Rememberance Poppy

hopalong85

latenia wrote: »

As I was saying in my earlier posts-I'm not against it for any reasons connected with Ireland's history with Britain. It's because it is romanticizing and legitimizing the war.
Just look at the language you use when talking about the war-it's like a cross between a Siegfried Sassoon poem and a Victor annual from the 70's.
This is not remembrance in the way you think it is-it's nostalgia. You wear the poppy and go to these services because it makes YOU feel good.

Yeah, i think that sums up Arthur's position pretty accurately.

Terry

ArthurF wrote:

I wish those on the 'Anti-No' side would just think about the scene for one moment!

The "yes" side?

The Chessplayer

hopalong85 wrote: »

Yeah, i think that sums up Arthur's position pretty accurately.

100% agree. No matter what you post, ArthurF will just respond with a somewhat moronic "35 thousand Irishmen" mantra.

My opinion is that the Irish poppy-brigade just love stirring it up. If they lived in Britain, they would probably be banging on about how Irish they are the whole time, and how the UK is an injust union - they just want to be different.

Latchy

Ruen wrote: »

Irelands 'National Day of Commemoration' is on July 11th so no need to worry about any other country's traditions. Our day of commemoration remembers all Irish men and women who have died at war(INCLUDING WW1) or on UN service, so if you happen to be Irish you might be more interested in that unless you have some special likeness for British ceremonies.

On that point it should be known that The IUNVA in the uk (irish united nations veterans asociation ) the ONE (organisation of national ex-servicemen/women ) and the IDV (irish defence forces veterans ) march in the poppy day parade in Lindon and various parts of the uk alongside various regiments of the british army such as the Royal Enniskillings Fusiliers and have done so for many years.

Wearing the poppy is an indviduals choice .

LordSutch

Its no good attacking little old me! all I am doing is trying to get it into your thick heads that I wear the Poppy for the Irish men who died in the Great War & WWII, and if emotive and descriptive language helps to get the message across to the nay-sayers ~ then so be it.

(maybe lateina should have another look at Post #162)

The Chessplayer

ArthurF wrote: »

Its no good attacking little old me! all I am doing is trying to get it into your thick heads that I wear the Poppy for the Irish men who died in the Great War & WWII, and if emotive and descriptive language helps to get the message across to the nay-sayers ~ then so be it.

(maybe lateina should have another look at Post #162)

Let us know more about your political ideology that drives you to make such outlandish statements.

Are you a British-Irishman? Are you a Unionist?

LordSutch

What outlandish statements do you speak of?

Acid_Violet

gurramok wrote: »

Big different Violet, poppy is an institution of the British military establishment. Many countries watch British TV programs as an aspect of British entertainment(because some are blooming good), see the difference now?

Pretty much what I was thinking. Big difference between watching tv made by a certain country and wearing a symbol that endorses their military!

jahalpin

Did the poll not orignally say "Remeberance Lilly" rather than poppy?

Does anyone know where they are selling the poppies around Dublin as I want to get one today

Rovi

jahalpin wrote: »

Did the poll not orignally say "Remeberance Lilly" rather than poppy?

Indeed it did.
It's now utterly invalid and should be deleted from the thread, in my opinion.

barclay2

Its worth remembering that all political parties in the republic, and the vast majority of the citizens here, and the constitution, aspire to Irish Unity. And they aspire to achieving it by consent - in other words, by making the concept of a united and independent Irish state attractive enough to citizens on both sides of the border for them to vote in favour of it.

A sizeable minority on the island - the Unionist majority in the North - either regard themselves as British or at least value the history of British identity on the island. That identity and history includes, among a lot of other things, the Irish contribution to the British military.

To argue that to be Irish means one cannot or should not remember that contribution with pride, and express that pride by wearing the poppy, only further alienates Unionists in the North. Such alienation makes it even less likely that any Unionists/Northern Protestants will ever see a United Ireland as an attractive concept and thereby makes the possibility of Irish Unity even more remote.

I wont wear a poppy, but that just because i never wear any kind of symbols like that e.g. poppies, lillies, shamrock etc. But i dont see any problem with people in Ireland wearing one, and i think that chastising people who do will only entrench the divisions that exist on the island.

