Controversial wrestling opinions

Witcher

i love the way idiots think they know more about it than people who actually watch it[/QUOTE]

ohh here we go with the personal insults!!

slanging match!

calling someone an idiot only shows that you are covering up your inability to have a intelligent debate about an issue!

i never said i knew more than any of you!

i said it was fake thats my opinion and im entitled to it!

:cool::cool::cool:

gimmick

For the love of God, why react. This happens every now and then, someone reacts, the initial poster gets on his high horse, everyone reports him for being a moron, then he disappears. if he is just ignored straight off, his wind up doesnt work, and he goes away straight off.

krudler

blay1 wrote: »

i love the way idiots think they know more about it than people who actually watch it

ohh here we go with the personal insults!!

slanging match!

calling someone an idiot only shows that you are covering up your inability to have a intelligent debate about an issue!

i never said i knew more than any of you!

i said it was fake thats my opinion and im entitled to it!

:cool::cool::cool:[/QUOTE]

but it isnt fake, so you're wrong, having an opinion on something you dont know anything about is ridiculous

Witcher

gimmick,

i wasnt winding any of you i was placing my opinion in the open, if you want to shoot it down go ahead.

krudler

blay1 wrote: »

gimmick,

i wasnt winding any of you i was placing my opinion in the open, if you want to shoot it down go ahead.

no you're just dangling flamebait for others to get into an argument, and its one you cant win so why bother

Vince135792003

blay1 wrote: »

gimmick,

i wasnt winding any of you i was placing my opinion in the open, if you want to shoot it down go ahead.

Cool. Could you use capital letters though? I'm a big fan of them.

krudler

Vince135792003 wrote: »

Cool. Could you use capital letters though? I'm a big fan of them.

Lol you really have it in for those who dont always use capitals don't you?

Vince135792003

krudler wrote: »

Lol you really have it in for those who dont always use capitals don't you?

It's true. It genuinely annoys me in an irrational angry old man kind of way! In my defense, it's not that hard to press the capital locks key.

Minto

blay1 wrote: »

i wasnt winding any of you i was placing my opinion in the open, if you want to shoot it down go ahead.

You want to place an opinion? Do ya? This is a forum about wrestling discussion, not for opinions on weather it is real or fake. FFS, this is 2007, we all know it is fake!

We don't go onto forums like airsoft and paintball and complain about it or say its fake and they should all go off to war and fight with real guns. Do we?

So contribute something worthwhile or fúck off to some other forum?

Minto

Vince135792003 wrote: »

Could you use capital letters though? I'm a big fan of them.

The Teacher has spoken!

Vince, I think I just came up with a gimmick for ya

EDIT: Whoops, WWE beat me to it! DAMN!

Vince135792003

Minto wrote: »

The Teacher has spoken!

Trust me, it's not that at all! I've never been that good at English.

Maybe its because for like 15 years people who don't like wrestling that I know would call people who liked it stupid or whatever. And if everyone came on here and just never used basic things like a capital letter, we'd be given fuel to that stereotype.

Or maybe I'm just a idiot.

Double C

I wish to add Lance Storm to the list of great technical wrestlers. And cement Danielson's place in there too!

Mr.Nice Guy

flahavaj wrote: »

Your comment on ROH actually pretty much sums up my opinion of Angle.

Do you mean you think Angle lacks knowledge of wrestling psychology?

flahavaj wrote:

As for superior technical wrestlers, just off the top of my head: (bear in mind I'm not saying they are a better all round package or achieved more in their careers but as in ring technicians they are in my opinion far superior)

Benoit
Regal
Malenko
Flair
Dory Funk
Danielson
Mil Mascaras
Antoni Inoki
Fit Finlay
Eddie Guerrero
Kurt Hennig
Steamboat
Toishiaki Kawada
Giant Baba
The Destroyer

Hell, someone like Val Venis is probably a better mat based chain wrestler than Angle and I'm not joking.

Val Venis? Come on, man! Out of the other names you mention I'd only maybe consider Benoit above him and would add Bret Hart too.

flahavaj wrote:

In return I'd like you to name some of the technical mat based classics he's had that don't involve silly bumps and highspots and in which he actually manages to consistently sell a body part properly.(and I've named RR03 vs Benoit already.) Surely the greatest technical wrestler ever will have countless examples. Bear in mind I'm not bashing Angles work as such, just bursting the myth that he's some kind of master in-ring technician.

Being a good technical wrestler is not solely about selling body parts though. If you want me to name technical mat classics he's had that didn't involve silly bumps and highspots, off the top of my head I would name the following...

Angle vs Lesnar at WM19
Angle vs Lesnar at Summerslam '03
Angle vs Guerrero at WM20
Angle vs Undertaker at No Way Out '06
Angle vs Benoit at WM17
Angle vs Benoit (Ultimate Submission @ Backlash 2001)
Angle vs Mysterio at Summerslam 2002

I think the fact that Angle has the respect of his peers in the wrestling business (including Bret Hart which I'd consider high praise) and the fact he can induce pure emotion from the fans through his wrestling ability alone proves him to be one of the finest technical wrestlers of all time.

And as for Danielson being above Angle, that's worse than saying Val Venis!

