Around The Horn #1

Bounty Hunter

after discussing it with Vince135792003 on the controversial wrestling thread ive decided to give this a try.

for those not used to ATH, its an american show on ESPN where a number of panelists/experts make arguments an a certain topic. The host awards points for each response depending on how well argued their point is, not neccesarily if he agrees with their point but how well they back up their argument. Obviously the winner is the person with the highest number of points. I think this format could actually work quite well here if anyone was interested, afterall there are a number of people here who like to think of themselves as experts on all things wrestling related, here is a chance to prove it.

each day for 5days i will post a topic for example also inspired from the contoversial thread: is HBK the most consistent performer in the history of WWE/F? you can make your arguement and counter others until the next topic is posted at which point i wll post the first round scores. at the end of the five days the person on the highest points tally will be crowned Boards.ie ATH Champion and if its a success will hopefully defend that title at ATH#2.

to give people a chance to notice/read this and give me a chance to decide on a first topic i will wait until tomorow to begin round 1.

Vince135792003

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

, afterall there are a number of people here who like to think of themselves as experts on all things wrestling related, here is a chance to prove it.

It's the first thing I put on my CV.

I'll do it. As long as its not anything to do about Montreal 1997. I know its topical with it being the 10 year anniversary but its been debated to death.

I don't want to get technical over something fun but can you just maybe make one or two posts and that be it and still be crowned the Bobby the Brain of the board!? In other words make your point, maybe counter back once and that be it. I'm just not fan of discussions where people go round in circles, saying the same thing 50 times and not listening to the other person which I've been apart of too to be fair.

Bounty Hunter

Vince135792003 wrote: »

It's the first think I put on my CV.

I'll do it. As long as its not anything to do about Montreal 1997. I know its topical with it being the 10 year anniversary but its been debated to death.

that would certainley make you memorable to any prespective employer, and yeah ill avoid certain topics people have discussed a million times at least during version#1

Bounty Hunter

Vince135792003 wrote: »

I don't want to get technical over something fun but can you just maybe make one or two posts and that be it and still be crowned the Bobby the Brain of the board!? In other words make your point, maybe counter back once and that be it. I'm just not fan of discussions where people go round in circles, saying the same thing 50 times and not listening to the other person.

the host (me:D) will take different things into account, but he who speaks the most will not win the debate. The person who makes the best points and can back them up will. repetition and making your arguemnet longer just for the sake of it can count against you also as it would detract from your core points. if that answers your concern

Vince135792003

Cool. And what was the cash prize you were offering again?

Bounty Hunter

im sure certain people would be happy with being able to remind other posters such as yourself that they are the champ and not you... remember HHH and the fantasy league

estebancambias

I'm in, although my lack of point backing up could mean I'm doomed to fail. I just use other peoples opinion...mash them althogether and display them as my own.


*sort of reality, sort of not*

Bounty Hunter

good good the more the merrier

Bubs101

I'll give it a lash. Love the TV show

EdK

The title of this thread sounds like either an orgy or a low budget porno haha

Seen the show on NASN but i'd rather watch games, was never one for pundits in any sport

Mr.Nice Guy

Sounds interesting and I think Vince made a good point about limiting responses.

ShawnRaven

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Sounds interesting and I think Vince made a good point about limiting responses.

Yeah! Especially in your case
Sorry dude, but you lef yourself wide open for that one!

VR!

Bounty Hunter

*okay you can only counter an arguement once, although you can counter as many different peoples arguements as much as you want (but only once each). if someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them plus someone else might continue to question it in your place.

a-hole

we can safely state HBK is the most consistent performer in the history of WWE/F if you look at his 02-07 days they consist of the eppic fude agenst hhh his return at sumerslam was the best raw match of the year and continuing to carry hhh through his inguary to an imence 2outa3 match was amesing then to have the match of mania with y2j blue everybody away then raws wrighting got stagnent for a few munths but he still managed to elevate ortan to ledgand killer while having a fantastic match with flair skip to surviver series and the match that turned into a 3on1 match for stonecold blue everyone away. skip on to wm and backlash in brilent tripple treaths with benoit and hhh he showed how good he was raw matches with jbl and cena before survivor series showed how good he was. till today where he pulls fantastic matches out of ortan (never mind the ending)
then we go back to the ninthys where he dominated 80% of ppvs pulling fantastic matches out of vader deasal and sid with his everlasting and unbeliving fude with the undertaker, his 1hour+ match with breat and folys best match at mind games.
then we go back to the rockers we have it hard to find a more consistant worker than hbk over so many years

Bounty Hunter

hope your warmed up a-hole, since you gave a response to the example topic.

please everone read the above posts especially the first one before responding. Here we go

ATH:Round 1
Q.Who is the most underutilised member of the current WWE roster? (Raw or SD) and why did you choose this person over other wrestlers?