A Dub in Glasgo

I think the notion that you can only remember the soldiers (who were sent to their slaughter by the top brass) by wearing a red poppy is what gets on my wick. This time of year is extremely militaristic.

We should remember the madness of war

gyppo

ArthurF wrote: »

Its no good attacking little old me! all I am doing is trying to get it into your thick heads that I wear the Poppy for the Irish men who died in the Great War & WWII, and if emotive and descriptive language helps to get the message across to the nay-sayers ~ then so be it.

Heres the crunch though - when you say you wear the poppy for the Irish men who died in the world wars, the symbolism (a british one) pertains to all the allied forces who died in these wars, and other campaigns. As we all know, a very sizable proportion of these were british.

Given the atrocities committed by british forces during the occupation of this country, are you really suprised that wearing such symbolism is going to be emotive and met with distaste??

I have no problem with people commemerating those Irishmen who died for a greater cause - indeed I'm agreeable to it. But the poppy is as british as yorkshire pudding, Boxing day, etc.etc., and has no place in Irish tradition.
Why not remember dead Irishmen with an Irish symbol, rather than apeing the flag waving antics of the monarchy?

barclay2

gyppo wrote: »

Why not remember dead Irishmen with an Irish symbol, rather than apeing the flag waving antics of the monarchy?

Not a bad idea, and that way more people would commemorate them i imagine

LordSutch

gyppo wrote: »

Heres the crunch though - when you say you wear the poppy for the Irish men who died in the world wars, the symbolism (a british one) pertains to all the allied forces who died in these wars, and other campaigns. As we all know, a very sizable proportion of these were british.

Given the atrocities committed by british forces during the occupation of this country, are you really suprised that wearing such symbolism is going to be emotive and met with distaste??

I have no problem with people commemerating those Irishmen who died for a greater cause - indeed I'm agreeable to it. But the poppy is as british as yorkshire pudding, Boxing day, etc.etc., and has no place in Irish tradition.
Why not remember dead Irishmen with an Irish symbol, rather than apeing the flag waving antics of the monarchy?

And whats wrong with remembering the Allied dead on the 11th/Nov?

I might also add that there were more Poppies sold on the streets of Dublin in the 1920's than in the whole of Northern Ireland in that decade!

I can see no reason whatsoever not to remember my Irish Grandad who fought & died in WWI.

And as regards an Irish symbol for Remberance Day, its now 90 years since the Great War and still no sign of a specifically 'Irish' symbol to wear on the 11th, but why wear a different one anyway? when you consider that those 35 thousand Irish men who perished were part of the British-Allied force who thankfully stopped the Germans in Two World Wars ~ or would you rather the enemy had won?

gyppo

ArthurF wrote: »

And whats wrong with remembering the Allied dead on the 11th/Nov?

Firstly, your previous post categorically stated:

ArthurF wrote: »

all I am doing is trying to get it into your thick heads that I wear the Poppy for the Irishmen who died in the Great War & WWII

Thats what I answered above. I would personally have no interest in remembering the dead of other nations.

ArthurF wrote: »

I might also add that there were more Poppies sold on the streets of Dublin in the 1920's than in the whole of Northern Ireland in that decade!

And have you any stats for today? I'd imagine this trend is well reversed - maybe as an Irish nation we no longer feel the need to participate in british pagentry.

ArthurF wrote: »

I can see no reason whatsoever not to remember my Irish Grandad who fought & died in WWI.

I totally agree with you. However, I can see no reason to remember him (and I mean no disrespect to his memory ) with a symbol which is from a country foreign to this one.

ArthurF wrote: »

And as regards an Irish symbol for Remberance Day, its now 90 years since the Great War and still no sign of a specifically 'Irish' symbol to wear on the 11th, but why wear a different one anyway? when you consider that those 35 thousand Irish men who perished were part of the British-Allied force who thankfully stopped the Germans in Two World Wars ~ or would you rather the enemy had won?

Well, if there is still no sign of a specifically 'Irish' one, whose fault is that?
Why wear a different one? - why not then so, I suppose. If people feel the need to be sheep, then so be it.
Also, try not to labour the point on who won the wars - I thought this arguement was the method in which Irish people were remembered - please refer to your previous posts to refresh your memory.

