What does it mean (to you) to be irish?

Voipjunkie

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If Britain hadn't been the evil empire it was, someone else would have taken it's place. Who knows, maybe Ireland would have been off dishing it out to some other poor sod, rather than dishing it out as part of Britain. Ireland before British rule wasn't exactly a shrinking violet was it?

You are excusing Britains behaviour in Ireland on the grounds of IFs,BUTs and MAYBEs to be honest it is a very lame defense of indefensible behaviour. It is the equivalent of excusing murder on the grounds of well maybe the victim might not have been a nice person at some time in the future and maybe someone else would have killed him anyway.

Voipjunkie

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Irish famine was pretty unique and I don't think the British can be fully to blame for that. The way the British government dealt with it was shocking, but Ireland's massive population explosion and over dependance of the potato were also factors. (Yes I know there were land factors that contributed to the potato dependance as well)

Ireland was in a unique position and it was Britains misrule in Ireland and its Penal laws that had Ireland in that position.

England's population in 1801 was 8.9 million Ireland's was 5.2 million

by 1841 England was at 15.9 million Ireland was at 8.2 million

England's population explosion was larger in percentage terms and numerical terms yet no masssive famine occurred in England. Why? because the conditions that had been imposed on the majority of the population of Ireland did not pertain in England.

It should also not be forgotten that Ireland produced more than enough food to feed its population during the famine.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Take a look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre and substitute the word Manchester for Cork. This is hardly spoken about, but if it happened in Ireland McArmalite et al would be talking about it on a daily basis as another sign of British oppression in Ireland.

I would suggest that Britain treated the catholic working class in Ireland no worse than catholics or the working class in Britain. Ireland had the advantage of nationalism, the British had to rely on trade unionism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolpuddle_Martyrs it wasn't just peasants from Athenry that ended up in oz.

Britain had penal laws aimed at its own Catholic ( or rather non protestant )population that is a fact the huge difference in Irelands case is that the penal Laws in Ireland were against the vast majority of the population. The other main difference is that the Penal laws in Ireland were not just based on religion but on keeping the Native Irish population in subjugation to prevent any kind of rebellion. By keeping the Irish powerless, landless and in dire and constant poverty they hoped to keep Ireland under control.

Fratton Fred

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Ireland was in a unique position and it was Britains misrule in Ireland and its Penal laws that had Ireland in that position.

England's population in 1801 was 8.9 million Ireland's was 5.2 million

by 1841 England was at 15.9 million Ireland was at 8.2 million

England's population explosion was larger in percentage terms and numerical terms yet no masssive famine occurred in England. Why? because the conditions that had been imposed on the majority of the population of Ireland did not pertain in England.

It should also not be forgotten that Ireland produced more than enough food to feed its population during the famine.

Britain had penal laws aimed at its own Catholic ( or rather non protestant )population that is a fact the huge difference in Irelands case is that the penal Laws in Ireland were against the vast majority of the population. The other main difference is that the Penal laws in Ireland were not just based on religion but on keeping the Native Irish population in subjugation to prevent any kind of rebellion. By keeping the Irish powerless, landless and in dire and constant poverty they hoped to keep Ireland under control.

yeah, ok. I'm making my point badly (and this is way off topic).

CerebralCortex

ScottishDanny wrote: »

Strewth lads dont forget the positives! Despite all the things that are easy to list - Ireland is a great place to live and work.

Debateable.

murphaph

Indeed. The work/life balance has taken a definite swing towards living to work instead of working to live.

Far too many people spend far too long commuting. This is time they will never get back.

Latchy

I dont live in ireland now but it is the land of my birth ,were i grew up went to school and made friends ,its were my childhood memories,good and bad are ,it's were i worked and learned about the different pecuiliarities of people from county to county, and how wrongly people from different neighbourhoods were somtimes wrongly percieved,were your postal Address and who you knew (not what you new) counted in gaining employment .

