Rememberance day

Mrs. MacGyver

I meant its the trumph of the human spirit. The wearing of the poppy helps us to realise that we do not needto fight wars but we do need to fight for peace in our world since it won't come about through passivity. I do accept that some people may view the poppy as a symbol of imperialism but no-one is forcing a person to wear one. As i said before it is up to the individual concerned. we all come from a different standpoint here.

Acid_Violet

Mrs. MacGyver wrote: »

I meant its the trumph of the human spirit.

The triumph of the human spirit in war, in murdering other people, if that's not what you mean please be more specific.

The wearing of the poppy helps us to realise that we do not needto fight wars but we do need to fight for peace in our world since it won't come about through passivity.

So if not wars what do you mean? Bare-knuckle boxing?

How can fighting for peace work? Stopping people being maimed and killed by maiming and killing others? I quote the white popies for peace website on a description it gives of the white poppy;
‘ it symbolizes the belief that there are better ways to resolve conflicts than killing strangers’.
Would you not agree with this?

Granted, sometimes there's no other option but to fight, WW2 being a good example perhaps, but wouldn't you agree that timely diplomacy is a much better option?

I do accept that some people may view the poppy as a symbol of imperialism but no-one is forcing a person to wear one. As i said before it is up to the individual concerned. we all come from a different standpoint here.

I know. I'm just challenging the opinions of those who wear it.

LordSutch

And those of us who do wear the Poppy on Remembrance Sunday wear it for very good reason, as has been explained in countless previous posts in this thread ...............

Mrs. MacGyver

Thanks Arthur. I agree.

McArmalite

Not doubting you Acid, do you have a link to this information, yuo seem to be very well up on Indian history. Or a good link to how the whole partition of India was manufactuered by the British. I remember reading a great article in the Readers Digest many years about it, but unfortunately I lost the copy. I've tried searches in Google and Wikipedia but they generally posted the 'Offical' version, i.e., Britian acting as the fair colonial policeman caught between 2 backward, bigoted ideologies etc, etc.
And also about the 100,000 native Kikuyu people who died in concentration camps. Again it's something that is 'forgot' to mention in our learning of histroy. Many thanks if you have a good link.

Acid_Violet wrote: »

33m died in India as a result of Britain’s destruction of its economy, which caused widespread famine. At the height of this ‘famine’, British controlled India exported a record 320,000 tonnes of wheat and officials were ordered to “discourage relief works in any way possible”. As late as the 1950s, the British army was committing massive atrocities in the colonies of the empire.

In Kenya more than 100,000 native Kikuyu people died in concentration camps. The soldiers were told they could shoot anyone, “provided they were black”. In one day 1,090 suspected rebels were hanged.

It is part of the glorification of war; 'the glorious dead' written on the cenotaph, the list of the dead called 'the roll of honour'. Come on!

MajorMax

I wear a poppy every year as a mark of respect of my granduncle William Kelly who fell at the 3rd battle of Ypres in 1917 at the age of 17, if anyone has a problem with that it's their problem not mine

Zambia

Its a poppy to remember British servicemen in all wars. The funds raised go to ex-servicemen to improve their quality of life. Not exactly a bad cause as your average squaddie really didnt care if Ireland was a Republic or not.

Once upon a time some young men whether Irish or Engilsh, Scottish or Welsh young bloke laid down their lives for what they believed was their nation. Whether what they where fighting for was right or wrong I am pretty sure they knew nothing about the greater scheme of things.

If they where prepared to give their lives for the rest of us, I'm quite prepared to wear a poppy once a year. Just consider what a Majormaxs granduncle missed out on dying at 17.

Snickers Man

Zambia232 wrote: »

Its a poppy to remember British servicemen in all wars. The funds raised go to ex-servicemen to improve their quality of life. Not exactly a bad cause as your average squaddie really didnt care if Ireland was a Republic or not.

Once upon a time some young men whether Irish or Engilsh, Scottish or Welsh young bloke laid down their lives for what they believed was their nation. Whether what they where fighting for was right or wrong I am pretty sure they knew nothing about the greater scheme of things.

If they where prepared to give their lives for the rest of us, I'm quite prepared to wear a poppy once a year. Just consider what a Majormaxs granduncle missed out on dying at 17.

What a load of pious poppycock, if you'll excuse the mot juste.

How far back do you want to go to remember those who "were prepared to give our lives for the rest of us"?