LordSutch

If your mind is made-up that the Poppy is not an appropriate symbol for those Irish who died in the Poppy fields of Flanders then what can I say? nothing more really.

johnnyskeleton

I don't wear a poppy but I do observe a minute's silence. There isn't really so much an Irish Nationalist objection to it, so much as there is a British/Anglo-Irish desire to wear them that puts people off. I don't have any objection to a Union Jack, but I wouldn't wear one, if you know what I mean. There's also the thing that they are very uncommon in Ireland so you'll get funny looks (kinda like wearing shamrocks on 17th march in China).

I also find them very ostentateous and seeing UK celebrities and television personalities wearing them seems really facetous and insincere - kinda like a woman reading the sports news.

gurramok

ArthurF wrote: »

If your mind is made-up that the Poppy is not an appropriate symbol for those Irish who died in the Poppy fields of Flanders then what can I say? nothing more really.

Question for ya:)

Will you be commemorating our heroes who fought in the Irish War Of Independence for your freedom with such fervour as those men also fought for Ireland's freedom under Redmonds Home Rule promise by serving in WW1?

Note:..my grandad participated in both wars so it would affect my family bloodline if you cherished our independence heroes also!:D

deman

gurramok wrote: »

How do you know Hitler wanted to send the Irish to the death camps, first i heard of it. In case you'd forgotten, we were neutral in WWII and that was respected by the big powers back then.

Maybe you should dig out your history books again, that's if you ever did history in school in the first place. I'll bet Poland would have tried to be neutral if they were given the chance, nevermind Denmark or Norway. Finland were officially neutral yet the Nazis were able to take advantage of the fact that Finland were at war with Russia and stormed into Finnish lapland and when they realised they couldn't beat the Russians in the cold artic winter weather, decided to turn on the Finns instead. Respect??? Go and read a book and educate yourself before posting your BS again.

KlondikePaddy

gurramok wrote: »

Question for ya:)

Will you be commemorating our heroes who fought in the Irish War Of Independence for your freedom with such fervour as those men also fought for Ireland's freedom under Redmonds Home Rule promise by serving in WW1?

Note:..my grandad participated in both wars so it would affect my family bloodline if you cherished our independence heroes also!:D[/QUOTE

Good question!:)

Hagar

Well, how do you do young Willie McBride?
Do you mind if I sit hear down by your graveside,
And rest for a while ‘neath the warm summer sun.
I’ve been working all day and I’m nearly done.
I can see by your gravestone you were only nineteen
When you joined the great fallen in nineteen sixteen.
Well I hope you died quick, and I hope you died clean,
Oh Willie McBride, was it slow and obscene?

Chorus:
Did they beat the drum slowly, did they play the fife lowly,
did they sound the death march, as they lowered you down?
Did the bands play the last post and chorus?
Did the pipes play the flowers of the forest?

And did you leave a wife or sweetheart behind
In some faithful heart is your memory enshrined,
Although you died back in nineteen sixteen
In some faithful heart are you forever nineteen?
Or are you a stranger without even a name
Enclosed now forever behind a glass frame
In an old photograph torn, battered and stained
And faded to yellow in a brown leather frame.

Chorus:

Now see how the sun shines o’er the green field of France
There’s a warm summer breeze makes the red poppies dance,
And see how the sun shines from under the clouds
There’s no gas or barbed wire, there’s no guns firing now.
But here in this graveyard it’s still no-man’s land
The countless white crosses in mute witness stand
To man’s blind difference to his fellow man
To a whole generation who were butchered and damned.

Chorus:

Now young Willie McBride, I can’t help wonder why
Do all those who lie here know why did they die.
And did they believe when they answered the call
Did they really believe that this war would end wars.
Well the sorrow, the suffering, the glory the pain,
The killing, the dying they were all done in vain
For young Willie McBride it all happened again
And again and again and again and again.

Chorus:








The hour has passed let them rest in peace.

Terry

Not here it hasn't, Frenchy.

Edit: Damn computer clock.
Carry on.

The Chessplayer

Hagar wrote: »

Well, how do you do young Willie McBride?
Do you mind if I sit hear down by your graveside,
And rest for a while ‘neath the warm summer sun.
I’ve been working all day and I’m nearly done.
I can see by your gravestone you were only nineteen
When you joined the great fallen in nineteen sixteen.
Well I hope you died quick, and I hope you died clean,
Oh Willie McBride, was it slow and obscene?

