What does it mean (to you) to be irish?

djpbarry

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Why shouldn't people be proud to be Irish?

How can you take pride in something you had no control over? It might make more sense to say you were glad you were born in Ireland, rather than elsewhere.

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

When I was in America I met lots of people wearing green Irish t-shirts. These people, a lot of them never set foot in Ireland, but are immensely proud of their Irish roots (much prouder than most Irish people are of their Irishness).

So they are proud of:

1. The fact that they dressed themselves in green? Takes a lot of commitment, that.
2. Being Irish, even though they never set foot in Ireland? Based on my own experience, so-called Irish-Americans struggle to name even a handful of Irish towns. How can one take pride in this?

I would imagine my roots, as is the case with most people, could be traced to various parts of the world. My surname, for example, is of French origin. Taking "pride" in any of this would be no different to me taking pride in my DNA, i.e. it makes no sense.

And on the subject of Americans, I will never understand why so many of them have so much trouble accepting the fact they are American, plain and simple.

Latchy

Quote Eirn go bradth -Why shouldn't people be proud to be Irish? (or an nationality/ethnic group for that matter)

The sell irish product to the non-irish around the world has being very succsessfull , you only have to look at the tourisim in the country (and the tacky goods on sale in the shops to see that ) and the ex-pats around the world will educate their children about irish culture, bar the commercialism aspect ,so in that sense they dont buy into the bull ...

No nationality has a monopoply on being proud of their race either, just the irish seem to do it better than others

Erin Go Brath

djpbarry wrote: »

How can you take pride in something you had no control over? It might make more sense to say you were glad you were born in Ireland, rather than elsewhere.

So they are proud of:

1. The fact that they dressed themselves in green? Takes a lot of commitment, that.
2. Being Irish, even though they never set foot in Ireland? Based on my own experience, so-called Irish-Americans struggle to name even a handful of Irish towns. How can one take pride in this?

I would imagine my roots, as is the case with most people, could be traced to various parts of the world. My surname, for example, is of French origin. Taking "pride" in any of this would be no different to me taking pride in my DNA, i.e. it makes no sense.

And on the subject of Americans, I will never understand why so many of them have so much trouble accepting the fact they are American, plain and simple.

Fair point, 'glad' may be a more appropriate adjective than 'proud' to describe been born in Ireland. I would be proud to be Irish if we won a major football game though for example. Drinking in a pub wearing an Irish jersey with lots of other Irish people watching the game would be a shared experience we would all have in common even if I didn't know said people. We could be proud that 'our boys' beat Germany, England etc. Being proud to be Irish is usually just relevant when abroad. People hear the accent, and have their ideas of you based on that. Irish people are fairly well regarded in most places in my experience.

With Americans who are arguably the most patriotic nation in the world, identity seems to be all important. Its not enough for them to be American it seems, but to identify with whatever ethnic grouping they come from. Its important for them to describe themselves as Irish to fellow Americans, and Irish-American if they're abroad. If that makes them happy, well thats good enough for me.

Latchy

With Americans who are arguably the most patriotic nation in the world, identity seems to be all important. Its not enough for them to be American it seems, but to identify with whatever ethnic grouping they come from. Its important for them to describe themselves as Irish to fellow Americans, and Irish-American if they're abroad. If that makes them happy, well thats good enough for me.

You could add Canadians,Australians and the Irish in britain to that as well , just that the latter are nearer to home.

jmayo

DrumSteve wrote: »

CerebralCortex wrote: »

i'm not sure what the famine has to do with how you feel about being irish.

IMO the famine and the years of living as largely a tenant class under British/English rule has a lot to do with Irish people's outlook to this very day.
It can go a long way to explain why Irish people, and not just those in Ireland, are so hell bent on owning their own little bit of property ?
It also goes to show why the word eviction is so very emotive to this very day.
You can play with semantics and say that the landlords were themselves Irish, but they usually did not consider themselves to be Irish and were held in place by the the British establishment.

