NCT'd the hybrid today

JHMEG

Was thinking to myself all morning long how will the tester test the emissions when the engine cuts off when the car isn't moving (actually, a bit before you come to a stop, at ~20km/h). Was thinking maybe he'd put it on the rolling road and get another lad to test the emissions while he "drove".

Anyway, got my answer, and should have expected it. They test idle emissions, not emissions under load (so out goes the rolling road idea).

When he tested it sure enough the engine was on Auto Stop as Honda call it. Everything naturally reads 0, including the rpm! It's funny to see "high idle" engine rpm also at 0.

Thinking about it on the way home there is no possibility of the car ever failing the NCT on emissions, even if something essential like the cat is borked. Then thinking is this fair.. and concluding yes it is, under the current test. But the test is slightly flawed: the NCT shouldn't really be testing emissions just at idle, as cars spend most of their time under load.

Oh, it passed on everything else too (you can't bate the Japs as my father used say)

mike65

Off topic - Have to laugh at your sig link, particulates from diesel are more dangerous than from bio fuels true, on the other hand derv is'nt robbing people in the 3rd world of land to grow basic commodities on.

As for the NCT, well I doubt they had the forsight to take account of hybrids. No-doubt they'll use rolling roads when the penny drops!

Mike.

colm_mcm

on a similar note: rotary engines are exempt from emissions testing too.

Alun

colm_mcm wrote: »

on a similar note: rotary engines are exempt from emissions testing too.

Errm, why?

colm_mcm

they just are! don't know the reason.

JHMEG

mike65 wrote: »

other hand derv is'nt robbing people in the 3rd world of land to grow basic commodities on

Wexford is hardly in the 3rd world? I didn't know they were going short of food with all those stawberries and potatoes..

mike65

I was thinking of countries like rural Brazil and Malaysia

Mike.

E92

Saying that 'diesel kills' while not incorrect is of course extremely misleading.

The implication is that petrols somehow don't kill when of course they do.

Particulates kill, that is true(but of course modern diesels produce practically none), so does Nitroux Oxide.

PM has been all but eliminated under Euro 4, and NOx will be all but eliminated under Euro 5. They are also toughening up on PM to reduce it even further for Euro 5 too.

CO2 will kill a lot more than PM will(especially as it has been reduced to such minute levels), simply because of Climate Change(and we all know that CO2 is the main cause of the world heating up). And we all know that diesels produce less of it.

What about Carbon Monoxide and Hydrocarbons, they kill too, and guess what, diesels produce less of them than petrols too.

Its funny, one of the most enviornmentally friendly methods of travel is by bus. And what fuel do buses use?

Anyway what are we doing worrying about the enviornment so much on a forum about cars:p?
There's a Green Issues forum for a reason.

colm_mcm

As well as diesel killing, it also tastes horrible.

E92

colm_mcm wrote: »

As well as diesel killing, it also tastes horrible.

And how would you know:D?

colm_mcm

saw it on a forum, and now believe it to be true.

junkyard

Is it true you have to change the batteries in these hybrid yokes every 8 years at a huge cost which would effectively make them worthless? It applies to Toyota's Prius anyway according to a Toyota mechanic I know.

colm_mcm

Toyota give an 8 year warranty on the electrical bits, this is where he might have gotten that number from.
They will deteriorate alright, don't think they'll be useless though. (by that time price of batteries will have fallen too)

E92

What about the original Prius, they're 10 years old this year. Are those batteries useless after 8 years?

JHMEG

The hybrid components all have an 8 year warranty in the Civic. There are now Priuses that are 10 years old that are on the original batteries, and I've read that none have been returned.

Mike, I was being facetious about Wexford. I've too read that there is more money in bio crops than wheat etc, and wheat reached all time high prices this summer. Mad, but wheat is internationally traded like oil is. But that's the market economy at work. It finds its own balance.

E92, there are hundreds of thosands of diesel vehicles on the roads in this country that conform to none of those standards as they pre date them. A diesel can be considered as clean burning as a petrol if it can be sold in California. I'm aware of only one and that only went on sale two weeks ago. Diesel fumes are extremely hazardous and to say diesel kills isn't misleading. It does kill.

colm_mcm

E92 wrote: »

What about the original Prius, they're 10 years old this year. Are those batteries useless after 8 years?

they weren't that great to start with

haven't heard of big problems with the original generation models.

junkyard

There were quite a few problems with the present Prius at the start and Toyota had their hands full for a bit alright but it's seems to be sorted now. I'd still be slow to buy one though as there not for everyone.........loads will look but few will buy. Even the Ford bio-fuel isn't all it's cracked up to be either, mpg figures are way down on what are listed.

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

E92, there are hundreds of thosands of diesel vehicles on the roads in this country that conform to none of those standards as they pre date them. A diesel can be considered as clean burning as a petrol if it can be sold in California. I'm aware of only one and that only went on sale on sale two weeks ago. Diesel fumes are extremely hazardous and to say diesel kills isn't misleading. It does.

Only 1 in 6 cars on our roads are diesel, and last year 1 in 4 new cars sold were diesel. Actually for the period Jan-Sep 07, diesels accounted for 27.7% of new car sales, see here, see page16) By European standards, thats still quite low. Though we are moving in a European direction alright. And Euro 4 diesels have been on sale since 2003, and they produce hardly any particulates. And Euro 4 has been mandatory since 2005,so there are plenty of clean diesels around the place. There is a page on some Government website somewhere, it is full of the stats I mentioned, but I can't find it at the moment(its something along the lines of national vehicle statistics).