Chorus:
Did they beat the drum slowly, did they play the fife lowly,
did they sound the death march, as they lowered you down?
Did the bands play the last post and chorus?
Did the pipes play the flowers of the forest?

And did you leave a wife or sweetheart behind
In some faithful heart is your memory enshrined,
Although you died back in nineteen sixteen
In some faithful heart are you forever nineteen?
Or are you a stranger without even a name
Enclosed now forever behind a glass frame
In an old photograph torn, battered and stained
And faded to yellow in a brown leather frame.

Chorus:

Now see how the sun shines o’er the green field of France
There’s a warm summer breeze makes the red poppies dance,
And see how the sun shines from under the clouds
There’s no gas or barbed wire, there’s no guns firing now.
But here in this graveyard it’s still no-man’s land
The countless white crosses in mute witness stand
To man’s blind difference to his fellow man
To a whole generation who were butchered and damned.

Chorus:

Now young Willie McBride, I can’t help wonder why
Do all those who lie here know why did they die.
And did they believe when they answered the call
Did they really believe that this war would end wars.
Well the sorrow, the suffering, the glory the pain,
The killing, the dying they were all done in vain
For young Willie McBride it all happened again
And again and again and again and again.

Chorus:








The hour has passed let them rest in peace.

I hate this song. Morons sing it when they are on holiday, drunk, because they think it's a rebel song.

The Chessplayer

barclay2 wrote: »

Its worth remembering that all political parties in the republic, and the vast majority of the citizens here, and the constitution, aspire to Irish Unity. And they aspire to achieving it by consent - in other words, by making the concept of a united and independent Irish state attractive enough to citizens on both sides of the border for them to vote in favour of it.

A sizeable minority on the island - the Unionist majority in the North - either regard themselves as British or at least value the history of British identity on the island. That identity and history includes, among a lot of other things, the Irish contribution to the British military.

To argue that to be Irish means one cannot or should not remember that contribution with pride, and express that pride by wearing the poppy, only further alienates Unionists in the North. Such alienation makes it even less likely that any Unionists/Northern Protestants will ever see a United Ireland as an attractive concept and thereby makes the possibility of Irish Unity even more remote.

I wont wear a poppy, but that just because i never wear any kind of symbols like that e.g. poppies, lillies, shamrock etc. But i dont see any problem with people in Ireland wearing one, and i think that chastising people who do will only entrench the divisions that exist on the island.

While I would like to see a United Ireland, I wouldn't want to make too many concessions to the northern unionists, if any at all - they are a snivelling snivelling bunch. If a united Ireland came about, the unionists would be pushing for all sorts of ways to dilute Irish culture. As a lobby group they would have huge power. The question of a united Ireland is the supreme pancake.

Also, I would like to see it made compulsory that all unionists MUST wear the poppy, so as the rest of us know who they are. This way they couldn't skulk in the corner like common thieves.

deman

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Also, I would like to see it made compulsory that all unionists MUST wear the poppy, so as the rest of us know who they are. This way they couldn't skulk in the corner like common thieves.

You sound extremely paranoid with that stupid statement. You've written a lot of rubbish of this thread so far but that really takes the biscuit. And I might be right in saying "What a load of old cobblers".

Hagar

The Chessplayer wrote: »

I hate this song. Morons sing it when they are on holiday, drunk, because they think it's a rebel song.

But it's not is it? How do you know why a person sings a song? Psychic maybe?

Mr. Presentable

Anyone know when "poppy day" became a fortnight?

Ponster

The Chessplayer wrote: »

I hate this song. Morons sing it when they are on holiday, drunk, because they think it's a rebel song.

They usually think that it's an Irish rebel song too !

The Chessplayer

Hagar wrote: »

But it's not is it? How do you know why a person sings a song? Psychic maybe?

Well I've often been roaring drunk and sang rebel songs and Irish ballads - who hasn't - but it irks me to hear The Green Fields of France. Imbeciles usually sing it and emphasise the bit where it mentions 1916...even though the song is about WW1 and nothing to do with the Irish struggle whatsoever (so mixed up is their weak grasp of history).