The "enlightened" ones amongst us may want to see our neighbours do well in soccer, rugby or even that cr** eurovision contest, but a very sizeable majority of Irish people want to see our ould enemy get their come uppance.
Part of this can be explained by antipathy towards England/Britain (what they did to us as a nation historically) and part of it is probably because neighbours rarely want to see each other do well.
This is particularly true of the mindset of the subservent one in the relationship.
Ask Kiwis if they want to see Aussies win ?

Why shouldn't people be proud of themselves, their home, their village, their town, their country.
Has anyone not thought that maybe the problem is we are not proud enough of our country?
Maybe if we cared more about our country and it's future, then we would not tolerate our own leaders screwing us as a people over the last 80 odd years ?

Erin Go Brath

latchyco wrote: »

You could add Canadians,Australians and the Irish in britain to that as well , just that the latter are nearer to home.

Yep, and many more countries besides. So I guess to go back to the thread title topic, it means a lot for these people to call themselves Irish.

Of course we sometimes get negative press too; labelled alcoholics or thickos. I remember watching an Irish rugby game in an Irish pub in OZ. There was too many Irish in the lineout, and the free was given to the opposition. One of the Aussie commentators said "Ireland has too many in the lineout, the extra player is Malcolm O Kelly", the other commentator added "he has a degree in mathematics", to which the first commentator quipped, "yeh, Irish mathematics". To which they both chuckled. The Irish lads in the pub didnt find that one funny. Damn Ozzies.

djpbarry

jmayo wrote: »

It can go a long way to explain why Irish people, and not just those in Ireland, are so hell bent on owning their own little bit of property?

Not sure about that. A desire to acquire property seems to be a common trait in people the world over.

jmayo wrote: »

The "enlightened" ones amongst us may want to see our neighbours do well in soccer, rugby or even that cr** eurovision contest,

No, not really, but, for me at least, that has nothing to do with history. I am always pleased when England are beaten because their media build them up so much. Every time a world cup or European championship comes around, England are automatically installed as favourites, regardless of current form. I like to see them brought back down to Earth with a bump !

Having said that, I have to say fair play to them for making it to the rugby world cup final. They achieved a great deal more than Ireland did with a (arguably) poorer group of players. But I'm still glad they didn't win it because we never would have heard the end of it !

jmayo wrote: »

but a very sizeable majority of Irish people want to see our ould enemy get their come uppance.

Eh, we still talking about sport?

jmayo wrote: »

Part of this can be explained by antipathy towards England/Britain (what they did to us as a nation historically) and part of it is probably because neighbours rarely want to see each other do well.

Don't kid yourself. A large number of people in this country hate the English purely for the sake of hating them. It has little to do with a bit of "neighbourly rivalry".

jmayo wrote: »

Why shouldn't people be proud of themselves, their home, their village, their town, their country.

There's nothing wrong with taking pride in your own achievements, or the achievements of friends and family. Don't get me wrong, I am as passionate a follower of Irish sport as the next person. But, if I were born in another European country, assuming all other aspects of my life were the same, (i.e. same family, friends, education, etc.) I really don't think I would be terribly different as a person.

jmayo wrote: »

Maybe if we cared more about our country and it's future, then we would not tolerate our own leaders screwing us as a people over the last 80 odd years ?

You're mixing up two very different things here. Just because someone is not "proud to be Irish", it does not mean they are not concerned about the future of the country. I for one am not terribly optimistic about the future of Irish society.

jmayo

djpbarry wrote: »

: Not sure about that. A desire to acquire property seems to be a common trait in people the world over.

It may be common world over but look at the Irish propensity to have their own little bit of land.
Have you ever noticed how many Irish people put walls, hedges etc around their gardens in housing estates ?
We like to stake out our plot. Particularly noticable amongst those form farming background.

djpbarry wrote: »

No, not really, but, for me at least, that has nothing to do with history. I am always pleased when England are beaten because their media build them up so much. Every time a world cup or European championship comes around, England are automatically installed as favourites, regardless of current form. I like to see them brought back down to Earth with a bump !