Vince135792003

I guess I'd go with the obvious one that being Shelton Benjamin.

Its not the year 2000 when WWE was loaded with great wrestler's and he's proven really ever since he arrived that he could go in the ring with his run in Team Angle. He always looks good in the ring anytime I see him. He can mat wrestle, he can move great, he's extremely agile and is generally always entertaining.

He's had break out moments too like his matches with Michaels, Triple H and his performance at Wrestlemania 22 in the ladder match. For whatever reason though, they were just never patient enough to get him to next level and I think he's at a point in his career that they have damaged him so bad (with the Momma's boy angle in particular) that fans will never buy him as a top guy.

And that's why I chose him over anybody else. He's not a great talker but when you look at the talent depth on Raw, he sticks out like a sore thumb to me as a guy whose consistent push has not equaled his talent.

Minto

William Regal should be a World Champion! He has had some great matches in his career. He is great on the mic and IMO helped Edge greatly in their feud in Dec '01 to Feb '02. That feud helped Edge break away from the tag team wrestler and become a singles wrestler.

Mr.Nice Guy

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

ATH:Round 1
Q.Who is the most underutilised member of the current WWE roster? (Raw or SD) and why did you choose this person over other wrestlers?

I would have to go with Matt Hardy.

I think he has shown himself to be very highly skilled in the ring over the past year and he reminds me of Rob Van Dam in the sense that even when the WWE have left him floundering in mid-card, he still gets a big pop from the crowd and seems to have a strong connection with the audience.

I think the main reason he tended to get lost in the shuffle in the past was down to his poor mic skills but I feel he has improved greatly in this area and I've really enjoyed his feud with MVP which has been entertaining both inside and outside of the ring.

While I agree with Vince that Shelton Benjamin is badly under-utilised I think the fact his mic skills continue to be poor makes it understandable why they are reluctant to throw their weight behind him. Matt Hardy on the other hand has managed to strengthen his talking ability and has been consistently good in the ring. I would even argue that right now Matt is a better talker and better wrestler than his brother Jeff who is a key figure on Raw and has been verging on the main event level. I find it a real shame that on supposedly the 'B show', Matt isn't in a similar position to his brother.

I hope they get behind him and give him a US title run as he has been criminally misused so far. If the WWE want stars for the future then they need to back those guys who the fans have taken to. Matt Hardy is one of those guys.

Vince135792003

I'd agree that Sheltons mic skills aren't great but I wouldn't go so far to say that they're poor. Certainly I don't think that it should be the reason he basically gets jobbed out on Raw each week.

Look at Rey, I think he's worse on the mic than Shelton but they still push him. I'm not saying Shelton is Rey Mysterio but I'm just making the point that if the company decides get behind a guy, they'll overlook their weaknesses.

I think they should have gone with the Apollo Creed gimmick with Shelton. The "I'm so talented, don't you just hate me?" heel character.

I think Matt is under utilesd to a degree but less so than Shelton. You can definitely make the argument that he's being under utilised if you think he should be a top guy. However he's got a pretty good spot on Smackdown right now.

He's apart of a feud thats been given lots of air time with MVP and has had alot of novelty around it. Not every wrestler can say they got to box Evander Holyfield on NBC! Matt Hardy can.

Alas, poor Shelton can not say that. He's busy losing to newbies like Cody Rhodes (who I think has potential) in less than 3 minutes on tv.

I'm out. I expect a butchering from MNG. I've learned a valuable lesson in this game though. Never go first!

Mr.Nice Guy

Well I think when judging whether or not a guy is underutilised you have to look at where they are at the minute and compare it to where they could be. I do agree that when when you apply this criteria Shelton is underutilised since at the minute he is basically a jobber but the question is, where could he be? With his present mic skills could Shelton reach the very top? I don't believe so.