One must also remember as a previous poster said other nations ie , the english are equally proud of who they are and were they come from .

pretty*monster

To me it means, in no particular order:

Feeling rather Catholic despite being an atheist.
Being appauled at the mere sight of a poorly pulled pint of Guinness.
Loathing to admit that 'craic' is not an Irish word.
Being amazingly (some might say catastrophically) tolerant of all manner of nonsense and shenanigans from politicians.
Taking a relaxed attitude to most things.

moe_sizlak

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Irish famine was pretty unique and I don't think the British can be fully to blame for that. The way the British government dealt with it was shocking, but Ireland's massive population explosion and over dependance of the potato were also factors. (Yes I know there were land factors that contributed to the potato dependance as well)

Take a look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre and substitute the word Manchester for Cork. This is hardly spoken about, but if it happened in Ireland McArmalite et al would be talking about it on a daily basis as another sign of British oppression in Ireland.

I would suggest that Britain treated the catholic working class in Ireland no worse than catholics or the working class in Britain. Ireland had the advantage of nationalism, the British had to rely on trade unionism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolpuddle_Martyrs it wasn't just peasants from Athenry that ended up in oz.

the above post could have been written by eoghan harris or indeed kevin myers

murphaph

moe_sizlak wrote: »

the above post could have been written by eoghan harris or indeed kevin myers

So what? They're also irish are they not?

djpbarry

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Britain had penal laws aimed at its own Catholic ( or rather non protestant )population that is a fact the huge difference in Irelands case is that the penal Laws in Ireland were against the vast majority of the population. The other main difference is that the Penal laws in Ireland were not just based on religion but on keeping the Native Irish population in subjugation to prevent any kind of rebellion. By keeping the Irish powerless, landless and in dire and constant poverty they hoped to keep Ireland under control.

Not sure what this has to do with "being Irish" in 2007. It was over 160 years ago - get over it.

Mr.Micro

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Irish famine was pretty unique and I

I would suggest that Britain treated the catholic working class in Ireland no worse than catholics or the working class in Britain. Ireland had the advantage of nationalism, the British had to rely on trade unionism. QUOT Fratton Fred.

Yes ,the British have always treated the working and underclasses very badly .It was not just us Irish that got it .Even to this day there is such a divide in the class system in the UK.

What Fratton Fred stated about dependence on the potato as a staple is very true ,like we have seen in the past in Africa when maize crops failed it resulted in wholesale starvation .In 1845 in Ireland the potato crop failed( thats not going into any of the politics ) as we know resulting in starvation ,as there was nothing else as a back up,so it was not just the British occupation

LordSutch

Ah to be sure we have to blame the 'British' for the famine, the centuries of terrible abuse, the torture, the 800 years of oppression, the murder, mayhem and extermination of millions of Irish by the Brits, & sure wasnt it the evil 19 year old Queen Victoria who oversaw the Irish die in the great famine (all her fault) etc, etc, etc, and sure no other people in the world have been treated so badly and inhumainly, & sure who else could we hate & blame if not those evil Brits/ English? next door.

Our very culture depends on having the evil neighbours from hell to Hate

juuge

I was having lunch with some friends in southern Italy during the summer when jackie healy rea appeared on sky news - I was never more embarrassed at being Irish in my life. Guys like him do little to enhance our reputation abroad and thanks to him and his kind, Ireland unfortunately, is still perceived as a land of gob****es.

Mr.Micro

ArthurF wrote: »

Ah to be sure we have to blame the 'British' for the famine, the centuries of terrible abuse, the torture, the 800 years of oppression, the murder, mayhem and extermination of millions of Irish by the Brits, & sure wasnt it the evil 19 year old Queen Victoria who oversaw the Irish die in the great famine (all her fault) etc, etc, etc, and sure no other people in the world have been treated so badly and inhumainly, & sure who else could we hate & blame if not those evil Brits/ English? next door.