Having said that, I have to say fair play to them for making it to the rugby world cup final. They achieved a great deal more than Ireland did with a (arguably) poorer group of players. But I'm still glad they didn't win it because we never would have heard the end of it !

Yes part of it is due to the media, but in 1990 WC I never realised we had so many Cameroonian (splelling ???) fans in the West of Ireland, which was not overrun by British media at the time.

djpbarry wrote: »

Don't kid yourself. A large number of people in this country hate the English purely for the sake of hating them. It has little to do with a bit of "neighbourly rivalry".

Some people do hate the English. It was drummed into lots of people at school or by parents and there are those that do feel they have and are screwing us as a people to this day. That is just the way it is.
But there are those that don't like Britain or more particularly England and part of it maybe the neighbour thing. You not wanting them to win the RWC could even be explained by that, we have close associations with them and share media etc and we don't want to be continually reminded of their sucsesses.

djpbarry wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with taking pride in your own achievements, or the achievements of friends and family. Don't get me wrong, I am as passionate a follower of Irish sport as the next person. But, if I were born in another European country, assuming all other aspects of my life were the same, (i.e. same family, friends, education, etc.) I really don't think I would be terribly different as a person.

You're mixing up two very different things here. Just because someone is not "proud to be Irish", it does not mean they are not concerned about the future of the country. I for one am not terribly optimistic about the future of Irish society.

Where you are from does not make you a good person or a bad person but it does affect your character.
I think where and who you hail from can have a large bearing on your outlook, perceptions, believes etc.
If you were from Poland would you care if England won the RWC, probably not because firstly you wouldn't give a cr** about rugby and secondly it may not affect you as you are not neighbours.

I am not saying if you are not proud of Ireland you don't care about it's future, but I think we as a people put up with too much.
Maybe if we were prouder of our country, we would stamp our collective feet and demand better from our leaders and elected politicians.

Why do we condone our elected representatives breaking laws, lying and effectively taking kickbacks etc?
We (as a nation) still view the likes of Berties antics as getting one over on the establishment.
We seem to almost worship the wide boy, the cute hoor.
Instead we still almost consider the establishment to be "them" (years ago that meant the English) or at least not our own.

I know going off topic but we are asking what it is to be Irish.

leninbenjamin

DrumSteve wrote: »

i'm not sure what the famine has to do with how you feel about being irish.

i'm not 100% sure about this, but I remember hearing before about a "famine" gene. it was in relation to the workings of the digestive system, but it showed people can generate certain genetic traits in response to trauma, so perhaps it's not outlandish to suggest that the famine might have had a hand in creating the personality of your average Irishman.

edit:

It may be common world over but look at the Irish propensity to have their own little bit of land.
Have you ever noticed how many Irish people put walls, hedges etc around their gardens in housing estates ?
We like to stake out our plot. Particularly noticable amongst those form farming background.

without a doubt i think you've stumbled on possibly the most dominant common trait that a huge proportion of Irish have (with exception to a certain fondness of "pubs" perhaps). if you look at the the housing boom, people were investing in crap where there was no facilities, no amenities just for the sake of having their own little plot. compare Dublin to Los Angeles, Dublin covers a similar acreage but has a much smaller population density, predominantly because there seems to be a rejection by many to living in high rise... and despite the failings of the housing market we're still invsting a huge amount in property, albeit abroad. you'd think people would have though to spread their eggs a little in the current slowdown

cabinteelytom

' not proud to be Irish'...Does that make you a self-hating Irishman?