I think when you look at Matt Hardy and where he is at the minute, then yes he does have a much better spot than Shelton however could Matt reach the very top? I would say yes he could and to me anyway, mid-card for Matt is a bigger misuse of talent than lower-end card is for Shelton.

I guess this ends my contribution to the debate too!

Bounty Hunter

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I guess this ends my contribution to the debate too!

not neccesarily you can still respond to other peoples arguements (once) just not Vinces anymore. remember the more flawed others arguements look the better yours will seem in coparison. just after some prompting i added that rule to not have the thread going around in circles.

Bubs101

I disagree with you both. For me, Jimmy Wang Yang is the most underutilised talent on both SD and Raw. For me, to say Matt is underutilized is ridiculous. He's been invovled in story lines for both the Tag titles and the US title in recent months. He gets on every pay-per-view if he's fit. The WWE think enough of his storyline to get big names like Hollyfield and Austin in on them. The only way he could move up would be to the title. There are a couple of reasons why he shouldn't do that now. The MVP feud is brilliant and it would be terrible to end that quick so he could feud and lose to Batista, especially when, if he waited, he could have a programme with Edge.

As for why Jimmy is under-utilised, first of all, he's hardly ever on TV but he's very very over. The fans love him and if they pushed him into a proper feud over something that means something like a terribly understrength tag division then he would sell by the truck load. He'd also appeal to the rather large Asian community in America, something which is rather untapped by the WWE, and we all know how they love to make a quick buck. From a financial viewpoint, a big push would be very rewarding for the WWE.

From a wrestling point of view, he seems to be quiet good technichally but I'm not the best judge so I'll leave that to MVP's rebuttal . To have him locked in a CW division with no champion, and no Helms or Mysterio (credible oponents), is criminal. A programme with Ray or Kane would put him over big style and would certainly give the stale Kane a new lease of life. A feud would not onle be beneficial for him but Kane and maybe Finlay aswell. He also has a top rope finisher which the WWE lacks big style since Benoit and RVD have gone

gimmick

Most Under Utilized in WWE?

For me, given how long he has been in the company, and seem to be a total company man, its Val Venis. Val came on the scene in 1997 ish, which a fairly ridiculous gimmick by todays standards, but he did make it work. He is good in the ring, he had Trish as his manager, he worked a good promo. All of a sudden he ended up in an absolutely mis-booked fued with Kai en tai, a fued he lost if memory serves, and never again made an impact.

He was briefly repackaged away from the towel to the leather jacket and had one memorable interaction with Austin in 1999, where I was thinking he was on the beginning of a push. Next thing we know he is gone almost completely apart from the odd Velocity or Metal or Heat match until he shows up as Chief Morley - Bischoffs lackey, a non wrestling part. This didn't last long either, and then it was back to the "hello ladies" gimmick again where he now jobs for no talent wasters and never will bes like Snitsky.

Vince135792003

Bubs101 wrote: »

As for why Jimmy is under-utilised, first of all, he's hardly ever on TV but he's very very over.

Come on now. He might be more over than Shannon Moore but there's dozens of people more over than him.

To be fair, he and the majority of all cruiser weights that WWE employ are under-utilised. In other words, its really the whole division that isn't getting proper treatment rather than just 1 guy.

Bubs101

Jimmy gets a massive pop every time he comes out and yes, although every cruiserweight in the WWE is underutilised, the rest of them aren't as over as Jimmy or have nowhere near the potential selling power of Jimmy, Rey being the exception to the rule obvioulsy

Charlie

For me, its Ric Flair.

Chris Jericho recently made the point that wrestling is 'show business' and without the 'show' aspect to a wrestler, that wrestler will never go far. Its the characters that draw people in he said. For me, thats why the likes of Shelton, Matt Hardy and Jimmy are not really under-utilized, none of them have the charisma or promo's within them to be given a big push.

Sure, Flair is getting on in years, and his body isn't what it used to be, but he can still bump with the best of em, and when it comes to that all important 'show' aspect, there's few people in the business today that can match Flair. The man oozes charisma.

Further, this is supposed to be his retirement year. WWE should really capitalize on that. Did the hype around Rocky Balboa not tell them anything?? Flair still has enough skills in the ring to carry such a program, but more importantly, he has the ability to cut fantastic promos that would get a crowd really behind him. Has anyone seen the promo he cut on Bisch when he returned to WCW?