And you know as well as I do that standards have tightened up hugely for petrols too. Not for nothing have they made catalytic convertors mandatory, and introduced 4 stages of emission standards, and a 5th stage is coming in in 2 years time and the next phase after that is coming in 2014.

I know diesel kills, but so does petrol hence why I said it was true but misleading. Petrol indircetly kills due to the fact that it produces more CO2 than diesel. Its depriving us of being able to breathe more than diesel.

You can't say that Carbon Monoxide or Hydrocarbons are very good for us either. And petrols produce more of those than diesel too.

colm_mcm

junkyard wrote: »

There were quite a few problems with the present Prius at the start and Toyota had their hands full for a bit alright but it's seems to be sorted now. .

The brake light recall is the only issue I remember affecting us. can't remember anything else significant.

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

Only 1 in 6 cars on our roads are diesel

I said vehicles. Every feckin truck, bus, lorry, digger, tractor... you name it, is diesel. And that's not including trains.

E92 wrote: »

And you know as well as I do that standards have tightened up hugely for petrols too.

And you know as well as I do from a recent discussion that petrol standards were always higher than diesel, still are, and probably always will be, especially in Europe where there is a large and powerful lobby of car makers who make good money from selling diesels at a premium.

E92 wrote: »

Petrol indircetly kills due to the fact that it produces more CO2 than diesel.

That's garbage.:rolleyes: Fizzy drinks are full of CO2, even the fizzy drinks that kids drink! CO2 is harmless (proven).

E92 wrote: »

You can't say that Carbon Monoxide or Hydrocarbons are very good for us either. And petrols produce more of those than diesel too.

Not good for us, but when is the last time someone died from the CO from someone else's car?

Really E92, I expected you to come up with better than that! Pah!

JHMEG

colm_mcm wrote: »

The brake light recall is the only issue I remember affecting us. can't remember anything else significant.

Colm, is there a Prius in the family? Good contrast.. the Atkinson and the MIVEC!:D

Anan1

JHMEG wrote: »

That's garbage.:rolleyes: Fizzy drinks are full of CO2, even the fizzy drinks that kids drink! CO2 is harmless (proven).

Where to start...;)

colm_mcm

JHMEG wrote: »

Colm, is there a Prius in the family? Good contrast.. the Otto and the MIVEC!:D

I sell them. I do know of someone with those two particular cars though.

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

I said vehicles. Every feckin truck, bus, lorry, digger, tractor... you name it, is diesel. And that's not including trains.

Well the only thing I'm worried about is cars. I know I somewhat misinterpreted what you said there. But since you did mean mean vehicle, the Euro series of emission standards apply to all vehicles(something I'm only just after finding out about courtesy of Wikipedia), and not just cars. So I'm sure that new trucks and buses are no dirtier to the air than a car(we'll never know because the EU measures the limits for these differently to the way for cars).
linky

JHMEG wrote:

And you know as well as I do from a recent discussion that petrol standards were always higher than diesel, still are, and probably always will be, especially in Europe where there is a large and powerful lobby of car makers who make good money from selling diesels at a premium.

I made the remarks in full knowledge of that. I know old diesels are bad. But the key is in the word old. Past tense.

And it depends on what you want to measure it on too.

The CO limit for paraffin stoves is only half of what it is for petrols. They have identical PM limits(from Euro 5 on). Petrols didn't even have a PM limit before that(I always though they produced no PM, but clearly if the EU feel a need to limit the amout of them coming from a petrol, then they must) Its difficult to measure the HC limit, because they add them together with NOx for paraffin stoves, and don't for petrols.

As for making diesels and selling them at a premium, if diesel is that bad or unimportant, why are the Japanese all after spending a fortune to develop their own diesels? Its not like the Japanese brands are a roaring success in general in Europe. And more importantly, why are the Japs now going off selling them in the US, where they(the US) don't know what diesel is for a car?

I know the car makers go and pester the EU for money for diesels and all that jazz. The EU also help make sure diesel isn't too much dearer for us to buy too AFAIK. Haven't they helped fund diesel engine development too?

But diesels are expensive to build, and to develop. Apparantly VW spends half of its engine development on oil burners, in the full knowledge that only Europe wants paraffin stoves.

I'm actually surprised that they make a decent profit from them at all. Think of all the modifications that have to be made to them, different gearboxes, stiffened suspension, retuned steering because of the extra weight etc.

JHMEG wrote: »

That's garbage.:rolleyes: Fizzy drinks are full of CO2, even the fizzy drinks that kids drink! CO2 is harmless (proven).

Why do all the eco mentalists make such a big fuss about it then especially about global warming, seeing as its 'harmless'?(I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm not an eco mentalist, hence why I'm not asking what might seem like a rethorical and/or smartass question).

JHMEG wrote: »

Not good for us, but when is the last time someone died from the CO from someone else's car?

Not for nothing is it toxic.

And yes it is bad for us.

Wikipedia.org wrote:

Toxicity
Main article: Carbon monoxide poisoning
Carbon monoxide is a significantly toxic gas and has no odor or color. It is the most common type of fatal poisoning in many countries.[15] Exposures can lead to significant toxicity of the central nervous system and heart. Following poisoning, long-term sequelae often occur. Carbon monoxide can also have severe effects on the fetus of a pregnant woman. Symptoms of mild poisoning include headaches and dizziness at concentrations less than 100 ppm.

Have I 'made the grade' now;)?