could never get licenced again, he has since sunk into depression!!!
Sad really.:(

That's a tough break. Two things come to mind when reading this. The first is that when siting a safe, it's important that it's in a position that the guns can only come out through the door and as difficult to apply an angle grinder as possible.

Secondly, he should appeal the refusal to court. He made a more than reasonable effort to keep the guns secure and that should be sufficient. Having said that , it's always important to keep rifles and bolts seperately so that if they are taken they are useless.

fishdog

The first is that when siting a safe, it's important that it's in a position that the guns can only come out through the door

Why would this make it any harder to attack the safe?
They simply attack the door then.

Sparks

Yeah, but that's an attack the safe designers expect fishdog, so they build the safe accordingly.

fishdog

Yeah, but that's an attack the safe designers expect fishdog, so they build the safe accordingly.

Ever seen safes that were sucessfuly attacked ?? Even when 3 sides are accessable the door seems the favorite target.

I am sure that this depends on the type of safe.

Sparks

fishdog wrote: »

Ever seen safes that were sucessfuly attacked ?? Even when 3 sides are accessable the door seems the favorite target.

Yup. That's why the door's the hardest target on any decent safe.
For example, external hinges:

There they are, nice and exposed, perfect target for an angle grinder. And your thief wastes a good 10 minutes (during which they assume the police are responding to your alarm) cutting through them before discovering that the door has bolts on at least two sides and that removing the hinges just means that the door can't swing open when the safe's unlocked - it does nothing to get you into the safe. Little things like that.

Gun cabinets now, on the other hand, aren't as hardened.

fishdog

If that high a standard of safe were normal in Ireland we would not have as much as

0.1% being stolen per annum.

revan23

to be honest, i'd say it's easier to steal the safe than to cut it open on site so to speak...

sidneyreilly

revan23 wrote: »

to be honest, i'd say it's easier to steal the safe than to cut it open on site so to speak...

Not if you have it properly secured on a few sides!

Sparks

I think that's why they usually want the safe bolted to a structural wall revan...

alan_simon

To get back to the topic, I was chatting to a garda this morning. I won't name him, but he's in charge of Firearms in a significant area of South Dublin. He was saying that the vast majority of thefts are, firstly shotguns and large calibre rifles, and secondly that most thefts are opportunistic. Unless you have a big centrefire rifle or a pistol in your house, your unlikely to be targeted by robbers. Mostly it's rifles being stolen from the backs of cars from people on their way to the range, who stopped for whatever reason.

Another interesting thing he said was that safes are not required for firearms, at least not for .22 rifles. The Garda appreciate a safe, but you can still get a license without a safe, or an alarm on your house. Maybe if this becomes obligatory (which it should, in my opinion) opportunistic robbers might not get your gun.

alan

Our man in Havana

Another interesting thing he said was that safes are not required for firearms, at least not for .22 rifles. The Garda appreciate a safe, but you can still get a license without a safe, or an alarm on your house. Maybe if this becomes obligatory (which it should, in my opinion) opportunistic robbers might not get your gun.

The local super insists on a safe and will not grant a FAC without one.

Umiq88

alan_simon wrote: »

He was saying that most thefts are opportunistic

alan_simon wrote: »

Unless you have a big centrefire rifle or a pistol in your house, your unlikely to be targeted by robbers

alan_simon wrote: »

you can still get a license without a safe, or an alarm on your house. Maybe if this becomes obligatory (which it should, in my opinion) opportunistic robbers might not get your gun.

alan_simon wrote: »

Mostly it's rifles being stolen from the backs of cars from people on their way to the range, who stopped for whatever reason

How will a monitered alarms system and top of the range safe stop the theft getting the guns from your car?

Can you really expect the same measures on everyone i mean in theory it would be great everyone having top of the range safes and monitered alarms but for my .22 rifle that i paid 280euro for im not paying 1000 for a monitered alarm and half that for a safe. I do keep my rifles secuely in a safe and i have it in an awkawad place not very visible and inside the wall so hard to get at.