I am proud of being Irish, and consider self-esteem to be a good thing, and to harm no-one else. 'Everyone has the right to a nationality' is in the UN universal declaration of the rights of man. No apologies.
Proud of our country-in the sense of the real estate? Maybe James Connolly was right; 'Ireland as distinct from her people means nothing to me'.
'in Ireland today I see no moral actions'...a bit sweeping! Strange to think, when we were idealistic, we were the most hated people in the empire (integrated over timescale of centuries; conceivably the most hated anywhere: there were periods of peace with France). Now we are like the baby on the cover of Nevermind chasing the bait of the dollar, we are at last controllable.Now that we are greedy, we can be loved.

LostinBlanch

cabinteelytom wrote: »

What does being Irish mean to me?
It means being unable to read Giraldus Cambrensis' Expugnatio Hibernica (c1175) without a sense of outrage at what was lost, and back-handed pride at the frustration expressed

Nah it just means you can't trust the Welsh. Slag the Irish off and become Archbishop of Canterbury. So that shows his impartiality!

As for all the talk about the famine, it shows in the property bubble of the last 10 - 15 years or so. Without being forced to subdivide the land due to penal laws Irish Catholics weren't able to support themselves when the famine occured. The they were thrown off the land and left to starve. So having your own land or property meant you could survive. This is still at the heart of the Irish psyche and explains why we are willing to pay so much over the odds for a roof over our heads.

Jmayo. You've hit the nail on the head there. In the 80's everybody voted for Charlie in the knowledge that he was . . . . in the language of the time " a stroker who'll do a stroke or two for us as well."

So why act all surprised when others in his govt looked after themselves?

But that bit about the establishment being akin to the brits and not really us did sum it up. But there's been no brits since 1922 so who can we blame it on now?

Going back to Charlie's era he did bring out an ad campaign that said "Health cuts hurt the old, the sick and the aged."

Has anybody told Bertie, Mary, Brendan Drumm? Or don't they remember?

jmayo

LostinBlanch wrote: »

As for all the talk about the famine, it shows in the property bubble of the last 10 - 15 years or so. Without being forced to subdivide the land due to penal laws Irish Catholics weren't able to support themselves when the famine occured. The they were thrown off the land and left to starve. So having your own land or property meant you could survive. This is still at the heart of the Irish psyche and explains why we are willing to pay so much over the odds for a roof over our heads.

Jmayo. You've hit the nail on the head there. In the 80's everybody voted for Charlie in the knowledge that he was . . . . in the language of the time " a stroker who'll do a stroke or two for us as well."

So why act all surprised when others in his govt looked after themselves?

But that bit about the establishment being akin to the brits and not really us did sum it up. But there's been no brits since 1922 so who can we blame it on now?

Going back to Charlie's era he did bring out an ad campaign that said "Health cuts hurt the old, the sick and the aged."

Has anybody told Bertie, Mary, Brendan Drumm? Or don't they remember?

Watching our overpaid irrelevant president on TV on friday night it was noticable how she was squawking the FF party line. Sure aren't we great, we don't have to emigrate anymore and we have wonderful roads and such.
Yes the road that she is chauffered North on, in the car that we pay for, is a pretty good road, but why doesn't she get out and experience the rest of our transport infrastructure without her escort and state car.

Of course maybe she does while the state car is chauffering her kids to their jobs/college :rolleyes:

Mary "the hut" does indeed know that health cuts and increased waiting lists affect the old and sick. Call me cynical but her relatives seem to get past these waiting lists and I bet they didn't spend time on hospital trolleys either.
BTW over last few months I have had an elderly relative in hospital, that thanks to our current health system got to spend time on trolley and then contracted MRSA, so don't expect me to have sympathy for her or her relatives.

I am very proud of what some of this country's people and emigrants have achieved, sometimes against huge barriers and impossible odds, but I am ashamed what this country's voters have continously re-elected.

BTW I am not talking about sports people here, but the thousands of people who emigrated with nothing and then created new lives for themselves and their descendents. Their descendents today are in positions of power and influence thoughout the world.