How about those who fought in Africa and Asia when Irish soldiers were recruited in their thousands to expand the empire? How about all those brave Irish soldiers like my great grandfather (at least one that I know of) who fearlessly machine gunned Zulus and Matabeles (and Sudanese, and Egyptians and Ghanaians and Indians and Burmese etc etc etc)

We certainly have a duty to remember the fact and to be aware of how one subjected nation can be encouraged to play an active role in the subjugation of another. But to stick a poppy on your chest and say tearfully that it's to remember some long dead distant relative whom you have never met and probably never even met anybody who met him is merely to endorse the cause for which his life was squandered.

Which was the maintenance and expansion of an empire that we have long since as a nation rejected and removed ourselves from. That's a fact of history that we should formally recognise with as much ceremony as the British deploy in rememberance of those who attempted to keep the map of the world red.

What is different about those squaddies in World War one and the looters of AFrica?

Apart from the fact that Irish soldiers were more prominent in the latter than in the former.

PDN

Snickers Man wrote: »

What is different about those squaddies in World War one and the looters of AFrica?

Apart from the fact that Irish soldiers were more prominent in the latter than in the former.

Were they? Over 50,000 Irish soldiers died in World War I.

This November I had just finished reading Ernst Junger's Storm of Steel, a stunning memoir of life in the German trenches. I bought a poppy and wore it as my own little tribute to all the poor sods who got butchered in that senseless war. I don't really care what anyone else wants to read into the whole poppy/remembrance day thing.

Snickers Man

PDN wrote: »

Were they? Over 50,000 Irish soldiers died in World War I.

Less that one day's worth of British casualties on the Battle of the Somme. A spit in the bucket compared to the overall cost of the war.

Other posters have claimed elsewhere on this forum [history & heritage] that at some stages of the 19th century somewhere between 40 and 50% of the soldiers in the British Army were Irish. Probably true.

And one third of Irish born winners of the Victoria Cross won it in the Indian Mutiny. Either our compatriots in that conflict were disproportionately brave or they were disproportionately represented in army ranks. I think the latter is more likely.

brianthebard

Snickers Man wrote: »

Which was the maintenance and expansion of an empire that we have long since as a nation rejected and removed ourselves from. That's a fact of history that we should formally recognise with as much ceremony as the British deploy in rememberance of those who attempted to keep the map of the world red.

What is different about those squaddies in World War one and the looters of AFrica?

Apart from the fact that Irish soldiers were more prominent in the latter than in the former.

Snickers man, you are being way too judgemental to be objective about history. Do you honestly think that every soldier who fought for Britain were doing so because they felt imperialism was a good thing? Do you think that they wanted to see others oppressed? I know some may have, but not the majority, not even close. Most of the people who fought for Britain or in other armies died for senseless reasons, for whatever cause the politicans thought up, and to treat the millions of dead and wounded as though they were war criminals is just a bit much.

Snickers Man

brianthebard wrote:

Snickers man, you are being way too judgemental to be objective about history. Do you honestly think that every soldier who fought for Britain were doing so because they felt imperialism was a good thing? Do you think that they wanted to see others oppressed? I know some may have, but not the majority, not even close. Most of the people who fought for Britain or in other armies died for senseless reasons, for whatever cause the politicans thought up, and to treat the millions of dead and wounded as though they were war criminals is just a bit much.

Where did I call these men war criminals?

I actually agree with you. They died for senseless reasons or at least reasons that were senseless to them. What the hell sense did it make for Australians to fight Turks at Gallipoli?

How were the former members of the Irish Volunteers and Ulster Volunteer Force suddenly finding common cause by fighting together against the very people who had so generously provide BOTH with weapons just a few years previously?

But don't tell me that wearing a poppy is an "objective" means of commemorating the slaughter of so many people. On the contrary, wearing one proclaims an endorsement of the established view of the history of two world wars. It celebrates an unthinking consensus that a particular view of history is the only valid one.

And an unthinking consensus was the main agent in ensuring that so many young men signed up to go and slaughter each other on the orders of their governments.

If only they had been a little bit more objective...

Fratton Fred

Snickers Man wrote: »

Where did I call these men war criminals?

I actually agree with you. They died for senseless reasons or at least reasons that were senseless to them. What the hell sense did it make for Australians to fight Turks at Gallipoli?

How were the former members of the Irish Volunteers and Ulster Volunteer Force suddenly finding common cause by fighting together against the very people who had so generously provide BOTH with weapons just a few years previously?

But don't tell me that wearing a poppy is an "objective" means of commemorating the slaughter of so many people. On the contrary, wearing one proclaims an endorsement of the established view of the history of two world wars. It celebrates an unthinking consensus that a particular view of history is the only valid one.