I think if the government/gardai are so concerned grants should be issued towards shooters to help provide more security

i think the biggest problem is what if someone knows you have guns and comes into your house armed and you're there and asks you for your keys i for one would be inclided to give them to them i'm not going to risk my life over it so what is the average shooter to do

Criminals will get there hands on guns one way or another not that we should make it easy for them quite the opposite but i think theres only so much the shooter can do and responibility has to be handed over at some point

Sparks

Bond-007 wrote: »

The local super insists on a safe and will not grant a FAC without one.

The act requires "secure storage". It leaves the definition of that up to the discretion of the local Superintendent, so you could have one person required to have a safe, a monitored alarm system, steel bars on the windows, and 24hr private security; and the guy 100 yards away might get a cert for the same firearm with nothing more than a strong cupboard door and lock, and it would still be perfectly legal.

alan_simon

psittacosis wrote: »

How will a monitered alarms system and top of the range safe stop the theft getting the guns from your car?

Psittacosis, I presume you know one of the prime rules of firearm safety... NEVER leave your firearm unattended in an unsecured place. If you leave your firearm in the safe everytime your not using it, then your going to reduce the chance of you getting your gun stolen.

It wasn't me!

What I read was that he was saying the guns are in the boot, and when stopped in traffic, for example, the thieves open the boot and simply take the gun.

I had heard, however, that when a rifle is in transit, it's supposed to be disassembled, in the sense that the bolt at least, and possibly other essential parts, will be removed. Is this true, and if so, how does this impact on the effectiveness of guns stolen during such opportunistic thefts? Or is it something that isn't observed?

bullets

alan_simon wrote: »

The Garda appreciate a safe, but you can still get a license without a safe, or an alarm on your house. Maybe if this becomes obligatory (which it should, in my opinion) opportunistic robbers might not get your gun.

alan

I was told my super would Not issue any licenses without a safe (which I totally agree with) and they examined mine after it was bolted to the wall and floor. I was also asked if I had safe in the car! (I dont own a car I travel with a friend when shooting and remove the bolt and pocket it and also use a trigger lock) I also keep my bolt and ammo in a locked strong box in a completely separate area of my house. For Center fire I was told they
would look for a monitored alarm and as for Pistols I was told the super
did not issue licenses for pistols at all full stop!

I have no problems with them insisting on an Alarm but I do have a problem
with them insisting on a monitored alarm by third party. When that party
is not you and it means paying a monthly price.

At the moment I am planning on saving for an alarm. I cant afford much
due to a high mortgage.

I don't trust alarms at all. Every time one goes off where I live people
ignore it. Window and door sensors are no good if they smash the glass.
PIR's that trigger the alarm only happen when someone has already broken into your house. Vibration sensor can be accidentally triggered.
I've got 14 cats 3-4 of which are indoor pets and have free movement of the house I can only imagine how often they would trigger PIR's even with the pet friendly ones.

3rd party monitored alarms you have a monthly fee to pay and some systems
are not compatible with some phone/broadband services I think???
ie if I am with Smart Telecom and want Eircom phone watch it kinda
messes things up.

~B

E. Fudd

I recently got a price for monitoring by a central station, €150.
Which I thought wasn't too bad If it was the difference between an FAC and no FAC.

As I am in the electrical business, and used to do alarms (up until the new regulations came in, requiring me to pay approx €3000 a year to be licensed and avoid prosecution), this price was subject to me installing the dialler myself. I know that I was charging about €200 when I used to install them, which would be a once off charge, and then the 150 a year.

One of the little known facts about the monitoring malarky is that the installer who signs you up to a monitoring contract receives around €50 per annum from the monitoring company for as long as you have the contract!!

fishdog

I recently got a price for monitoring by a central station, €150.

Sounds like a good price, but what do you get for your money?? People think that if the alarm activates the monitoring company will ring the Gardai and they will in turn respond as quickly as they can. This is not the case. If the alarm activates the monitoring station will ring the keyholders and then the Gardai who will only trun up if a keyholder will meet them there!! If a keyholder can not make it there the Gardai will not turn up!!

This is in the Garda policy document that you can see on the PhoneWatch website.

What is the alternitive??? Buy an alarm that will ring (and/or text) you (and several others) when it activates, you in turn can phone the Gardai. Why pay a middle man ????

The Gardai accept this for all legal firearms in all of the cases I have come across (many).

