2007 - the end of an era?

E92

Anyone read todays edition of the German newspaper Die Welt?

Basically if you did you will have seen that on page 2 there will be a debate soon in the German national parliament about adopting blanket speedlimits for all of Germany's famous Autobahns beginning from Jan 1 2008. The blanket limit will be 130, it will save 2.5 million(could have been billion, don't have the paper to hand so not 100% sure) tonnes of CO2 per year, it will cost 'nothing' and apparanrtly has the support of 2/3 rds of the german politicans according to its proponants.

interestingly or perhaps that should be worryingly, despite the Chancellor again ruling out the idea this weekend in response to the solcailists vote that there should be a blanket limit, one of the government parties(the socialists) is in favour of the blanket limit.

perhaps someone who is better at German than I am coukld tell us more about this, cause it horrifys me that I'll never get the chance to go flat out in Germany with me as the driver.

crosstownk

I heard an interview on Morning Ireland yesterday morning about the same thing. Apparently, the introduction of speed limits on the currently unlimited sections of the Autobahnen is very unlikely during the term of the current government. What happens after that is not clear.

Is there an english version of Die Welt online?

C_Breeze

Meh . Couldnt care less.

I dont live in Germnay, and if im that desperate to go "flat out" the M50 or M1 after 1 am is pretty good.

Id like to see performace car sales in germany take a hit because of this .

peasant

Just read the online version.

This far from decided yet. The SPD (second largest party, currently in a big coalition with the CDU) has decided on their party conference agains their leaderships official line that they are FOR a blanket speed limit (not for the first time)

The CDU is against it.

Now the Greens (currently in opposition) want to bring a motion into parliament to introduce a blanket speed limit, more or less taking the SPD delegates by their word.

It's a discussion that has been had umpteen times ever since the first oil crisis in the 70's.

It's a very divisive discussion as well. There are good arguments for a speed limit (CO2, less fuel usage, more safety) and lots against (motor industry fears for jobs, invidiuals for their "freedom")


In my opinion this blanket speed limit is going to come at some stage ...but probably not just yet.

Alun

Here's the link in case there are any more German speakers here ... http://www.welt.de/politik/article1314565/Die_Gruenen_machen_ernst_mit_dem_Tempolimit_.html

As peasant points out it's a discussion that's been going on for yonks, certainly when I was living there in the 80's. It's a shame though, because unlike what is often portrayed here, it isn't purely about stonking down the autobahns at 250-300km/h in your Porsche or whatever. Just being free to choose your own speed, whatever that may be, without worrying about speed cameras or whatever, is actually quite a liberating experience. FWIW even when I've been driving cars that have been well capable of higher speeds, the novelty, especially on longer journeys, quickly wears off (the concentration required at speeds of 200km/h or more can tire you out) and I generally settle down to anywhere between 150 and 180 km/h depending on conditions.

peasant

btw

Just because there is no speed limit doesn't mean that you can bolt down the Autobahn at whatever speed you want / can wring out of your yoke.

Depending on the conditions and amount of traffic on the road, the police will quite happily hand you a ticket and points for dangerous driving, if you overdo it.

And should you have an accident due to excessive speed, you may all of a sudden find a not so friendly insurance solicitor at your doorstep, asking for all the money back that they had to fork out on the claims against you.

Speed limit or no speed limit.

Alun

peasant wrote: »

And should you have an accident due to excessive speed, you may all of a sudden find a not so friendly insurance solicitor at your doorstep, asking for all the money back that they had to fork out on the claims against you.

And it doesn't necessarily have to be that excessive (in absolute terms) either thanks to the good old Richtgeschwindigkeit. (130km/h)

RobAMerc

But it would be the end of an era - this is sad.

Particularly sad if it was Green policies which killed it off, the French will be happy though!

E92

peasant wrote: »

Just because there is no speed limit doesn't mean that you can bolt down the Autobahn at whatever speed you want / can wring out of your yoke.