Bubs101

Flair may have the show aspect, but he can't keep chopping people all the way to a PPV where he busts out the odd figure four

ShawnRaven

Bubs101 wrote: »

Flair may have the show aspect, but he can't keep chopping people all the way to a PPV where he busts out the odd figure four

Didn't Cena do it for years, waving his hand in front of his face, drop a fist and do occasional STF's? Not to mention his really bad rapping? I think it was between 2003 and 2006?

Or Rock with his stupid eyebrow followed by an even more stupid elbow?
VR!

Bounty Hunter

validreasoning! wrote: »

Didn't Cena do it for years, waving his hand in front of his face, drop a fist and do occasional STF's? Not to mention his really bad rapping? I think it was between 2003 and 2006?

Or Rock with his stupid eyebrow followed by an even more stupid elbow?
VR!

please join the game or avoid detracting from others points as that can only damage their chances, ideally the first option.

ShawnRaven

I thought i was?
Nevermind

VR!

Bounty Hunter

validreasoning! wrote: »

I thought i was?
Nevermind

VR!

im going to try and not let this go off topic so will not continue to reply like this but you are actually one of the people i think this idea would suit (although i dont always agree with your arguements). all I meant by join the game is that i will not be able to rate and give points to you unless you first answer todays topic, then you are obviously more than welcome to counter someoneone elses.

Bubs101

I'll answer VR!. I always thought that the Cena rapper angle was just a way to start the Christian and Tomko rap crew and launch Smackdown! records. Unforunately they couldn't settle a contract so they let Cena record an album instead.
Also, Cena always had a few moves, are you forgetting that thing when he touches his shoes and fell on some guy

ShawnRaven

Alright let me give this one a shot seeing as nobody has mentioned him.
Two words come to mind - Jamie Noble.

His WCW cruiser work was outstanding and he was given a pretty heavy midcard push when he made his debut in 2002. Once he got released initially, i had no idea what was gonna become of him, until he got rehired again. Only to be one of the new pitbulls? Christ knows who came up with that one, and then pairing him with Kid Kash when the world and his wife knew they didn't get along. They were like the Young Stallions (Roma and Powers) for the moden era, two tag partners who hated each other!

As for Matt Hardy, i'm gonna disagree, he's been pushed time out of number to upper midcard and he choked every time. He had a chance to step up to the plate upon his return with Edge and he choked after a couple of months. He's also on the wrong brand, and everyone knows he's just there right now to be fodder for MVP's eventual push. Hardy was pushed in 2002 when the whole V1 gimmick got over, and then he choked again. Hes the Lex Luger for the modern era.

VR!

ShawnRaven

Bubs101 wrote: »

I'll answer VR!. I always thought that the Cena rapper angle was just a way to start the Christian and Tomko rap crew and launch Smackdown! records. Unforunately they couldn't settle a contract so they let Cena record an album instead.
Also, Cena always had a few moves, are you forgetting that thing when he touches his shoes and fell on some guy

I personally don't buy that dude. Mainly because that rapper gimmick started at the end of 2002 at that point Christian was Jericho's lackey and Tomko wasn't even with the company. The Cena album contract also got the go ahead before Tomko joined the promotion. It was hyped on his Word Life DVD

VR!

flahavaj

Sheesh when I saw this the 2 names that came into my head were Noble and Regal.

Anyhoo barring those guys i'm gonna go with Gregory Helms. Back in the dying days of WCW this guy was one of the guys who was actually worth looking at. His matches with Yang, Noble et al were full of the kind of workrate and enthusiasm that were solely lacking in their co workers at this time. Indeed if the big names in the company had tried even half as hard as these guys busted their asses then maybe the company might have lasted a little longer.

Once Vince bought out the company, Helms, wrestling as the Hurricane became an instant fan favourite. His gimmick put him instantly over with live audiences and his catchphrases and comical mannerisms were highly popular. Alas all that he would be given as a reward for this were a handful of Hardcore title reigns and the odd tilt at the cruiserweight title. The gimmick had massive potential especially with his alter ego as a press reporter in backstage segments.