Like E. Fudd, due to the Private Security Authority government scam I no longer work in the alarm industry.

bullets

fishdog wrote: »

The Gardai accept this for all legal firearms in all of the cases I have come across (many).

Thats good to know!

~B

rrpc

fishdog wrote: »

Sounds like a good price, but what do you get for your money?? People think that if the alarm activates the monitoring company will ring the Gardai and they will in turn respond as quickly as they can. This is not the case. If the alarm activates the monitoring station will ring the keyholders and then the Gardai who will only trun up if a keyholder will meet them there!! If a keyholder can not make it there the Gardai will not turn up!!

If the Gardai know there are guns in the house you can bet your life they'll be out very quickly. Sparks found that out when his house was burgled last year.

fishdog

If the Gardai know there are guns in the house you can bet your life they'll be out very quickly. Sparks found that out when his house was burgled last year.

It is possible that the Garda that picks up the phone from the monitoring station will not know that you have firearms in the house. They do not seem to check a list of homes that have firearms when responding to a call (I asked). However some Gardai know some of the homes that contain firearms.

E. Fudd

The problem is though that the monitoring companies are very hesitant to actually contact the Gardai! Thay will ring your three nominated key holders and try to persuade them to go to the alarm before thay will contact the gardai!

fishdog

The problem is though that the monitoring companies are very hesitant to actually contact the Gardai!

Very true. But if your alarm rings you directly you sure as hell will ring the Gardai and anyone else that can get there quick!!

Thay will ring your three nominated key holders and try to persuade them to go to the alarm before thay will contact the gardai!

All the more reason to cut out the monitoring station "middle man" fee.

E. Fudd

Couldn't agree more!

Anyway, I'll be able to put the monitoring thing to the test in the coming weeks as I will be applying for a .243 license as soon as my deer hunting permit arrives! I'm hoping that they don;t ask for monitoring, but failing that, I'm hoping that the unit that I have installed that texts me will be acceptable to them!

bunny shooter

My local super won't accept the text monitoring, has to be the manned monitoring centre

alan_simon

Does anyone know how much Eircom Phonewatch costs to be installed? I checked the site, and they told me its 250 odd p/a for monitoring, but it doesnt say how much all the equipment would cost.

cheers

alan

bunny shooter

alan_simon wrote: »

Does anyone know how much Eircom Phonewatch costs to be installed? I checked the site, and they told me its 250 odd p/a for monitoring, but it doesnt say how much all the equipment would cost.

cheers

alan

It cost me €1200, all external doors (x2), windows (x6) , seperate zone for cupboard for gun safe, motion sensors (x2) and 12 months monotoring

fishdog

It cost me €1200, all external doors (x2), windows (x6) , seperate zone for cupboard for gun safe, motion sensors (x2) and 12 months monotoring

Means nothing, they generally use outside contractors. The price varies like mad.

BTW PhoneWatch wireless systems are normally less secure for many reasons, but mainly because the standard way to install them is with fake SABB (externall bellbox). This is a very important part of an alarm system, for many reasons including the fact that during an activation it is normally the only part of the alarm that can be heard. Internal sirens normally can not be heard utside the house because of double glazing.

Always go for a hardwired (not wireless alarm system). They are more reliable, cheaper and more secure (if installed correctly).

Even Eircom PhoneWatch will not install a wireless system if the house is prewired.

rrpc

E. Fudd wrote: »

The problem is though that the monitoring companies are very hesitant to actually contact the Gardai! Thay will ring your three nominated key holders and try to persuade them to go to the alarm before thay will contact the gardai!

My monitoring company will only ring the Gardai when both the perimeter and internal systems trigger. In other words they need a door/window activation and a PIR activation. This is a Garda requirement, not a monitoring one to prevent false alarm call outs.

They are extremely quick to call me when there is an activation. I have yet only once been able to phone them before they phoned me about an activation and I had to run and speed dial their number.

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote: »

It cost me €1200, all external doors (x2), windows (x6) , seperate zone for cupboard for gun safe, motion sensors (x2) and 12 months monotoring

I got a contractor to do mine; 17 windows, 4 doors, 4 wireless PIR's, 2 dialers (hard wired and GSM), 2 panic buttons (1 fixed, 1 wireless) and monitoring cost €3300. :eek:

Worth the money