Depending on the conditions and amount of traffic on the road, the police will quite happily hand you a ticket and points for dangerous driving, if you overdo it.

And should you have an accident due to excessive speed, you may all of a sudden find a not so friendly insurance solicitor at your doorstep, asking for all the money back that they had to fork out on the claims against you.

Speed limit or no speed limit.

Thats all the more reason not to have a speed limit, there is already quite an incentive not to exceed 130 as it is.

I read in the Irish Times today(there is just a little snippet on the front page of the motoring supplement) that Merkel had ruled it out (again) and it was being postponed for another while(and the VDA said that the reduction in CO2 would be so small as to make no difference) but then I happened to see Die Welt and I saw the word 'Tempolimit' on the front page, so naturally having read what the Irish Times had to say I wanted to know more, so then when I saw what I'm after reporting today, I was horrified, cause naturally I would consider what a German newspaper to be saying about it's own country far more seriously than an Irish newspaper.

astraboy

C_Breeze wrote: »

Id like to see performace car sales in germany take a hit because of this .

Why? Because all the evil Porsche's and Merc's are destroying the polar bears is it? :rolleyes:

JHMEG

It wouldn't be that big a deal. You can still go to the 'ring and drive at whatever speed you want.

Anan1

JHMEG wrote: »

It wouldn't be that big a deal. You can still go to the 'ring and drive at whatever speed you want.

The Ring doesn't actually go anywhere.;)

E92

Well if there are speed limits everywhere, it stands to reason that more people will want to go there(to the 'Ring) and drive at an unlimited speed, which would either mean that they don't change the price and everyone waits longer(its €15 a lap at present), or they make it even more expensive, and that would deter many people from going(especially the Germans, because they don't see the point in spending a cent more than is absolutely necessary).

Also, the 'Ring is not covered by your vehicle insurance(AFAIK), and it you have a crash, you are fined per hour you close it(€1800 per hour AFAIK), so no I think its not at all true to say that it would make no difference.

The real worry is not only will it damage the German economy(they say it will result in the loss of thousands of jobs, which conmsidering that they're not too long out of a recession is hardly the thing they need), but more importantly the consequences it will have in the future, I mean its hardly a secret that the EU want all cars to be fitted with speed limiters(and I don't mean the gentlemens agreement of 250 km/h), there are socialist MEPs(one of them is a British Lim Dem, can't remember the twats name) in the EU who want to ban any car that can exceed 165 km/h from being sold.

To make the argument about safeety is nonsense, simply because German Government studies have show as recently as 2005 that Autobahns with no speed limit are no more dangerous than those with a speed limit. The average speed on an Autobahn with no speed limit is 150 km/h.

And having had the chance to read Die Welt, I see its 2.5 million tonnes, a lot you might say, but in fairness its a drop in the ocean for a country the size of Germany.


I think its quite ironic that this country is meant to be upgrading its Dual Carriageways(the ones that are Motorways in all but name, of which there are approiximately 500 km in the country at present) to Motorways, and bringing a speed limit increase of 20 km/h along with it, while the Germans are seriously consideringt making their Motorways go slower.

peasant

Oh, but there is a safety issue here ...

At the time the motorways didn't get a speed limit (and all other roads did), your average car was hard pressed to keep up a speed of over 100 km/h for longer than 10 minutes

Up until the early nineties your average car was just about capable of reaching a cruising speed of 130 - 140 kmh ...speeding as we know it was the domain of a few.

These days even your average runabout can happily cruise at 160 km/h all day and your standard family saloon does near enough to 200.

All the while half (or more of) the traffic on the motorway does have a speed limit ...trucks that is ...80 km/h.

So, these days you got one lane on the motorway doing 80 or thereabouts and the other one doing possibly twice that speed, making it very dangerous to cross from one lane to the other.

Accidents, if and when they happen are usually very severe and rarely without fatalities.