Fozzy

blay1 banned for trolling

Fozzy

I don't consider Angle to be one of the best technical wrestlers ever. I'm obviously not saying that he's crap because he's had some amazing matches and he's a great wrestler, but technically I do feel he's lacking

My main point for arguing that would be that when someone wrestles Kurt Angle, they're wrestling Angle's match. If they're not able to play to Angle's strengths then the match suffers. Guys who have been able to play to his strengths are guys like Austin, Eddie and Mysterio. Kurt will never wrestle to the strengths of his opponent, which is something I think a top technical wrestler should be doing

So I'd put guys like Flair, Kawada, Guerrero, Danielson, Bret, etc. ahead of Angle technically, because those guys were better able to make their opponent look good while playing to both their strengths


Here's one for you, expanding on my point above: Shawn Michaels has been a formulaic and repetitive wrestler in 2007. While the formula that he uses often produces really good matches, he is an unimaginative wrestler who works around every opponent in the exact same way

Gillie

Fozzy wrote: »

Here's one for you, expanding on my point above: Shawn Michaels has been a formulaic and repetitive wrestler in 2007. While the formula that he uses often produces really good matches, he is an unimaginative wrestler who works around every opponent in the exact same way

Yes he does but he's still the best at doing it imo.
I would pay money to watch him vs Edge, Orton, Jeff Hardy every time.

There's just something (better?) about watching him instead of Cena or the Rock who are the same.

Each to their own I guess!

fatal

Fozzy wrote: »

I don't consider Angle to be one of the best technical wrestlers ever. I'm obviously not saying that he's crap because he's had some amazing matches and he's a great wrestler, but technically I do feel he's lacking

My main point for arguing that would be that when someone wrestles Kurt Angle, they're wrestling Angle's match. If they're not able to play to Angle's strengths then the match suffers. Guys who have been able to play to his strengths are guys like Austin, Eddie and Mysterio. Kurt will never wrestle to the strengths of his opponent, which is something I think a top technical wrestler should be doing

So I'd put guys like Flair, Kawada, Guerrero, Danielson, Bret, etc. ahead of Angle technically, because those guys were better able to make their opponent look good while playing to both their strengths


Here's one for you, expanding on my point above: Shawn Michaels has been a formulaic and repetitive wrestler in 2007. While the formula that he uses often produces really good matches, he is an unimaginative wrestler who works around every opponent in the exact same way

I would attribute alot of that to being put up against opponents who have a limited wrestling capacity in the first place.We all know that over the last number of years WWE have gone for look over talent and because of this guys like shawn have had to stick with the same "formula" with such guys so as to 1.avoid serious injury with guys that should have never been in a wrestling ring and 2. to put on a half decent show when put up against one of these body over talent guys.If he has used the same formula it has been because he has been resorted to using it and because it works

Mr.Nice Guy

Fozzy wrote: »

I don't consider Angle to be one of the best technical wrestlers ever. I'm obviously not saying that he's crap because he's had some amazing matches and he's a great wrestler, but technically I do feel he's lacking

My main point for arguing that would be that when someone wrestles Kurt Angle, they're wrestling Angle's match. If they're not able to play to Angle's strengths then the match suffers. Guys who have been able to play to his strengths are guys like Austin, Eddie and Mysterio. Kurt will never wrestle to the strengths of his opponent, which is something I think a top technical wrestler should be doing

So I'd put guys like Flair, Kawada, Guerrero, Danielson, Bret, etc. ahead of Angle technically, because those guys were better able to make their opponent look good while playing to both their strengths.

I don't understand what you mean. It sounds to me like you're holding Angle's phenomenal amateur background against him when you say that others had to play to his strengths. Angle always went 100 m/p/h in the ring because he could and I would argue that by doing so he brought out the best in his opponents. I recall Benoit making this point and calling him the Michael Jordan of wrestling because he made you raise your game.

What matches suffered due to Kurt "never wrestling to the strengths of his opponent"?

I must say I find it quite extraordinary that the only Olympic champion in pro wrestling history is having his technical ability questioned!

Fozzy wrote:

Here's one for you, expanding on my point above: Shawn Michaels has been a formulaic and repetitive wrestler in 2007. While the formula that he uses often produces really good matches, he is an unimaginative wrestler who works around every opponent in the exact same way

What?!

Michaels in only his last match with Orton had to work a completely different style to make up for the fact that his knees weren't 100 per cent. He worked a patient, technical match and it was terrific up until the BS finish. There are a lot of ways to describe Shawn Michaels but "formulaic and repetitive" is not one of them!

gimmick

But is it not arguable that most wrestlers matches are quite formulaic, and that the very nature of the sport it has to be? Yes, HBKs matches can be very samey, likewise are Angles (at least they were in WWE, dont watch enough TNA to comment) with his "playing possum" as someone goes up the ropes, only for him to come back to life and belly to belly suplex them. Are Cenas not samey with the inane and banal 5 knuckle shuffle and then whatever he does next?

