Does anyone else feel that Mary Harney should resign immediately?

Suse

I really do think that in light of recent breat cancer blunders that Mary Harney should resign immediately. This is a NATIONAL disgrace :mad:

I am not directly affected by this situation but I am appalled by it and I am furious that these medical blunders are happening time and time again and NO ONE but NO ONE gets sacked!!!! It's time for the "job for life" security to be a thing of the past. The Dr that missread these recent scans is now on "admin duties" with full pay. This is an absolute outrage and cannot be tolerated any longer. I'm looking forward to Liveline today!!!

Mary Harney is contstanly blaming the head of the HSE for everything that goes wrong, she recently said that the electrical staff needed to "cop on". This woman has caused so much trouble and chaos within the HSE and has done nothing to improve or streamline it.

The Susie Long story is just sad. Very very sad and a poor reflection on us all.

I really thing now is the time to really really shake things up and GET RID OF HARNEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thebman

In fairness, I think Harney has done a good bit to help the health service, its just that she isn't willing to completely over haul.

She went in with good intentions and tried to make changes initially but was met with resistence from the service.

After a while, motivation goes away and it is time she left the job as she isn't motivated enough to make the changes that now need to be made.

Just my take on it although I don't follow the health service too much because its an invitation to depression and I think we can all agree that the health service does't couldn't help me out of that depression so for my own good, I don't pay much attention to it.

Lol at the logic that a minister is responsible for the incompetence of an individual radiographer.

In order for that to even begin to be the case we'd have to send Harney to med school for a few years and then have her stand over every operating table at every operation.
If I was about to be put under anastethic and the last thing I saw before going under was Mary Harney,I'd probably die of shock.

cavedave

I really do think that in light of recent breat cancer blunders that Mary Harney should resign immediately.

What breast cancer blunders? By that I mean what was the false negative rate in Portlaoise. Similarly what was the false positive rate.
Unless we know the Irish, international and Portlaoise FP and FN rates we might as well be running round screaming "the sky is falling" as that is as likely to help the situation as sacking people.

*edit actually it is fairly obvious the system in Portlaoise did not use the sorts of randomised trial techniques that would easily discover a faulty test (or in this case tester). But saying "harney should go because some cancers were missed" is easier and less accurate then "we need proper randomised testing of all medical procedures and a medical staff and public that can understand the statistics that would result"

Colonel Sanders

Tristrame wrote: »

Lol at the logic that a minister is responsible for the incompetence of an individual radiographer.

I don't think the Op was saying this, he seems disgusted that their is so little accountability with the health service (as is the case throughout the entire public sector).

orestes

How can we blame Harney for cancer test results being wrong? Just because she is top of the pile doesn't mean we can blame the screw up of every person working beneath her on her personally.

My mother had a problem with her throat a few years back and kept going to the local hospital where they kept telling her it was fine. After a while she felt like she wanted a second opinion, went to another hospital for a check-up and was told after her first check up that she had throat cancer. She's fine, totally recovered and all, but I can't really see how the first place screwing up is Harney's or anyone else's fault besides their own.

Don't get me wrong I fckuing hate Harney myself, but we can only blame her for stuff that is her own fault

Jackie laughlin

Mary Harney and the FF side of the govt. very recently faced election. They made their neo-liberal approach to health care plain and they won.

Mary Harney created the HSE and appointed managers who agreed with her political perspective to create a health service more akin to the US model than the European model.

This policy approach to health is uncaring and grossly inefficient. It shouldn't be tolerated.

However, the mistakes or incompetence (a verdict is awaited) in cancer screening has absolutely nothing to do with either Harney or Drumm.

Padraig Mor

No. I think Harney seems to be the only politician with the balls to try and tackle the health service, even if she seems to have lost her way a bit recently. The health service is in the state it is becuse there are too many vested interests only looking out for themselves. Doctors, nurses, pharmacists, managers, electricians, the whole lot of them. All out for themselves and themselves only, with hardly a care for the patient.

Harney tries to reform the service for the good and what happens? People call for her head! FF hamstring her. I'm surprised she hasn't said "**** this" and retired by now! Next time you're ranting about Harney, spare a thought for the consultant on €400K+ per year, the nurse getting well paid to sit on her arse in the ward office for her cushy half time job, the pharmacist collecting extortionate 'prescriptions fees' etc.

OT: am I the only one disgusted by the *constant* abuse Harney receives on Boards about her figure? Maybe she ahs a medical condition?

spank_inferno

Mary Harney wanted the health portfolio as McDowell wanted the justice ministry. Both wanted to shake it up and reform.

The Irish public by and large feel the health service is in need of reform.
Yet whenever any reform is mooted the self-serving unions of the health service jump all over it until all drive to reform is crushed.