"Down with that sort of thing" says the chessplayer.

Latchy

It ' (the green fields of france ) ' was also written by a scotsman ...

Hagar

Indeed it was, Eric Bogle afair.

KlondikePaddy

The Chessplayer wrote: »

I hate this song. Morons sing it when they are on holiday, drunk, because they think it's a rebel song.

Did you hear the Chieftains/Finbarr Furey version-vomit bag please!:(

Lirange

Blisterman wrote: »

Were it not for the british army in world war 2, we'd all be speaking german now, neutrality or not.

Well German is not the most flowery language in the world. But Dublinstadt mightn't be so bad. Less scum and skangers. We'd have an autobahn! Damn better service and efficiency about the place.

Curse the Brits and the allies!!! :mad:

Latchy

Originally Posted by Blisterman
Were it not for the british army in world war 2, we'd all be speaking german now, neutrality or not.

If it were not for the Americans entering the war ,the british would have being speaking german a lot sooner .

Hagar

Sure haven't they got a German Royal Family?

Esel

ArthurF wrote: »

Its no good attacking little old me! all I am doing is trying to get it into your thick heads that I wear the Poppy for the Irish men who died in the Great War & WWII, and if emotive and descriptive language helps to get the message across to the nay-sayers ~ then so be it.

(maybe lateina should have another look at Post #162)

I strongly resent this supercilious, superior and abusive comment.

jahalpin

A lot of people on this forum seem to have problems seperating religion from loyalty and respect.

The poppy is a symbol of people's respect for people who gave their lives in defence of our way of life, if it wasn't for these brave people the world would be a very different place, and not in a good way. For a start we wouldn't have a democracy and we would be under the direct control of the German Kaiser.

I was at a Royal British Legion fundraiser in Belfast last year and the people there were genuinely passionate about making the lives of those injured and their families better and more dignified.

gyppo

jahalpin wrote: »

For a start we wouldn't have a democracy and we would be under the direct control of the German Kaiser.

Wow! you don't say. We were under direct control for a lot longer than 90 odd years by another foreign power, who didnt give two fvcks when millions of people starved to death in this country. I don't know if the German Kaiser could have been much worse.

Blowfish

jahalpin wrote: »

The poppy is a symbol of people's respect for people who gave their lives in defence of our way of life, if it wasn't for these brave people the world would be a very different place, and not in a good way. For a start we wouldn't have a democracy and we would be under the direct control of the German Kaiser.

Says who exactly? The Russians were the ones who annihilated most of the Axis armies.

Anyway, I didn't wear a poppy, but for a different reason to most of the people here. I refuse to wear something to commemorate soldiers, no matter what patch of turf they were fighting over.

Latchy

Blowfish wrote: »

Anyway, I didn't wear a poppy, but for a different reason to most of the people here. I refuse to wear something to commemorate soldiers, no matter what patch of turf they were fighting over.

That imo , is probably the best reason for not wearing a poppy

Lirange

latchyco wrote: »

If it were not for the Americans entering the war ,the british would have being speaking german a lot sooner .

If you've ever read the original script of Beowulf (as I was forced to do) you'd realise that they were already speaking German. Has it twigged yet they we're typing in German right now?! :eek:

Fratton Fred

nipplenuts wrote: »

Anyone know when "poppy day" became a fortnight?

it's always been a poppy fortnight, at least they go on sale two weeks before the second Sunday in November.

A fortnight that ended yesterday, so we can park this thread and have exactly the same discussion again next year and the year after and the year after.....

Latchy

Quote =Lirange;54401152]If you've ever read the original script of Beowulf (as I was forced to do) you'd realise that they were already speaking German. Has it twigged yet they we're typing in German right now?! :eek:

cant find beowulfs script ..typing in german ??? only connection i know between english and german is the royal family .:eek:

Fratton Fred

Stoner wrote: »

I visited Glasnevin graveyard recently and went on a tour, there is a memorial for the Irish men and women who died during WW2, it is the responsibility of the British War Memorial Group to maintain this monument, but they ignore it, as a result it has been taken under the wing of the graveyard and thankfully it is being cleaned up at the moment.