Now, that is not a dig at Angle or HBK or anyone else, as I have enjoyed their matches over the years, its just how it is. Now maybe the argument could be how versatile some guys are? Can these fellas adapt to anothers style for the betterment of the match, or does it always have to their own formulas?

fatal

gimmick wrote: »

But is it not arguable that most wrestlers matches are quite formulaic, and that the very nature of the sport it has to be? Yes, HBKs matches can be very samey, likewise are Angles (at least they were in WWE, dont watch enough TNA to comment) with his "playing possum" as someone goes up the ropes, only for him to come back to life and belly to belly suplex them. Are Cenas not samey with the inane and banal 5 knuckle shuffle and then whatever he does next?

Now, that is not a dig at Angle or HBK or anyone else, as I have enjoyed their matches over the years, its just how it is. Now maybe the argument could be how versatile some guys are? Can these fellas adapt to anothers style for the betterment of the match, or does it always have to their own formulas?

I agree that the most entertaining matches are quite formulatic.Fans love wrestler X because he/she successfully does Y.Is that not a formula in itself?

flahavaj

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Do you mean you think Angle lacks knowledge of wrestling psychology?

I would say that yes, in WWE alone, Angle has been one of the more major culprits in recent years for throwing all the basics of wrestling psychology straight out the window.

For one there's the pointless matwork in which he engages for the initial stages of a typical match of his. There's no doubting his ability as an amateur wrestler, his success in that field is a testament to that. However, this myth has evolved recently that having an amateur wrestling background somehow will guarantee that a guy will become a good technical wrestler. It does not! (See Lashley, Bobby and Benjamin, Shelton). As i said his matches typically begin with some mat work, but for the most part its utterly aimless and pointless. Rarely do you see him work a particular body part worked with any consistency whatsoever. When a real pro-wrestling technician like the Hitman takes it to the mat, there's always a definite focus for his offence and the viewer is left in no doubt as to what the matches storyline is going to be i.e. a particular body part will be dissected and the story becomes whether the recipient of this attack can overcome this attack or not.

Secondly, there's the guys appalling selling. One of the major criteria that i would hold for a guy to be a sound in-ring technician would be his ability to sell a body part consistently throughout a match. Angle seems to have no idea how to do this. This is something that someone with a sound PROFESSIONAL wrestling training should be taught right from day one. Sadly it's not really an issue when it comes to amateur training, so therein lies an inherent flaw in the argument of those who quote his gold medals as some kind of measure of his pro-wrestling technical prowess.

flahavaj

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Being a good technical wrestler is not solely about selling body parts though. If you want me to name technical mat classics he's had that didn't involve silly bumps and highspots, off the top of my head I would name the following...

Angle vs Lesnar at WM19
Angle vs Lesnar at Summerslam '03
Angle vs Guerrero at WM20
Angle vs Undertaker at No Way Out '06
Angle vs Benoit at WM17
Angle vs Benoit (Ultimate Submission @ Backlash 2001)
Angle vs Mysterio at Summerslam 2002

OK firstly the Benoit matches I would put down to him being in the ring with one of the greatest in ring technicians of all time, who had the necessary professional (not amateur!) wrestling background and know-how to reel in Angles spottier tendencies.

Likewise Taker, Guerrero and even Lesnar had the know how to reign Angle in, control his desire to do everything at 1000 mph and tell a more logical story in the ring.

As for Mysterio, yes it was a great match ( in fact all of he above are, don't get me worng) its just not what i'd term a mat classic. It was more of a spotty match with numerous spectacular highspots than an exhibition of old-school mat grappling.

flahavaj

And yes, both Val Venis (the most criminally underrated worker in WWE) and danielson definitely have much more of a grasp of how to work a professional wrestling match that doesn't have to rely on going at an unfeasibly fast pace and tells a coherent story than Angle ever could.

flahavaj

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I don't understand what you mean. It sounds to me like you're holding Angle's phenomenal amateur background against him when you say that others had to play to his strengths. Angle always went 100 m/p/h in the ring because he could and I would argue that by doing so he brought out the best in his opponents. I recall Benoit making this point and calling him the Michael Jordan of wrestling because he made you raise your game.

What matches suffered due to Kurt "never wrestling to the strengths of his opponent"?

I must say I find it quite extraordinary that the only Olympic champion in pro wrestling history is having his technical ability questioned!



What?!

Michaels in only his last match with Orton had to work a completely different style to make up for the fact that his knees weren't 100 per cent. He worked a patient, technical match and it was terrific up until the BS finish. There are a lot of ways to describe Shawn Michaels but "formulaic and repetitive" is not one of them!

But that's the whole point about Angle. No one doubts his ability to go 100mph in the ring. The point is that if he had a proper grasp of the rudiments of professional wrestling he would realise that more often than not less is more. Oftentimes a slow patient build up will tell a far better story and lead to a more effective finish than just going into a sprint straight from the bell.

You've actually demonatrated my point beautifully in the second part of your post by qouting Michael's ability to adapt and slow down, yet still delivering an excellent match. When did Angle ever prove to have such adaptability. Never. Surely "the greatest technician ever" would have no bother working a slow patient style, the style that a technician, by definition would be naturally completely proficient in? In fact you can now add HBK to my list of technically superior workers!

Mr.Nice Guy

flahavaj wrote: »

I would say that yes, in WWE alone, Angle has been one of the more major culprits in recent years for throwing all the basics of wrestling psychology straight out the window.

