Web Site design

henbane

Given that someone can make €200 in three shifts in McDonalds, I'm pretty sure I don't want anyone designing my site for the same cash. Why is web design seen as unskilled labour? Any twát can put up a site but design is a real skill. Do you really want your potential customers dealing with a cheap & nasty website?

Sully

I see where a lot of people are coming from when there talking about high prices.. but, from my own experience - you can get professional & SEO friendly sites done at a nice price (not deep into the thousands like some companies). I suppose it does depend on the company though.

I always felt that in Ireland, webdesign can be very expensive (amongst other things). Elsewhere, things can be cheaper.

For this type of site, id be think around 500-1k would be a suitable mark for a few pages with text. If your getting into stuff like shopping carts, content management systems things can get expensive (if the company makes their own - if they use open source, it shouldnt make a huge difference)

Laslo

Sully wrote: »

I see where a lot of people are coming from when there talking about high prices.. but, from my own experience - you can get professional & SEO friendly sites done at a nice price (not deep into the thousands like some companies). I suppose it does depend on the company though.

I'd love to see one of these professional '& SEO friendly' 1k sites. Can you show me a few examples?

Sully

Id like to feel that most of my portfolio are professional and SEO Friendly. Im open to correction, but a number of sources said all is okay.

Neither of my sites have gone above 900 to-date as most of it has been basic work. Iv been told from other companies that im to cheap, but thats entirely my choice.

Laslo

Sully wrote: »

Id like to feel that most of my portfolio are professional and SEO Friendly. Im open to correction, but a number of sources said all is okay.

Neither of my sites have gone above 900 to-date as most of it has been basic work. Iv been told from other companies that im to cheap, but thats entirely my choice.

It is, entirely. If you can afford to bring a professional service at that price then more power to you. I know I can't. My costs are well over 900 by the time I've even outsourced the design (I outsource it to a professional rather than trying to do it myself)

Anyone who 'does websites' on their own - clients beware.

forbairt

Laslo wrote: »

Anyone who 'does websites' on their own - clients beware.

OI!!! I do websites on my own

DJB

Yeah... me too!

[trumpet] Some of us are talented enough to be able to design and code! [/trumpet]

matt-dublin

Laslo wrote: »

It is, entirely. If you can afford to bring a professional service at that price then more power to you. I know I can't. My costs are well over 900 by the time I've even outsourced the design (I outsource it to a professional rather than trying to do it myself)

Anyone who 'does websites' on their own - clients beware.

i does too!

but again it all depends on what the client wants...
for a standard static html site, which validates against w3c and is lightly seo friendly i would charge anywhere between 700 and 1500, but again i would have to take into account the complexity of their request, design and man hours.

But for a CMS wether it be custom built by myself, or joomla dotnetnuke etc we're talking a whole other ballpark. I've seen people paying stupid money for cms systems when they really didn't need one. I think thats where the overpriced designing comes into play.

But saying that, and correct me if i'm wrong, i think most designers now recommend what they think the client should use, wether it be cms or not. I know i certainly do, and if i feel the client needs a CMS, ill suggest one, otherwise i would suggest a static site with a maintanance agreement.

randombar

Definitely agree that there is a big difference between part time and full time developers but at the end of the day it all depends on what your website does and what it offers, i keep going back to the likes of bebo and cringing, it's a horribly put together website but is making millions! I suppose there's exceptions to every rule!

Sully

Well iv managed to sucesfully get a designer and a developer outside of Ireland and a reasnoable price. Which is why I can offer afforadble work.

I tried the route in Ireland, getting staff, but the prices being asked for such simple projects was unbelivable. No PHP or design - just pure HTML/CSS for a few pages going up as far as 5K. Im sorry but thats over pricing.

Although saying that, I have an Irish Designer and an Irish Coder who are reasnoably priced. Not silly teenagers either. The work is done on time, validates and is SEO Friendly. Iv seen the people offering cheap prices, and iv turned them down as the quality of their work was poor. So its a mixed market really.

Laslo

God. A slew of incredibly talented people on here who can design and develop. It'd make you wonder why the quality of Irish websites it utter, utter s**t. :rolleyes:

DJB

Laslo wrote: »

God. A slew of incredibly talented people on here who can design and develop. It'd make you wonder why the quality of Irish websites it utter, utter s**t. :rolleyes:

Cause you're looking at the sites we didn't do!

matt-dublin

DJB wrote: »

Cause you're looking at the sites we didn't do!

seconded!

but really, you should look to these guys: http://webpageireland.com/ apparently they really really know their stuf

Sully

Laslo wrote: »

God. A slew of incredibly talented people on here who can design and develop. It'd make you wonder why the quality of Irish websites it utter, utter s**t. :rolleyes:

Probably because this type of service is expensive in Ireland, so people outsource to those who don't have as good work quality as us.