E92

crosstownk wrote: »

I heard an interview on Morning Ireland yesterday morning about the same thing. Apparently, the introduction of speed limits on the currently unlimited sections of the Autobahnen is very unlikely during the term of the current government. What happens after that is not clear.

Yes I'm after hearing it, it's highly unlikely that it won't happen till 2009 at the earliest(when the elections come), and the Socialits(SPD) say they want it but it was passed by an ever so small majority, and the Ex-SPD chancellor Gerhard Schröder once famously said that the Germans are an "Autofahrennation"(a nation of drivers) and as such a speed limit would not be accepted by the German public(apparantly 2/3rds of the the German people are opposed to a blanket speed limit), and your man on Morning Ireland say that 1/2 of Autobahns have a speed limit, I thought it was 2/3rds so thats good to hear anyway

See here.

E92

peasant wrote: »

Oh, but there is a safety issue here ...

At the time the motorways didn't get a speed limit (and all other roads did), your average car was hard pressed to keep up a speed of over 100 km/h for longer than 10 minutes

Up until the early nineties your average car was just about capable of reaching a cruising speed of 130 - 140 kmh ...speeding as we know it was the domain of a few.

These days even your average runabout can happily cruise at 160 km/h all day and your standard family saloon does near enough to 200.

All the while half (or more of) the traffic on the motorway does have a speed limit ...trucks that is ...80 km/h.

So, these days you got one lane on the motorway doing 80 or thereabouts and the other one doing possibly twice that speed, making it very dangerous to cross from one lane to the other.

Accidents, if and when they happen are usually very severe and rarely without fatalities.

Well I have to say you're giving more and more reasons why your country should not adopt speed limits. I'm well aware of the situation with trucks(which are actually limited to 90 km/h) and the problem of the Elephantenrennen (the so called Elephant race, the problem arises from the fact that so much traffic on German Autobahns is commercial vehicles), but Germany always had a superb train service, and more importantly, the jobs HGVs are doing today were always done on the train network, so why can't the Government go back and incentivise this again, especially since they're so worried about this issue?

As for the whole speeding issue, modern cars are infinately safer(as the whole EURO NCAP tests prove), they are fitted with much more sophistcated systems for preventing accidents like bigger and bettter brakes, ESP etc, and when they do happen there are airbags and crumple zones for a reason,(besides once you go over a certain speed, you're going to die anyway, I think it is about 40 mph or 65 km/h even in a 5 star car) so I don't see what the problem there is with speed.

The safety issue has affected the Autobahn ever since it's inception, why are they only worrying about it now?

And as peasant pointed out, they have been talking about blanket speed limits for so long(the 80s was when it all started), and each time its been mentioned, it hasn't happened(incidentally the Greens for all their talk never got around to introducing blanket limits when they were in power in Germany, so I don't know what they're so bothered about all of asudden)

unkel

Very good points all 'round!

Alun wrote: »

unlike what is often portrayed here, it isn't purely about stonking down the autobahns at 250-300km/h in your Porsche or whatever. Just being free to choose your own speed, whatever that may be, without worrying about speed cameras or whatever, is actually quite a liberating experience. FWIW even when I've been driving cars that have been well capable of higher speeds, the novelty, especially on longer journeys, quickly wears off (the concentration required at speeds of 200km/h or more can tire you out) and I generally settle down to anywhere between 150 and 180 km/h depending on conditions.

Motors section post of the year imho.

10-10-20

I got a taxi over there once and it involved a 15 mile run down the Autobahn. Was chatting to the driver in broken German and he noted my interest in cars (his being a run-of-the-mill E-class) and he decided to show me the full potential of the beast...

Well, for my €30 I got a high speed run at 220kmph (137mph) for a good 8 minutes!

I laughed my ass off when I arrived at the customer's site with the sound of tinkling from the roasting hot exhaust...

JHMEG

unkel wrote: »

Motors section post of the year imho.