For one there's the pointless matwork in which he engages for the initial stages of a typical match of his. There's no doubting his ability as an amateur wrestler, his success in that field is a testament to that. However, this myth has evolved recently that having an amateur wrestling background somehow will guarantee that a guy will become a good technical wrestler. It does not! (See Lashley, Bobby and Benjamin, Shelton). As i said his matches typically begin with some mat work, but for the most part its utterly aimless and pointless. Rarely do you see him work a particular body part worked with any consistency whatsoever. When a real pro-wrestling technician like the Hitman takes it to the mat, there's always a definite focus for his offence and the viewer is left in no doubt as to what the matches storyline is going to be i.e. a particular body part will be dissected and the story becomes whether the recipient of this attack can overcome this attack or not.

I disagree with so much of this. The matwork that he engages in during the opening stages of a match is part of the overall story that he is going to tell. You don't want to go in all guns blazing as that exemplifies a lack of psychology. He's a mat-based wrestler so he's obviously going to engage in this style.

Secondly I would say that Lashley and Benjamin are both highly skilled technically, along with Brock Lesnar, and that their amateur backgrounds played a big part in this.

I feel you place far too much emphasis on targeting body parts as criteria for being a great technical wrestler. Triple H is renowned for being methodical and targeting certain body parts but would you class him as one of the greatest technical wrestlers ever? I wouldn't. I take your point on the Hitman but I feel Angle is the same. He wouldn't stick on the Ankle lock without targeting the leck beforehand.

flahavaj wrote:

Secondly, there's the guys appalling selling. One of the major criteria that i would hold for a guy to be a sound in-ring technician would be his ability to sell a body part consistently throughout a match. Angle seems to have no idea how to do this. This is something that someone with a sound PROFESSIONAL wrestling training should be taught right from day one. Sadly it's not really an issue when it comes to amateur training, so therein lies an inherent flaw in the argument of those who quote his gold medals as some kind of measure of his pro-wrestling technical prowess.

Appalling selling my arse. Earlier today I watched his match with Taker from No Way Out and he wrestled a perfectly sound technical match. His selling was fine. Most of his matches evoked huge emotion from the crowd and that wouldn't be the case if he couldn't sell.

Of course he's not a Japanese nobody who persistently sells a chop he took in the opening seconds of a match therefore the die-hards crap all over him. Give me a break. I guess Bret Hart, Ric Flair, Chris Benoit and Eddie Guerrero were all wrong to laud him as one of the most technically sound wrestlers ever. What did they know eh?

flahavaj

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Of course he's not a Japanese nobody who persistently sells a chop he took in the opening seconds of a match therefore the die-hards crap all over him. Give me a break. I guess Bret Hart, Ric Flair, Chris Benoit and Eddie Guerrero were all wrong to laud him as one of the most technically sound wrestlers ever. What did they know eh?

Well Flair is also of the opinion that Hart is one of the most overrated workers ever and criticises heavily his repetetive style. But what does he know eh? Give your own opinion and don't rely on those of others. Just because they're workers doesn't mean they can't have opinions that go against what you or I might take as gospel.

Mr.Nice Guy

flahavaj wrote: »

OK firstly the Benoit matches I would put down to him being in the ring with one of the greatest in ring technicians of all time, who had the necessary professional (not amateur!) wrestling background and know-how to reel in Angles spottier tendencies.

Then you'd be wrong because the match required a tremendous effort from both men.

flahavaj wrote:

Likewise Taker, Guerrero and even Lesnar had the know how to reign Angle in, control his desire to do everything at 1000 mph and tell a more logical story in the ring.

Now you're grasping at straws. The Undertaker had to reign in an Olympic gold medallist, wrestling world champion and two time NCAA champion? Will you pull the other one.

flahavaj wrote:

As for Mysterio, yes it was a great match ( in fact all of he above are, don't get me worng) its just not what i'd term a mat classic. It was more of a spotty match with numerous spectacular highspots than an exhibition of old-school mat grappling.

Why is it not a mat classic? It's happening on a mat isn't it? They're simply using wrestling moves to tell a phenomenal story and I'd call that criteria for being sound technically which Angle and Mysterio undoubtedly are.

flahavaj wrote:

And yes, both Val Venis (the most criminally underrated worker in WWE) and danielson definitely have much more of a grasp of how to work a professional wrestling match that doesn't have to rely on going at an unfeasibly fast pace and tells a coherent story than Angle ever could.

What are you smoking cos I'd like some. Val Venis is a solid worker but name me 5 matches he's had which are better than Angle's. If you can I'd be astonished.

Danielson is a glorified, unproven bore who is a poor man's William Regal. He has proven nothing at the top level of this industry and it is an insult to compare him to a technical legend like Kurt Angle. Were you one of those who labelled CM Punk one of the best in the world when he was in ROH?

flahavaj wrote:

But that's the whole point about Angle. No one doubts his ability to go 100mph in the ring. The point is that if he had a proper grasp of the rudiments of professional wrestling he would realise that more often than not less is more. Oftentimes a slow patient build up will tell a far better story and lead to a more effective finish than just going into a sprint straight from the bell.