Our very culture depends on having the evil neighbours from hell to Hate

I think that is a bit unfair .There is a great number of people in Ireland able to discuss history without total prejudice .Some are still stuck in a rut but its in their genes I am afraid. We have to move on and not always back .No country is perfect.

moe_sizlak

juuge wrote: »

I was having lunch with some friends in southern Italy during the summer when jackie healy rea appeared on sky news - I was never more embarrassed at being Irish in my life. Guys like him do little to enhance our reputation abroad and thanks to him and his kind, Ireland unfortunately, is still perceived as a land of gob****es.

jackie healey rae is one smart cookie , his whole killinaskully persona is a very successfull immage and brand , one which his son uses aswell , to great effect
i would be much more ashamed if some ross o carroll kelly plonker came on the screen

murphaph

juuge wrote: »

I was having lunch with some friends in southern Italy during the summer when jackie healy rea appeared on sky news - I was never more embarrassed at being Irish in my life. Guys like him do little to enhance our reputation abroad and thanks to him and his kind, Ireland unfortunately, is still perceived as a land of gob****es.

We are a land of gob****es though. There's no other exlanation for why we tolerate such monkeys in Dail Eireann.

Mr.Micro

juuge wrote: »

I was having lunch with some friends in southern Italy during the summer when jackie healy rea appeared on sky news - I was never more embarrassed at being Irish in my life. Guys like him do little to enhance our reputation abroad and thanks to him and his kind, Ireland unfortunately, is still perceived as a land of gob****es.

I agree with you .it is cringing to watch the likes of Healy rea and that idiot cap he wears .No wonder the world thinks we still have leprechauns , because we have him and his son.

Fratton Fred

Mr.Micro wrote: »

No wonder the world thinks we still have leprechaun.

what, when did this happen.:eek:

I'll have to start doing the lottery now:D

CerebralCortex

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Irish famine was pretty unique and I

I would suggest that Britain treated the catholic working class in Ireland no worse than catholics or the working class in Britain. Ireland had the advantage of nationalism, the British had to rely on trade unionism. QUOT Fratton Fred.

Yes ,the British have always treated the working and underclasses very badly .It was not just us Irish that got it .Even to this day there is such a divide in the class system in the UK.

What Fratton Fred stated about dependence on the potato as a staple is very true ,like we have seen in the past in Africa when maize crops failed it resulted in wholesale starvation .In 1845 in Ireland the potato crop failed( thats not going into any of the politics ) as we know resulting in starvation ,as there was nothing else as a back up,so it was not just the British occupation

Why do you think we as a nation were dependent on potatoes? Other things grow in this country, why do you think we couldn't have eaten them?

DrumSteve

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Why do you think we as a nation were dependent on potatoes? Other things grow in this country, why do you think we couldn't have eaten them?

i'm not sure what the famine has to do with how you feel about being irish.

Drexler

Being Irish today means endlessly mulling over the true nature of our identity in the media - talking about general happiness levels, our obsession with property & ownership, the decline of the Church, the right place for the Irish language, the future impact of emigration and the best way to reflect on our history.

In February we played England at Croke Park. Everything went according to plan. The singing of Amhran na BhFiann was a special moment.

Then in September we go to the world cup but we can't sing our usual national anthem. To most it's not such a big deal.

And last Monday night the rendition of Amhran na bhFiann against England is celebrated on TV as one of the moments that shook Irish sport (as voted for by viewers).

I think we have a fractured sense of our own identity. It is a serious problem. We need to get with it a bit more. In fairness.

CerebralCortex

DrumSteve wrote: »

CerebralCortex wrote: »

i'm not sure what the famine has to do with how you feel about being irish.