The same argument is used by the National Rifle Association in the US.
"Everyone should be free to carry a gun." But in all fairness we need to be more responsible than that! There are nutbags out there.

The US reduced the speed limit to 55mph to save "gas" during the 1970s, so this idea is not new. IMHO this is not actually a bad idea, as VRT and the price of fuel alone are not discouraging people from wasting it.

I suppose you could say car ownership carries new responsibility in light of dwindling fossil fuel supplies. Some people won't comply unless forced to do so with laws and legislation.

E92

This year I got a taxi from a train station there and the taxi driver took me there in a W211 E220 CDI, speed limit on the road was only 70 km/h(the same road in this country would qualify for 100 km/h here!), so what did the driver do? Drove me there at 140 km/h! I was very impressed needless to say. It reminded again how good a modern diesel is, I know that much!

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

The US reduced the speed limit to 55mph to save "gas" during the 1970s, so this idea is not new. IMHO this is not actually a bad idea, as VRT and the price of fuel alone are not discouraging people from wasting it.

I think you'll find that the speed limits in the US have gone up since then, it was 65 mph when I was there for their 'highways', and that was 6 years ago, and some states had a 70 mph limit.

If they could get the whole bioethanol problem sorted we could instantly reduce our carbon footprint by 80%, making the arguments for speed limits/lower speed limits even more unjustifiable.

For the record, I've been on an Autobahn with no speed limit(at 180 km/h) in an E39 520i, I wasn't the driver, but I could sense that what Alun said about seriously high speed driving to be 100% true.

You approach cars very quickly if they are going a good deal slower than you are, you pass by other cars very quickly, and it looks to me to be a very demanding and tiring thing to be going flat out all day every day. The E39 while normally an extremely refined and quiet car gets very noisy above 150 km/h, as in it would be tiresome for a long journey. Its like most Jap cars at 100 km/h. So driving a car that is prone to wind noise and tyre roar at Motorway speeds in this country would be seriously painfull going flat out.

140-150 km/h doesn't feel a lot faster than our Motorways, but believe me, go past the ton as its called in old money(160 km/h) and its a completely different world.

It is a very enjoyable and exhillarating experience to be a mere spectator travelling above 160 km/h and being in a car when the driver puts the foot down to the floor getting the gorgeous sounding straight 6 to work flat out to pick up speed as much as it can. It definately raises the heartbeat, I know it certainly raised mine:D!

But even as a passenger I could tell that you really need your wits about you, even with the German's superb driving manners, and as I mentioned already, faults which simply do not exist in cars in this country suddenly become apparant at those speeds(such as the fact that the E39 gets very noisy at those speeds and the 520i's reluctance to go above 180 km/h).

peasant

Somehow I still think the "The mythos Autobahn" is the somewhat insane reason for the excessive automotive engineering that's going on at the moment.

Everywhere else in the world has speed limits ...we all know oil is finite ...we all know that burning fuel isn't doing the environement any favours... yet we all happily buy (and demand) family cars that are ever more powerful and ever faster. (Not to mention stupid excesses like the Porsche Cayennes of this world)

Do we need all that power and speed? Nope
Can we use it? Really ? (yeah, yeah ... faster, safer overtaking:D ...what's the rush anyway?)

The sooner the German Autbahns get a speed limit, the sooner we can all get over this mental block (if only we had an Autobahn then I could drive this car at 200 km/h all day) and buy (and demand) the type of car that makes sense for our driving conditions and the dwindling resources.

E92

peasant wrote: »

Do we need all that power and speed? Nope
Can we use it? Really ? (yeah, yeah ... faster, safer overtaking:D ...what's the rush anyway?)

But isn't the whole point of having no speed limits that if you don't want to make use of you car's performance you don't have to.