Angle does know the rudiments of professional wrestling. It's you thats confused. After all earlier you wrote...

flahavaj wrote:

For one there's the pointless matwork in which he engages for the initial stages of a typical match of his.

It's not pointless at all. It's the slow patient build up that you claim you want to see. Angle has told great stories in his career which I doubt could have been bettered by him on the night.

flahavaj wrote:

You've actually demonatrated my point beautifully in the second part of your post by qouting Michael's ability to adapt and slow down, yet still delivering an excellent match. When did Angle ever prove to have such adaptability. Never. Surely "the greatest technician ever" would have no bother working a slow patient style, the style that a technician, by definition would be naturally completely proficient in? In fact you can now add HBK to my list of technically superior workers!

Try watching Wrestlemania 19 when the guy's neck was bothering him so much that he could barely move his arms and yet he still put on a match that was widely praised.

Don't confuse superiority with inferiority. Just because Angle could leave guys in the dust with his skills doesn't mean he was a bad wrestler. He forced guys to raise their game and in the process got tremendous matches. He didn't dumb down his wrestling skills no doubt about that but that seems to be what you would have wanted.

Vince135792003

For me a great match is one that grabs me emotionally, without having the people involved having to mame each other.

For me the question always after a match is "Did they make me care?". Kurt Angle has made me care more than most.

I don't really buy into "technical wrestling" or "basic fundamentals" anymore because its subjective with people growing up watching different eras and having different opinions.

Mr.Nice Guy

flahavaj wrote: »

Well Flair is also of the opinion that Hart is one of the most overrated workers ever and criticises heavily his repetetive style. But what does he know eh?

We're not talking about Hart though, we're talking about Angle.

flahavaj wrote:

Give your own opinion and don't rely on those of others. Just because they're workers doesn't mean they can't have opinions that go against what you or I might take as gospel.

I have given my opinions. I'm just making the point that my opinions are shared by the greats of this business whereas yours are shared by...um...ROH die-hards?

flahavaj

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

We're not talking about Hart though, we're talking about Angle.



I have given my opinions. I'm just making the point that my opinions are shared by the greats of this business whereas yours are shared by...um...ROH die-hards?

You miss the point completely. The point is that one of the greats of the business, Flair has that particular opinion, one that I'm sure you don't agree with. I was merely pointing out the inherent flaws in using other's opinions as a basis for YOUR argument. No matter how well qualified they are it's easy to point out things they've said in the past to support or go against your argument, but ultimately it serves little use.

Your ROH jibe is quite frankly bizarre. ROH has nothing to do with this argument. I'm sure there are ROH fans who love Kurt Angle, I'm sure there are some who despise the guy. It's irrelevant really. Your anti ROH bias, for right or for wrong, has no place in this debate my friend. You don't see me bringing up your HHH phobia now, do you?;)

ShawnRaven

flahavaj wrote: »

Your anti ROH bias, for right or for wrong, has no place in this debate my friend. You don't see me bringing up your HHH phobia now, do you?;)

Heh, MNG just got served!
VR!

gimmick

Mr. Nice Guy wrote:

I feel you place far too much emphasis on targeting body parts as criteria for being a great technical wrestler.

But isn't that a major part of wrestling psychology?

Of course he's not a Japanese nobody who persistently sells a chop he took in the opening seconds of a match therefore the die-hards crap all over him. Give me a break.

Its quotes like that which make me 100% sure you are on a wind up and why i dont take you seriously anymore. A Japanese nobody? Firstly that could be construed as being highly racist, as if a wrestler isn't from North America he is a nobody. Who are you talking about more specifically? Not to mention, is the nobody Kenzo Suzuki, a Japanese guy who worked for the WWE? Or is it someone who has never worked in WWE?

Danielson is a glorified, unproven bore who is a poor man's William Regal. He has proven nothing at the top level of this industry and it is an insult to compare him to a technical legend like Kurt Angle. Were you one of those who labelled CM Punk one of the best in the world when he was in ROH?

Your constant anti ROH bias has been apparent for a long time as you consistently use it as a way of backing up some of your opinions. Who brought ROH first in this thread? And most thread for that matter? Of course not everyone will like a certain product, you dont like ROH, the indies, Puro. Others do. Thats not goingto change anytime soon by the looks.

Tricity Bendix

validreasoning! wrote: »

Hold up a sec, Jericho got his first run 2 years in the company, while HHH had to wait 4 years. So Jericho is a bad example there.

Hmm. I don't really think waiting periods has much to do with anything. What about Jericho having to make way for Trips on his return? That pushed Jericho down to the middle of the card. Plus, Jericho won his first title and his undisputed title while Trips was injured. If he had been around for the invasion, I think it would have been likely that he would have held at least one of the titles.

Kane? Not a chance! Especially when he was given the belt for his 24 hour run. There was a reason why he was given his gimmick, because he couldn't cut a promo to save his life. That's a big factor for top guys.

I don't know what you mean by his 24 hour run. Are you saying that because Kane was able to say he was champion that that would be enough? If so, I disagree. Kane has been very over with fans and sells boats loads of merchandise. I don't see how not cutting a promo has hindered the Deadman. I'm pretty sure Kane could pull off "[insert wrestler's name], at [insert event title] you will [insert euphamism for 'get your ass whooped']".