Perhaps the greatest display of Helms potential was in his classic backstage portions with the Rock. Who will ever forget the immortal line "Ronald MacDonald and the Hamburgler"! When he put on a great showing in the ring in narrowly losing the the Rock, I honestly thought he was in line for a massive push. Unfortunately Vince chose to ignore the huge crowd support he had and buried him in the midcard once again.

In terms of in-ring work too, Helms is excellent and is rarely given the stage on which to display his skills. He is crisp and clean, rarely ****s up and hits a gorgeous shining wizard. His brutal finisher the Vertebraker was also baned, a further example of his having his legs cut from beneath him.

He was given a run as Cruiser champ once he dropped the gimmick as hurricane, but the length of his 8-month title reign was deceptive. Despite some really solid bouts with Matt Hardy amongst others, he was for the most part, pushed to the sidelines in favour of the latest Silisone Search contestant.

Ladies and gentlemen, Gregory Helms, criminally underrated and underutilised.

Bubs101

Which part of "an angle to get christian a recording contract with Tomko as his beatbox" did you take at face value. FFS VR!. The Cena comment is pointless. Just because Cena did it doesn't mean that it's acceptable for Flair or anyone to do it. And Cena was nowhere near as resticted as Flair is while the rock at least had 5 moves

Back on topic, I feel that you are all missing a big part of the topic. Economic value, something which the WWE holds in higher value than the wrestling ability and thus, an unexploited economic angle would make someone more "undervalued" in the WWE than good wrestlers( Noble and Benjamin) or loyal wrestlers who deserve their moment (Val and Hardy). Hardy will never be as popular or sell better than his brother because kids love high flying moves like the Swanton (and Jimmy Wang Yangs moonsault), Shelton really doesn't deserve another push considering the one he had before was monumental (beating both Hunter and Y2J) and although he is a black wrestler, Lashley covers any market that Shelton would. Noble has little charisma although his Hornswaggle promos were OK but even then, you wouldn't wanna give a big push to someone who lost out in a feud for the CW title with Hornswaggle. Flair will sell regardless based on his past, not his present work. Jimmy has a whole minority to play to which no-one else their has. He's make money. Asians tend to follow their own, countless examples in football who've had little talent but heaps of marketing (Inamoto, Li Tie etc.) and Jimmy isn't even a bad wrestler

flahavaj

Bubs101 wrote: »

Back on topic, I feel that you are all missing a big part of the topic. Economic value, something which the WWE holds in higher value than the wrestling ability and thus, an unexploited economic angle would make someone more "undervalued" in the WWE than good wrestlers( Noble and Benjamin) or loyal wrestlers who deserve their moment (Val and Hardy). Hardy will never be as popular or sell better than his brother because kids love high flying moves like the Swanton (and Jimmy Wang Yangs moonsault), Shelton really doesn't deserve another push considering the one he had before was monumental (beating both Hunter and Y2J) and although he is a black wrestler, Lashley covers any market that Shelton would. Noble has little charisma although his Hornswaggle promos were OK but even then, you wouldn't wanna give a big push to someone who lost out in a feud for the CW title with Hornswaggle. Flair will sell regardless based on his past, not his present work. Jimmy has a whole minority to play to which no-one else their has. He's make money. Asians tend to follow their own, countless examples in football who've had little talent but heaps of marketing (Inamoto, Li Tie etc.) and Jimmy isn't even a bad wrestler

Which is why Helms is the correct answer. A combination of the high-flying ability you say the kids love and the obvious marketing potential of the Hurrican gimmick(masks etc). Cheers.:D

gimmick

The Hurricane gimmick ran its course, plus the mask sales are already tied up with Rey Mysterio. I agree re Helms though. A very impressive worker who never really got a shot, and was even left out of a match to get someone else over for the TLC match when he used tag with Kane.

Bubs101

I am a massive fan of The Hurricane and thus Helms, but this topic must be fought with Head, not heart (after all, the topic ruled out ECW which I only found out after writing my heart-felt case for the MIZ!) and I'm pretty sure Helms doesn't want to be The Hurricane anymore. Shame though, if he did I'd urge the great yellow hope to STAND BACK, there's a Huriicane coming through

flahavaj

Bubs101 wrote: »

I am a massive fan of The Hurricane and thus Helms, but this topic must be fought with Head, not heart (after all, the topic ruled out ECW which I only found out after writing my heart-felt case for the MIZ!) and I'm pretty sure Helms doesn't want to be The Hurricane anymore. Shame though, if he did I'd urge the great yellow hope to STAND BACK, there's a Huriicane coming through

My case was made for the worker Gregory Helms. Be it as the Hurricane or otherwise the guy has been criminally held down. My argument is both well-thought out and heart felt, as rightly it should, so its a case if using heart AND head!:D

ShawnRaven

Bubs101 wrote: »

Which part of "an angle to get christian a recording contract with Tomko as his beatbox" did you take at face value. FFS VR!.