Thats the beauty of the unlimited Autobahn, if you want to go fast then you are free to do so, if you don't and feel an urgent need to save the planet, well what are you doing driving on the Autobahn in the first place? Unlike in this country, Gerrmany actually has a train system that works(and is often faster than the Autobahn too AFAIK), goes frequently, 24 hour train services aren't uncommon etc.

The Germans are spending a fortune on new rail links, they are straightening out bits of rail connecting the large cities and saving up to 1 1/2 hours on the journey time to these large cities. Every third word coming out of the conservative Chancellor Angela Merkel's mouth is to do with Climate Change.

She doesn't see the need for a speed limit, and the socialists(SPD) leadership don't see a need for them either(and nobody could say the Germans have their head stuck in the sand when it comes to climate change), so if some of those seriously concerned about Climate Change don't see a need for them, then I certainly don't either.

That coupled with the fact that the EU are agreeing legislation to have an average CO2 output from new cars means that it isall the more pointless. Having blanket limits a bit like saying that getting from Cork to Belfast(a distance of 420 km) in 6 hours is an awful lot better than doing it in 6 hours and 5 mins. At that end of the scale its still a bloody long time! But to extend the analogy, I'm not denying that it would be bad for the enviornment to have blanket limits. But the difference to pollution is so small that it makes no difference and is therefore pointless.

Even the SPD have said the measure would only be a 'symbolic' one. So even some of the proponents of a speed limit admit it will make little or no difference to the enviornment. As I've said already, the safety issue is older than I am. It hasn't bothered Germans yet, so how can it all of a sudden bother them now(especially as only 28,000 of the 328,000 accidents on Germany's roads are on a Motorway).

If you don't like going fast then don't go fast, it's really that simple.

daedalus2097

And the Germans know how to use the autobahns - those people who wanna do 100km/h can quite happily do that in the rightmost lane - if you find one of them in the overtaking lanes he's probably Irish I spend a bit of time in Germany and I have to say I love the Autobahn - 2 hour cruise from the airport to my job at 160-180km/h. Where there are speed limits they by and large stick to them - unlike us - and they leave plenty of space normally - unlike us. It's the way motorways should be and it'd be sad to see them capped, but they'd never ever work here.

unkel

JHMEG wrote: »

I suppose you could say car ownership carries new responsibility in light of dwindling fossil fuel supplies. Some people won't comply unless forced to do so with laws and legislation.

Good point although I believe more in pricing than in laws and legislation. Let's start by applying appropriate pollution / fuel usage taxes on extreme luxury first. I don't mean for a sales rep traversing Germany doing 200km/h all year around for work. I mean for the same sales rep flying to the canaries for his holidays or to New York for his Christmas shopping

JHMEG wrote: »

The same argument is used by the National Rifle Association in the US.
"Everyone should be free to carry a gun."

Meh. Plenty of fools in the US shooting themselves and / or others by accident or otherwise. Very few fatal traffic accidents on Germany's Autobahns

E92

unkel wrote: »

Good point although I believe more in pricing than in laws and legislation. Let's start by applying appropriate pollution / fuel usage taxes on extreme luxury first. I don't mean for a sales rep traversing Germany doing 200km/h all year around for work. I mean for the same sales rep flying to the canaries for his holidays or to New York for his Christmas shopping

As I said in the post about oil now being $96 a barrel,

E92 wrote:

funnily or shouuld that be ironically enough if it wasn't for the EU fussing about the pedestrian safety regulations, which resulted in cars having to be designed more unaerodynamically(the thing about the shape of the bonnet and all that) and made them heavier, which in turn meant that cars need to have bigger engines and in turn means that cars are all larded up and using a lot more fuel than needed.

And to top it off the EU signs an open skies agreement, which means we can all fly cheaper and more often to the US, hardly the recipie for rewducing pollution and this combined with the desire to have blanket speed limits on Germany's Autobahns(and the prospect of the higheest limit anywhere in the EU being only 100 km/h) ultimately shows what hippocrits the EU are when it comes to tackling climate change and oil prices

I'm inclined to completely agree with you unkel.