Same with Benoit, as great as he was in the ring, are we really meant to be bowled over when he tells us he's "4 real"?

Hold up. Are you saying Benoit was undeserving of his (short) title run because his promos were sucky?

Guerrero i will give you, but given the amount of times he's f*cked up over the years in both WCW and WWE, obviously the company was gonna be somewhat cautious before giving him the main strap. So Guerrero realistically only has himself to blame.

Like they were cautious with Orton?

Other names that could have been draws include Rob Van Dam, Edge, Christian and Booker T.

Bubs101

Kane cut AMAZING promo's with his voice box

ShawnRaven

b.ie polar wrote: »

Hmm. I don't really think waiting periods has much to do with anything. What about Jericho having to make way for Trips on his return? That pushed Jericho down to the middle of the card. Plus, Jericho won his first title and his undisputed title while Trips was injured. If he had been around for the invasion, I think it would have been likely that he would have held at least one of the titles.

Jericho did not draw as champion, neither did Benoit for that matter but i'll get to that later. Here we go with the HHHating again. HHH has nothing to do with this really, if they really wanted to, they could have thrown the belt back on either Rock, Austin or Undertaker. WWE thought Jericho was ready, WWE were wrong. Now i'm as much of a Jericho mark as the next guy, and thought the handling of his title run was awful (much like Benoit's) but that had nothing to do with HHH. As for "making way for HHH", I'm sure HHH didn't plan on Austin walking out and Rock going to Hollywood. Hell, he wasn't even planning to return as a face! Sounds to me like you're grasping at straws.

I don't know what you mean by his 24 hour run. Are you saying that because Kane was able to say he was champion that that would be enough? If so, I disagree. Kane has been very over with fans and sells boats loads of merchandise. I don't see how not cutting a promo has hindered the Deadman. I'm pretty sure Kane could pull off "[insert wrestler's name], at [insert event title] you will [insert euphamism for 'get your ass whooped']".

You don't know what i mean by his 24 hour run? Great start! Kane is a former WWE champion, he won the title in 1998 from Austin, but lost it back to him on RAW the following night. Not cutting a promo did hinder the deadman because he barely cut a promo for his first four years. Taker started cutting promos by himself in 96 after Paul Bearer turned on him. Fans bought into it as well. Taker learned to cut a promo, he got over. Kane failed at that and fans stopped caring. If you can tell me you cared about the Kane/Xpac Storyline in 99, then either you're a barefaced liar, or you're crazy!

Hold up. Are you saying Benoit was undeserving of his (short) title run because his promos were sucky?

I never said he was undeserving of it, i was partially explaining of why it was so short. The other reason is that he didn't draw a dime as champion. Of course bad management and booking came into play, as he was stuck in limbo tagging with Edge who was on the verge of a heel turn. He was given the big one, and like Jericho, he choked.

Like they were cautious with Orton?

Way different story there. Orton hadn't been fired from the company previously. Didn't get repeatedly arrested and have a problem with prescriptives. Orton was also handed too much too soon, on top of being hastily turned face, no wonder that championship bombed!

Other names that could have been draws include Rob Van Dam, Edge, Christian and Booker T.

In 2002 when Jericho lost the title, Christian was nowhere near ready for a main event push, nor would he be anywhere near ready until about 2005, and even that is very questionable! Same for Booker T. Would Booker T have been seriously pushed as singles in WCW as he was by anyone else other than Vince Russo? And Why? RVD had already choked in the main event program the year before and Edge was being rapidly pushed at that time, but he'd get injured shortly afterwards.

In 2004? Get serious would you! RVD and Booker T over top draws like Undertaker and Kurt Angle? I'm glad you're not booking my promotion. Or are you gonna say that they were held back on Smackdown by Taker and Angle? As for Edge, he was pushed, and pushed to the moon. But had they tried that two years earlier, he wouldn't have gotten over. You can't push someone overnight and hope it works. It doesn't, and how many cases are out there that have lived to tell the tell, some aren't even alive. Ask Renegade!

VR!

AlphaMale 3OO

validreasoning! wrote: »

I'm glad you're not booking my promotion.

VR!

You have a promotion?

ShawnRaven

Yeah! I'm a f*ckin multi millionaire with nothing better to do with my time than surf the PW forum all day! :P

VR!

Tricity Bendix

validreasoning! wrote: »

Jericho did not draw as champion, neither did Benoit for that matter but i'll get to that later. Here we go with the HHHating again.

Here we go with the inaccurate labelling again. If you care to check the thread where all the HHHating began, you will see that not only am I not a HHHater, I actually defended him against accusations that he never put anyone over.

HHH has nothing to do with this really, if they really wanted to, they could have thrown the belt back on either Rock, Austin or Undertaker. WWE thought Jericho was ready, WWE were wrong. Now i'm as much of a Jericho mark as the next guy, and thought the handling of his title run was awful (much like Benoit's) but that had nothing to do with HHH. As for "making way for HHH", I'm sure HHH didn't plan on Austin walking out and Rock going to Hollywood. Hell, he wasn't even planning to return as a face! Sounds to me like you're grasping at straws.