I have spoken to the CWGC about this and they certainly do not ignore it. They work very closely with the OPW and only the other week the site was visited by the the Area manager and Dorector who complained about the proximity of works to the memorials. If the OPW highight any problems, the CWGC sort these out immediately and there are bi-annual visits by craftsmen based in NI who clean up the memorials themselves.

They accept that the area is not as good as it should be, but due to the massive amount of work being carried out in the cemetry at the moment, their hands are tied, however, when these are finished (Which may be some time) then their contractor will set about tidying up the area.

I just wanted to put the record straight.

LordSutch

The Chessplayer wrote: »

While I would like to see a United Ireland, I wouldn't want to make too many concessions to the northern unionists, if any at all - they are a snivelling snivelling bunch. If a united Ireland came about, the unionists would be pushing for all sorts of ways to dilute Irish culture. As a lobby group they would have huge power. The question of a united Ireland is the supreme pancake.

Also, I would like to see it made compulsory that all unionists MUST wear the poppy, so as the rest of us know who they are. This way they couldn't skulk in the corner like common thieves.

Thanks for that chessplayer & needless to say as an Irish Unionist myself I shall take that on the jaw, you would have had no problem whsatsoever recognising me yesterday walking up Grafton Street on the way to St Patricks Cathedral ...............

Now how about you replying to my previous Post#258

Stoner

Fratton Fred wrote: »

They accept that the area is not as good as it should be, but due to the massive amount of work being carried out in the cemetry at the moment, their hands are tied, however, when these are finished (Which may be some time) then their contractor will set about tidying up the area.

I just wanted to put the record straight.

Sorry Fratton Fred, I dont understand this, the revamp of the memorial is being carried out at the moment by the general graveyard contractors, I saw it myself. So when they have all the work done the CWGC will come out and approve it?? tidy up?

Pop down there next sunday if you can, go on a tour and see for yourself, it is currently being worked on. I dont know what value has been placed on tidying up, but the stonework etc will be cleaned by Glasnevin, they have started.

I share your views on keeping the record straight BTW .

Fratton Fred

Stoner wrote: »

Sorry Fratton Fred, I dont understand this, the revamp of the memorial is being carried out at the moment by the general graveyard contractors, I saw it myself. So when they have all the work done the CWGC will come out and approve it?? tidy up?

Pop down there next sunday if you can, go on a tour and see for yourself, it is currently being worked on. I dont know what value has been placed on tidying up, but the stonework etc will be cleaned by Glasnevin, they have started.

I share your views on keeping the record straight BTW .

I will take a look, I know the CWGC very well and they are meticulous in looking after all ther memorials. If you ever visit a cemetry then you will see what lengths they go to to make sure they are kept up to standard.

You obviously saw what you saw and if that is different to what the CWGC think is going on then I will make it my mission to put them right.

The Chessplayer

ArthurF wrote: »

Thanks for that chessplayer & needless to say as an Irish Unionist myself I shall take that on the jaw, you would have had no problem whsatsoever recognising me yesterday walking up Grafton Street on the way to St Patricks Cathedral ...............

Now how about you replying to my previous Post#258

I noted that up the north Martin McGuinness was wearning a poppy. He too is an Irish unionist, for the union between north and south.

Was out about about in the city yesterday and didn't see a single poppy-head. So unless they were scurrying down back alleys like sewer rats, I certainly didn't see any. Mind you, I wasn't on Patrick Street - I completely forgot about this whole poppy debacle.

Although, the more I argue against the poppy, the more I think to myself that it would be better to just ignore it. Can't see it ever becoming a widespread practice.

ArthurF - I meant outlandish in that many of your comments are just "trolling" as they call it here.

Terry

The Chessplayer wrote: »

I noted that up the north Martin McGuinness was wearning a poppy. He too is an Irish unionist, for the union between north and south.

Was out about about in the city yesterday and didn't see a single poppy-head. So unless they were scurrying down back alleys like sewer rats, I certainly didn't see any. Mind you, I wasn't on Patrick Street - I completely forgot about this whole poppy debacle.

Although, the more I argue against the poppy, the more I think to myself that it would be better to just ignore it. Can't see it ever becoming a widespread practice.

ArthurF - I meant outlandish in that many of your comments are just "trolling" as they call it here.

You are trolling yourself.
Stop it now.
Thanks.