Just making the point that the british empire were responsible for the famine in Ireland they were the government at the time.

cabinteelytom

What does being Irish mean to me?
It means being unable to read Giraldus Cambrensis' Expugnatio Hibernica (c1175) without a sense of outrage at what was lost, and back-handed pride at the frustration expressed. Giraldus; 'This wily race must be feared far more more for it's guile than it's capacity to fight, for it's pretended acquiescence than for it's fiery passions, for it's honeyed flattery than for it's bitter abuse [and he'd never logged on to boards.ie] ,for it's venom than it's prowess in battle, for it's treachery than for it's readiness to attack , and for it's feigned friendship than for it's contemptible hostility.'...and ...'when fully submitted to the yoke of obedience, then like the people of Sicily, it should be completely forbidden the use of every sort of arms.'
There is also the enormous cultural continuity of Ireland; placenames surviving in the one language over all of recorded history, some of them regarded as having great significance to the people since antiquity (eg bronze age). In Irish the tradition of dinn seanachas , and in English a country every inch of which is called 'the holy ground'.

DrumSteve

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Just making the point that the british empire were responsible for the famine in Ireland they were the government at the time.

not too sure they were the singular cause for that particular episode of irish history....

but that is really off the topic.

fly_agaric

Fratton Fred wrote:

Yes ,the British have always treated the working and underclasses very badly .It was not just us Irish that got it

Yes, but the British upper classes always treated the subhuman "wogs" in the glorious Empire worse than they treated their white lackeys.
I think Ireland's population was somewhere a tad above the other natives in their estimation (maybe partly why they didn't wipe us out in a genocide which I'm sure Empire apologists would be saying wasn't really all that bad...) but definitely below the working classes on the Mainland (I love that phrase:)). I don't believe the famine would have been allowed happen in Britain proper - but it could certainly happen to the natives in India, in Africa, in Australia or....in Ireland.

MeatProduct

I have difficulty logically understanding why anyone would be proud of being from a certain nation, I understand the emotional need. However, you are not your country and your country is not you. It is a false identification of self. Of course we all like to belong to something greater but, for me, it's a method of running away from ourselves psychologically. Everything in moderation though as we do have to accept our humanity. Supporting your nation playing a sport is reasonable, supporting your nation in killing people is not.

This notion of being proud because our ancestors killed people is moronic. We can be happy that they stood up for what they believe (I'm sure many did) but not about killing people as I'm sure our ancestors had to struggle with their own demons in doing so. We do seem to think that by killing our problems everything will be fine but look at how many people have been killed in this planet's history, is everything fine yet? Let's just kill a few more people so that we can bury this feeling of insecurity, this lack of meaning in our lives....

It is nice to see Irish pubs in every country I go to, it gives an emotional connection to my home but do I feel proud to be Irish, not really. Not much to be proud of.

Looking at Ireland today I do not see moral actions, unwavered by monetary influence. I do not see rightmindedness overcome material mindedness. As a society we waste away in front of our TV screens, seeking to be entertained by the next scandal. Mindlessly allowing the unfiltered contented pass into the alpha state brain.

It makes far more sense to be proud of our individual actions that stand for greatness. Be proud of who you are, use that pride to improve yourself, to push yourself beyond your own limits. Ultimately all pride is misplaced but while we have it we can use it for good.

Nick

bangmangi

At long last a sensible post on this topic.
The whole idea of being proud of something you had no part or say in is a non-starter. I'm not proud to be Irish, simply because I had nothing to do with the fact that I'm Irish. It's like saying you're proud that the sky is blue.

djpbarry

Agreed.

Nice post, MeatProduct.

Latchy

Asssuming that the OP's question is aimed mainly at irish people in ireland but also for the thousends of irish like me married to non- irish people it's being happy from were you come from ,while also excepting ,understanding and learning of others cultures beliefs and quirks .

Well said Nick

Erin Go Brath

Why shouldn't people be proud to be Irish? (or an nationality/ethnic group for that matter)

When I was in America I met lots of people wearing green Irish t-shirts. These people, a lot of them never set foot in Ireland, but are immensely proud of their Irish roots (much prouder than most Irish people are of their Irishness). Who am I, or anyone to tell them 1)They're American, not Irish, 2)being proud of their heritage is like being proud the sky is blue.

If it makes them happier to call themselves Irish, and to be proud of their Irish heritage then its an exercise worth pursuing imo.