The whole f*cking lot, which is what the point of the topic is, if you can't be serious then you know where the door is! FFS!:P

Seriously, i'm out of this!, if clowns like this can't keep to the rules of it, then what's the point?

VR!

Bubs101

And which rule was this?

ShawnRaven

The host awards points for each response depending on how well argued their point is, not neccesarily if he agrees with their point but how well they back up their argument.

Not only did you stray away from the argument, but you made a complete mockery of it.
VR!

Bubs101

There's nothing about straying from an argument or using sarcasm to ridicule someone's point. I take it you have never seen the actual show

ShawnRaven

Bubs101 wrote: »

There's nothing about straying from an argument or using sarcasm to ridicule someone's point. I take it you have never seen the actual show

You'll be right there. I just took it from the original post that it was meant to be some sort of serious debate.

And right now, i'm captain freakin' serious!
VR!

Bubs101

Even in serious debates there's nothing wrong with sarcasm and if you persist in this complaining I will have to post a clip of christian rapping to show you that this was a joke

ShawnRaven

You don't have to dude, i've seen it
Christian: Tomko, gimme a beat!
Tomko: No!

VR!

Bounty Hunter

ATH:Round 2
Q. What would you book as the main event at this years Wrestlemania? and why would that be worthy of headlining WM?

---

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can we please avoid argueing about scores im only human and not opnipotent (unfortunatley) plus if i had to justify why people got different scores in each round it would turn into a mess plus there are another few rounds in which im sure you will all get contrasting scores in.

also remember the only rule i added at your behest

*okay you can only counter an arguement once, although you can counter as many different peoples arguements as much as you want (but only once each). if someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them plus someone else might continue to question it in your place.

i.e lets try to stick to the format (Bubs and VR in rd1)
__________________

callaway92

BATISTA vs EDGE....I think thats the whole package right there for huge main event...Edge never seems to make a mistake in a match so id say that...Batista will probably get the best reception by fans at Wrestlemania..And that will get the fans going...Edges entrance is good aswell...I just think it would be a perfect main event

Bubs101

Well, obviously the Main Event has to come from Raw as it's the main show with the most talent so that rules out Batista vs. Edge. Secondly, it'll probably have to be a traditional heel vs. face contest especially considering Micheals Cena wasn't so clear and it would be strange for Wrestlemania to have an unconventional (as in the line between the heal and the face) main event two years in a row. Also, the main event has to sell the PPV, which for me means that Cena has to be the face.

If Cena is in it that would rule Micheals out because I doubt it'd be a rematch of the last Wrestlemania. That would leave Orton, HHH and Kennedy as the big heels in the brand. Kennedy won't be in it as he seems to have wasted his chance with the drug suspension and injuring Cena in the first place. I don't think Orton will headline because I couldn't see him in the title picture for 6 months which leaves HHH. The obvious choice being an automatic sell and his sway with Vince will hardly count for nothing. The only problem being that he's a face now but he has been getting very close to Shawn without actually reforming D-X and we all know what happens there, vintage HHH betrayal.

HHH to go in as champ, Cena to go in as Rumble winner (If Cena's still injured it'l be Jericho(fingers crossed))

gimmick

The money main event for WM23 is Undertaker Vs Edge. Neither man has been pinned or submitted at Wrestlemania. Edge can say that he didn't lose Money In The bank last time out, as he just didn't win it. He went on to win it from Kennedy anyway.

So both men have a streak. There is history between them, as both were in The Corporate Ministry. There would be a major heel face dynamic going on as well. Both are more than capable of putting together a memorable WM main event which people would buy to see. There is the added animosity of how Edge took Takers title last may also. And, if memory serves, they have never faced off in a singles (or any?) match before.

how it happens is taker will take the title from Batista as i assume they will continue their fued at Survivor Series, Edge to win the Rumble not long after his return, and bingo.