Boeing say that the the new 737-800 uses the equivalent of 3 litres of fuel for every 100 km per passenger.

That means if the thing is full, I am doing the equivalent of 3 l/100km(weren't the 3 litre Lupo/A2 so called because it did 3 l/100 km, which was 94.5 mpg?)

If you have a 5 seater car and it is full, then the car needs to be averaging 15 l/100 km to get the same per passenger fuel equivalent. Anything under 15 l/100 km is more efficient than air travel(and thats on the most modern aircraft, which boeing claim is 15% better than its predecessor the 737-700.

Or if you have a 7 seater MPV, you need 21 l/100 km.

Could someone tell us what these are in mpg?(IIRC 3 l/100 km = 94.5 mpg, so that would give 18.9 mpg for 15 l/100 km, and 13.5 mpg for 21 l/100 km).

unkel

E92 wrote: »

Boeing say that the the new 737-800 uses the equivalent of 3 litres of fuel for every 100 km per passenger.

That's about right. Might be even a bit better than that, or perhaps it is taking into account the average occupancy rating as provided by their customers. Many planes are (nearly) full these days.

Having said that, about a quarter of a million Irish people are expected to hit New York for the latest Prada bags and what not this Christmas. They will use up about a hundred million litres of no / low duty aviation fuel. That's about the same as a hundred thousand cars use in fuel in this country for the whole year :eek:

Alun

E92 wrote: »

But isn't the whole point of having no speed limits that if you don't want to make use of you car's performance you don't have to.

<snip>

If you don't like going fast then don't go fast, it's really that simple.

Exactly the point I was trying to make, when we got sidelined into daft comparisons with US gun law.

As I said in my 'award winning' (thanks unkel!) post, driving for extended periods, i.e. hours on end, at the kinds of speeds normally quoted on this forum as 'the norm' on German autobahns (when in fact they're far from it) demands a huge amount of concentration, and when the initial thrill of actually being allowed to do it wears off, as it will, a lot of people generally just don't bother and cruise along at more modest speeds (but generally, on average, much higher than over here). And as E92 says, when there are speed limits they generally stick to them.

All in all, I find it all makes for a generally more relaxed driving experience, and look forward to driving in Germany.

E92

2007 could well indeed be the end of an era, I was talking to some Germans tonight who are here on erasmus, and one of them told me he was definately flying home at Christmas to go on the Autobahn, because when he goes back to Germany next Summer he might never have the chance to flat out again. Reassuringly, he and some other Germans told me that it is still a vote loser with the public to want a blanket limit, so there is hope yet(though it appears the quote in the Irish Times below begs to differ). Another one said that Germans like their cars and not politicians, who want a speed limit.

In today's Motors supplement of the Paper of Record aka The Irish Times, the front page has the following:

Speed Limit for Germany:

Germany's speed limit-free motorways may fall victim to fears of global warming after the Social Democrats unexpectedly voted in favour of introducing a top speed of 130 km/h. Studies showing Germany's CO2 output from cars could be cut sharply by a speed limit helped convince a majority of SPD delegates to ignore their leaders at a party congress.

Opinion polls show about 60% of Germans are in favour of a speed limit.

Seth Brundle

Its not going to happen for another while yet...
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071107/FREE/71107003/1530/FREE
http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=70893

E92

On the second link you posted kbcannon, I notice that even her conservative party want speed limits now too. I always thought the CDU were opposed to speed limits(apart from their Enviornment spokesman/Minister, not sure what he is, but he was always in favour of blanket limits).

Another thing I forgot to mention is that even if the Germans do want blanket limits, I'm reliably informed that the ADAC and the German car makers are quite influental on law makers when it comes to speed limits(they are of course fighting for no more speed limits than there already are), so my own opinion is that Germany is safe until the election in 2009(unless something happens in between), especially as the Chancellor has ruled it out so many times, and who knows after that?