And an unthinking consensus was the main agent in ensuring that so many young men signed up to go and slaughter each other on the orders of their governments.

If only they had been a little bit more objective...

In your opinion.

I know why I wear a poppy just like everyone else who wears one knows why they wear it. The reasons may be different and they may conflict with your opinions, but please don't tell me or others that wear a poppy why we are wearing one.

PDN

Fratton Fred wrote: »

but please don't tell me or others that wear a poopy why we are wearing one.

That sounds disgusting.

Fratton Fred

PDN wrote: »

That sounds disgusting.

fixed:)

Zambia

Snickers Man wrote: »

What a load of pious poppycock, if you'll excuse the mot juste.

How far back do you want to go to remember those who "were prepared to give our lives for the rest of us"?

How about those who fought in Africa and Asia when Irish soldiers were recruited in their thousands to expand the empire? How about all those brave Irish soldiers like my great grandfather (at least one that I know of) who fearlessly machine gunned Zulus and Matabeles (and Sudanese, and Egyptians and Ghanaians and Indians and Burmese etc etc etc)

We certainly have a duty to remember the fact and to be aware of how one subjected nation can be encouraged to play an active role in the subjugation of another. But to stick a poppy on your chest and say tearfully that it's to remember some long dead distant relative whom you have never met and probably never even met anybody who met him is merely to endorse the cause for which his life was squandered.

Which was the maintenance and expansion of an empire that we have long since as a nation rejected and removed ourselves from. That's a fact of history that we should formally recognise with as much ceremony as the British deploy in rememberance of those who attempted to keep the map of the world red.

What is different about those squaddies in World War one and the looters of AFrica?

Apart from the fact that Irish soldiers were more prominent in the latter than in the former.

Seriously did you really think about this long winded diatribe of pure rubbish.

During WWI some Irish people where quite happy within the British empire , otherwise the shooting of the 1916 volunteers would not have caused a change in public opinion.

So its safe to assume that some Irish lads did answer the call of the empire, and died for their trouble.

For you to sit on your high horse with the privilege of hindsight to me just stinks of narrow mindness. The poppy is aimed at remembering the troops not their puppet masters.

brianthebard

Zambia232 wrote: »

Seriously did you really think about this long winded diatribe of pure rubbish.

During WWI some Irish people where quite happy within the British empire , otherwise the shooting of the 1916 volunteers would not have caused a change in public opinion.

So its safe to assume that some Irish lads did answer the call of the empire, and died for their trouble.

For you to sit on your high horse with the privilege of hindsight to me just stinks of narrow mindness. The poppy is aimed at remembering the troops not their puppet masters.

QFT

Snickers Man

Zambia232 wrote: »

The poppy is aimed at remembering the troops not their puppet masters.

No it's not. It's about encouraging the next generation of misguided pawns to go out and fight for what somebody else deems to be the next great cause.

Like the so-called "War on Terror".

Ever think that World War One started off as a war on terror? And that "our boys" fought on the same side as those Bosnian Serb terrorists whose atrocity sparked it all off?

Hmm.

brianthebard

Snickers Man wrote: »

No it's not. It's about encouraging the next generation of misguided pawns to go out and fight for what somebody else deems to be the next great cause.

Please show some evidence to back this up because its so wrong that I feel I must ask. The poppy was not set up by the generals trying to encourage more "pawns" to the battlefield, it wasn't set up to remember the glory of war, so how do you infer that it is to encourage people to join the army??

McDaid--1916

Dublin should sell poppys, same with the rest of Ireland. Although lots of irish soldiers died for the right cause(to free Ireland, as that is what they were promised) england ****ed them outa it. Wearing a poppy is a disgrace for any self respecting republican or even an Irishman.

conor2007

more english died yes

whos fault was that? - they were sent in literally to soak up bullets and to slowy force back the germans

McDaid--1916

conor2007 wrote: »

more english died yes

whos fault was that? - they were sent in literally to soak up bullets and to slowy force back the germans

Yes, they did for a dream which was a UI. They went and died and the dream wasnt granted.

By the *not so nice people* who sits confortably in her mansion in london.

conor2007

yes , but thats nothing to do with my post

Mick86

McDaid--1916 wrote: »

Victory to Sinn Fein!
Beidh ar la linn
For an Ireland of Equals
Saor Doire

Are you a Sinn Féin Supporter by any chance?

conor2007

are you a west brit? ^

McDaid--1916

Mick86 wrote: »

Are you a Sinn Féin Supporter by any chance?[/size]

No! never!?:O...what would make you think that?

Mrs. MacGyver

That has nothing to do with the issue - please stay on topic.