Just because you can design and develop, does NOT mean your design quality will be poor. You can be talented at both you know!

Laslo

Sully wrote: »

You can be talented at both you know!

You can think you're talented at both but realistically very few are at professional with both disciplines. There are probably plenty of people who think they are... but that's another story.

Sully

Laslo wrote: »

You can think you're talented at both but realistically very few are at professional with both disciplines. There are probably plenty of people who think they are... but that's another story.

I assume this is your experience. Iv found different..

There isnt a huge number, ill admit, but it is possible and there is plenty out there!

Lawdie

matt-dublin wrote: »

but really, you should look to these guys: http://webpageireland.com/ apparently they really really know their stuf

Guys I've looked at both DJBs work and the above and I wouldn't rank either.
If the developers own site is poorly designed how can someone justify hiring them. In fairness to DJB the site was at least somewhat aesthetically appealing but still weakly designed. The webpageireland site appears to have been ported from microsoft word.

Sully a point to note is just because someone is cheaper it does not automatically mean their work is poorer, that the expensive counterpart.

The earlier poster was right, Irish web design has a long way to go!

CoNfOuNd

Lawdie > webpageireland.com shouldn't be taken seriously, and if you are talking about vitalspark, I think they have a good portfolio section on their site to demonstrate the professional work they do. Besides, we don't know what either company price their design work at..

Lawdie

Yes I am a twat.
I missed the facetious comment on them. Sorry.
Its lack of sleep.

DJB

Lawdie wrote: »

Guys I've looked at both DJBs work and the above and I wouldn't rank either.
If the developers own site is poorly designed how can someone justify hiring them. In fairness to DJB the site was at least somewhat aesthetically appealing but still weakly designed. The webpageireland site appears to have been ported from microsoft word.

Sully a point to note is just because someone is cheaper it does not automatically mean their work is poorer, that the expensive counterpart.

The earlier poster was right, Irish web design has a long way to go!

The recommendation of the webpageireland.com was a pisstake I believe!

I'd love to defend myself and my work but I just couldn't be arsed!

Now, where did I leave my copy of frontpage 98... it's around here somewhere!

forbairt

Lawdie wrote: »

Guys I've looked at both DJBs work and the above and I wouldn't rank either.

I think as developers / designers ... one rarely has the proper amount of time to work on your own site ... revenue always takes precidence ... and if you've got a steady stream of revenue ... then you should have a poor site ...

Thats .. my story .. and I'm sticking to it

Lawdie

Forbairt, if your selling web site design services then the first thing a customer looks at is the goods on display. Namely the companies website. If you were purchasing a suit and in the shop window were clothes thrown in a pile the naturally view is this display represents a total lack of professionalism. You'd walk buy into XXX professional suit shop to get fitted. I can understand your thinking, but theres three value propositions to selling these type of web design services, customer referrals, existing "good" work and your shop front. All three need to be firing.

DJB wrote: »

The recommendation of the webpageireland.com was a pisstake I believe!

Yep, I think thats what I later acknowledged but by all means reiterate it for no benefit except to in some way feel superior.

DJB wrote: »

I'd love to defend myself and my work but I just couldn't be arsed!

Its not about defense. I made a personal comment about your company homepage. It was not meant in any form as an attack. I'm delighted that your business is well and some of your other work looked very classy. I've being involved with web design for ten years now and only cast an opinion. I'm standing by it. Should you wish to discuss by all means PM me off thread.

DJB

Ok, now I'm arsed... It is about defence when you basically say my work (my own site) is crap! That site has actually gotten listed on numerous css style showcase websites, been commented on a number of blogs, been discussed on this site and CI with very promising feedback.

You are entitled to your opinion and that's grand, you don't like it. Fair enough. Don't buy my services. I've a healthy business so it doesn't bother me.

In fairness to forbairt... he is right. We do our best with our own site, especially in a small business. If I had a whole month and 10k to spend on my own site, it would be the bees knees and cats pyjamas! We do what we think works well, showcases our work, and brings in potential customers. If my site was sooooo bad, why does it generate so many leads and why is ranked so well for my chosen keywords, etc.

Hmmm... maybe it's because I'm good at what I do!!!

I think I was most offended by being put in the same sentence as webpageireland and tarnished with the same brush!

Anyhow... i'll get over it!