You're right about Jericho's run being badly booked. Another run could have worked out better, but we'll probably never know. But on to Austin and The Rock. Jericho had just finished pregrams with them. I doubt WWE would rehash rivalries considering they had just ended a couple of months earlier.

And the fact that you mention the alternatives only helps prove my point. Yes, they could have gone with Austin, Rock, or Taker, but instead they went with the option that they've gone with 11 times and gave HHH another title run.

You don't know what i mean by his 24 hour run? Great start! Kane is a former WWE champion, he won the title in 1998 from Austin, but lost it back to him on RAW the following night.

*sigh*

You've misunderstood me. I know very well that Kane was champion for a day, I just don't understand what relevency that has.

Not cutting a promo did hinder the deadman because he barely cut a promo for his first four years. Taker started cutting promos by himself in 96 after Paul Bearer turned on him. Fans bought into it as well. Taker learned to cut a promo, he got over. Kane failed at that and fans stopped caring.

I'm not going to repeat myself. Taker doesn't use his mouth to get himself over. He only needs to look scary. A few years ago, Kane looked scary.

If you can tell me you cared about the Kane/Xpac Storyline in 99, then either you're a barefaced liar, or you're crazy!

No, but I can tell you that I cared a lot when he was IC champ and was putting on good matches with Edge, Christian, Albert and Rhyno.

I never said he was undeserving of it, i was partially explaining of why it was so short. The other reason is that he didn't draw a dime as champion. Of course bad management and booking came into play, as he was stuck in limbo tagging with Edge who was on the verge of a heel turn. He was given the big one, and like Jericho, he choked.

I think the booking team choked, so we're just going to have to differ on this.

Way different story there. Orton hadn't been fired from the company previously. Didn't get repeatedly arrested and have a problem with prescriptives. Orton was also handed too much too soon, on top of being hastily turned face, no wonder that championship bombed!

And yet, when Orton acts up again (If it could ever be said that he stopped acting up) he gets another title run.

Guerrero had been working his ass off from the time he got to Smackdown! and was probably their biggest star.

In 2002 when Jericho lost the title, Christian was nowhere near ready for a main event push, nor would he be anywhere near ready until about 2005, and even that is very questionable! Same for Booker T. Would Booker T have been seriously pushed as singles in WCW as he was by anyone else other than Vince Russo? And Why? RVD had already choked in the main event program the year before and Edge was being rapidly pushed at that time, but he'd get injured shortly afterwards.

Christian was ready to be pushed to the moon. WWE ignored this. The space of top heel was consistantly cut off from Edge and Christian so long as HHH was around.

Why did Booker T deserve a singles push? Because he worked hard, pt on good matches, and entertained people. Seems pretty obvious to me. The thought of him beating HHH at Wrestlemania gave me goosebumps. The fact that it was a bad match was less disappointing than the actual result.

Around about the time of Michaels' return, RVD was huge. A title run would have been wholly credible.

In 2004? Get serious would you! RVD and Booker T over top draws like Undertaker and Kurt Angle?

Taker wasn't around for the McM-H era, and Angle was only new to sports entertainment. As for the later period of dominance on RAW, both Angle and Taker were on Smackdown.

Or are you gonna say that they were held back on Smackdown by Taker and Angle?

Angle put over Booker and Edge in his time.

ShawnRaven

b.ie polar wrote: »

Here we go with the inaccurate labelling again. If you care to check the thread where all the HHHating began, you will see that not only am I not a HHHater, I actually defended him against accusations that he never put anyone over.

Sorry if i got that wrong, but it just seemed like you were jumping on the HHH wants as many title reigns as possible bandwagon.

And the fact that you mention the alternatives only helps prove my point. Yes, they could have gone with Austin, Rock, or Taker, but instead they went with the option that they've gone with 11 times and gave HHH another title run.

Except HHH wasn't near his ninth, tenth or eleventh title run during that time frame. Or do we have our wires crossed here? I'm talking about when he won the title in 2001.

You've misunderstood me. I know very well that Kane was champion for a day, I just don't understand what relevency that has.

The relevancy was that you said he hadn't been pushed or given a title run in all his time.

I'm not going to repeat myself. Taker doesn't use his mouth to get himself over. He only needs to look scary. A few years ago, Kane looked scary.

He always looked scary, but that act was wearing thin and as a result, his promos were an alternative.

No, but I can tell you that I cared a lot when he was IC champ and was putting on good matches with Edge, Christian, Albert and Rhyno.

Which is exactly the reason he has stayed in the midcard. Because he could help elevate the other guys you have mentioned.

And yet, when Orton acts up again (If it could ever be said that he stopped acting up) he gets another title run.

Different degrees of misdemeanours there i'm afraid. Different story when the law is involved. See Van Dam, Rob.

Guerrero had been working his ass off from the time he got to Smackdown! and was probably their biggest star.

I'll agree, and he got the title run as a result.

Christian was ready to be pushed to the moon. WWE ignored this. The space of top heel was consistantly cut off from Edge and Christian so long as HHH was around.

I disagree about Christian at the time, I will agree with Edge but he was slowly getting over. Christian might have been over, but he wasn't main event level. He'd have been laughed at. Hell he was laughed at when he was given the TNA title first. Granted, he grew on the fans, especially the thought of another Jarrett run.