Dave

p.s. I would be very interested in knowing some of the websites that you do regard as being designed well... just so I can put up a comparison! Cheers!

Lawdie

DJB wrote: »

say my work (my own site) is crap!

Thats your word not mine. Your taken what I've said and twisted it to suit this rant. You have a trend on not reading carefully before replying.

DJB wrote: »

site has actually gotten listed...CI with very promising feedback

And fair play. I'm sure many would find this work wonderful. I stated its aesthetic value was good with again in "my" opinion weakly designed. The only reason I even looked at the site was your adding the link to the sig.

DJB wrote: »

Don't buy my services

Ok, but with that attitude to an unknown and potential buyer is silly. Just childish.

DJB wrote: »

I've a healthy business so it doesn't bother me.

On this I sincerely wish you well. I've respect for anyone running their own business. But heed my comment, even a negative comment could lead to new business so don't get on a high horse.

DJB wrote: »

was sooooo bad

Theres that twisting of the words again.

DJB wrote: »

it's because I'm good at what I do!!!

Again with the lack of reading and acknowledgment. Did I not state "some of your other work looked very classy".

DJB wrote: »

Anyhow... i'll get over it!

Somehow Dave I'm sure you will.

DJB wrote: »

pthat you do regard as being designed well... just so I can put up a comparison!

This is probably the most savvy statement you've posted. If you had left out the "comparison!" closer I would of respected you more.

Dave, if you want to meet up some time to have a conversation I would make myself available send me a pm

Sully

I personally dont see anything wrong with Davids site or portfolio. Clearly the chap has talent, and if I wasnt in the business myself - id have no hessitation to get services from him. Keep up the good work David, you cant please everyone.

leninbenjamin

in fairness lawdie in your opening sentence you just put DJB's site on an equal footing as webpageireland.com. no matter what comes after, anyone with any passion for their craft would have found that type of thing quite insulting.

i'm actually confused though as to why you'd find DJB's an example of poor design, it seems very effective to me. I see a clean layout and design, no fuss, information readily available, easily navigated and some nice little aesthetic touches here and there. I can't see why you could really fault it? (and i'm not being pedantic here, i'm just a beginner/hobbyist who wants to learn more).

DJB

This is why I originally wasn't arsed... I knew it would turn into one of "those" posts. I'm going back to not being arsed... and going to dig out that copy of FrontPage and design meself a new site!

<a href="#original-topic">suggested direction of thread!</a>

DJB

Oh, cheers Sully and Lenin - appreciated!

matt-dublin

god maybe i shouldn't have put that reference to webpagesireland up. and yes it was a pisstake.

Lawdie, in all fairness, i don't think you know what you're talking about, and i almost feel like your trolling at this stage. Both forbairt and djb provide excellent services, and i have used some of their sites for inspiration for some of my own.

And by the looks of things you're looking to use someone's services correct me if im wrong, but i think you'll be hard pushed to find anyone here now that would provide you with such services.

If you haven't seen anything that 'tickles your fancy' then obviously you have a different taste to a lot of people and a lot of designers on boards, because by far djb and forbairt are certainly two of the best designers aboard here, with a few others in tow! (id like to say myself but im just not there yet! )

Unless you come from a web design or development background I don't feel you're in a position to place such generally bad comments on someone's work.

End of anti-troll rant!

Lawdie

matt-dublin wrote: »

Lawdie, in all fairness, i don't think you know what you're talking about, and i almost feel like your trolling at this stage.

It was never my intention to start trolling, this is not the principle of a boards community.

matt-dublin wrote: »

forbairt and djb provide excellent services

I made a comment about two site links on djb. I never said either guys provided "poor" service. In fact I never mentioned forbait in regard to services, I don't even know his work.

This does get under my skin. You making a comment and twisting the context. This for some reason only happens in this thread.

matt-dublin wrote: »

you're looking to use someone's services correct me if im wrong

Nope my other thread (if thats what your referring too) is about web hosting I don't need any web design services. But it appears that some individuals are really sensitive on this thread.

matt-dublin wrote: »

Unless you come from a web design or development background I don't feel you're in a position to place such generally bad comments

Matt I do come from a web background but its not front facing web sites. The business analysis and design work is more online applications. I've being doing this for a group of corporations for the past eight years.

Am I am expert no. Have I a lot of experience dealing business 2 business with multinationals, yes. Am I entitled to an opinion without the flames, I'd like to think so.

If anyone cares to read back I'm don't continuously make "bad" comments. Everyone learns from constructive criticism or they choose to ignore it.