Why did Booker T deserve a singles push? Because he worked hard, pt on good matches, and entertained people. Seems pretty obvious to me. The thought of him beating HHH at Wrestlemania gave me goosebumps. The fact that it was a bad match was less disappointing than the actual result.

Really? I thought it was a foregone conclusion HHH was gonna win that one, hence it's midcard status, nevermind the racist storyline building up to it.

Around about the time of Michaels' return, RVD was huge. A title run would have been wholly credible.

RVD was the IC titleholder around that time. Around that very same time he pretty much verbally trashed the title, ensuring he'd never get another push. He has himself to blame there.

VR!

rossie1977

flahavaj wrote: »

but as in ring technicians they are in my opinion far superior)

Benoit
Regal
Malenko
Flair
Dory Funk
Danielson
Mil Mascaras
Antoni Inoki
Fit Finlay
Eddie Guerrero
Kurt Hennig
Steamboat
Toishiaki Kawada
Giant Baba
The Destroyer

Hell, someone like Val Venis is probably a better mat based chain wrestler than Angle and I'm not joking

Why didn't i see this thread earlier All of these guys better technical wrestlers than angle :eek: if you had gone and told them that yourself, they would have laughed in your face. That is the same as saying wesley snipes is technically a better basketballer than mj because of their respective movies

you also compared lashley and Shelton Benjamin's amateur careers to angles, wtf, let me add big bad brock lesnar to this list. College wrestlers being compared to a world champion and olympic gold medalist

Cactus Col

validreasoning! wrote: »

You don't know what i mean by his 24 hour run? Great start! Kane is a former WWE champion, he won the title in 1998 from Austin, but lost it back to him on RAW the following night. Not cutting a promo did hinder the deadman because he barely cut a promo for his first four years. Taker started cutting promos by himself in 96 after Paul Bearer turned on him. Fans bought into it as well. Taker learned to cut a promo, he got over. Kane failed at that and fans stopped caring. If you can tell me you cared about the Kane/Xpac Storyline in 99, then either you're a barefaced liar, or you're crazy!

Just to make a point on this ....people might not have cared about the Kane/Xpac storyline in 99, but people did care about Kane. Since his debut he has been constantly over with the fans. So much so that bad storylines and gimmicks have failed to make him unpopular. A lesser wrestler would have been destroyed by what they have put Kane through. Like The Undertaker he has been a reliable wrestler, giving his all to the wwe, and certainly does not seem to have been prone to ego or power trips. Definetly one of the greatest big men in the last decade and a half.

I would have liked to have seen Kane have a second, somewhat longer title reign, but like DiBiasi or Piper there never really was a good time for it, and he certainly didn't need it to be over. (Yes I do realise I'm comparing Kane to two of the greatest talkers of all time.)

ShawnRaven

Hold up a sec, when did Piper hold the big one? DiBiase in 88, sure! But Piper?
VR!

Fozzy

validreasoning! wrote: »

Hold up a sec, when did Piper hold the big one? DiBiase in 88, sure! But Piper?
VR!

He was saying that there was never a right time for Piper to hold the belt

rossie1977

kane not holding the belt for a certain length of time, not that big of a deal imo

DiBiase not holding the belt for a certain length of time, one of the greatest injustices' pro-wrestling has ever known

i actually preferred issac yankem over kane :cool:

Bubs101

Kane never would have worked with a title run. His role as an outsider was perfect when he had the mask. Him with the belt never would have felt right. The only problem is how believable he was continually destroying and destroying everybody but never having the belt.

Anyway, back on-topic, I believe that steriod use shouldn't be discouraged in the WWE

ShawnRaven

Totally misread that (again!)
I really can't see Kane up there in the same category with the likes of DiBiase, or Piper. I could see Andre up there alright Kane? Nah, i just can't see him at the top carrying the company, regardless of how over he is or how hard he's worked.

VR!

ShawnRaven

rossie1977 wrote: »

DiBiase not holding the belt for a certain length of time, one of the greatest injustices' pro-wrestling has ever known

Absolutely, and you can blame another whiner, The Honky Tonk Man on it.
VR!

rossie1977

Bubs101 wrote: »

Anyway, back on-topic, I believe that steriod use shouldn't be discouraged in the WWE

ohhhhhhh not this is controversial, you related to Andrew Test Martin by any chance

in one way i agree because wrestling ain't a sport and being compared to baseball, basketball, olympics is pointless. Anabolic steroids ain't gonna give a pro wrestler an advantage over another wrestler in terms of winning, now are they

However the dangers of prolonged and misuse of anabolic steroids is well documented and thus mixed with other recreational drugs such as booze, painkillers, crack etc they are lethal.

because of the issues i tend to side with the anti-steriod people

ShawnRaven

You also forgot to mention the amount of pain pill abusers. That still goes on, wasn't Joey Mercury busted on that a few months back?

VR!

Bubs101

Rossie, those dangers are precisely why the WWE shouldn't be discouraging steroid use. If they let the wrestlers come clean about who was using and who wasn't they could help them achieve their desired image healthily and use their medical staff to moniter them. It might have even cut down on the steroid related deaths