There is no point blaming the minister when things go awry in one area or another. She is not responsible for these things. Such things are up to local hospital management to deal with, change and if need be dicipline staff.
She is doing a better job than any minister for health I can remember.

LostinBlanch

Tristrame wrote: »

Lol at the logic that a minister is responsible for the incompetence of an individual radiographer.

LOL @ the logic that Mary Harney takes responsibility for anything. She passes the buck to the monstrosity that is the HSE at every opportunity.

LostinBlanch

LostinBlanch wrote: »

LOL @ the logic that Mary Harney takes responsibility for anything. She passes the buck to the monstrosity that is the HSE at every opportunity.

And that adresses the point I made about the op's question how exactly?

So Are you saying that if your son or daughter doesnt get enough points in their leaving to do medicine, that the minister of education should resign?
Do you understand logic at all?

ednwireland

yes but i live in donegal where the gov thinks the best healthcare policy is to not provide any treatment centres and let us die in our beds (if you can get one) - draw a line from galway to drogheda and look for the care centres
what has annoyed me is that the hse was supposed to rationalise the management structure and all it has done is create massive layers of more management for this harney is directly responsible and should go just for her inability to sort that out, never mind not managing budgets until the end of the year. if i get ill i'll make sure its in the first half of the year

Mr.Micro

Health is the poisoned chalice ministry to have .No I dont think she should go.Its the Health system and the Doctor superiority attitude over technical expertise that is a major problem .Doctors do not always know best .Its atough job and MH is at least the best at present to do it.

ednwireland

ednwireland wrote:

yes but i live in donegal where the gov thinks the best healthcare policy is to not provide any treatment centres and let us die in our beds (if you can get one) - draw a line from galway to drogheda and look for the care centres
what has annoyed me is that the hse was supposed to rationalise the management structure and all it has done is create massive layers of more management for this harney is directly responsible and should go just for her inability to sort that out, never mind not managing budgets until the end of the year. if i get ill i'll make sure its in the first half of the year

Am I right in thinking that you think that Every county should have state of the art health facilities/specialists based locally rather than one for every 3 counties or so?
Do you think thats financially practical in a small country?

Moriarty

Everyone's an expert, eh?

I've no real idea whether mary harney is right for the job or not. I certainly don't know enough about the health service to come to a decision about that myself. It's obvious that it doesn't work very well in a lot of cases, but it's not obvious where the fault for that lies or how it should be fixed. A couple of points though:

- I see a lot of commentry decrying the HSE as a bumbling waste of money filled with incompetents but very little proof to back that up. It would seem to me to be the right direction to go down, removing (or at least reducing) political meddling in professional decisions. What would the opponents suggest in its place or to improve it?

- Can anyone point to decisions that Mary Harney has made which was wrong for the health service? Decisions based around the political theory behind a health service aren't valid here - she has been reelected along with FF which has endorsed her political view of the health service in that sense.

ateam

The problems in the health service would still be the same even if Mary Harney was there. If she resigned people would be saying she was a great minister.

She's trying to bring about change in the health service, some people don't like change.

Mr.Micro

Moriarty wrote: »

Everyone's an expert, eh?

- I see a lot of commentry decrying the HSE as a bumbling waste of money filled with incompetents but very little proof to back that up. It would seem to me to be the right direction to go down, removing (or at least reducing) political meddling in professional decisions. What would the opponents suggest in its place or to improve it?Quote MORIARTY

The only evidence with regard to HSE is that all its budget was spent .Now who does it employ as managers and what accountants ? Fire them now.

John_C

I don't have any inside knowledge so I could be wrong but has Harney not been trying to get the small cancer centers closed down so as the work would be done by the specialised (amd presumable more competent) staff in the big hospitals?

John_C

Mr.Micro wrote: »

The only evidence with regard to HSE is that all its budget was spent .Now who does it employ as managers and what accountants ? Fire them now.

I don't know much else but you couldn't do that, the unions wouldn't allow it.

prendy

the problems in the health service is the unions who continually refuse to support the changes that need to be implemented.
Blaming Harney(the only one who actually wanted the job)is crazy.
if they introduce a change in practice tommorow they will be shot down by these unions.

Moriarty

Mr.Micro wrote: »

The only evidence with regard to HSE is that all its budget was spent .Now who does it employ as managers and what accountants ? Fire them now.

Ok. So what was the money spent on? Capital costs? Staff? Was it necessary to overspend for some reason? Were there unforseen costs? Was the budget enough to cover services in the first place?

LostinBlanch

Tristrame wrote: »

So Are you saying that if your son or daughter doesnt get enough points in their leaving to do medicine, that the minister of education should resign?

Nice try at misrepresentation there. Keep on building your straw men.

I stated that Harney passes the buck at every opportunity.
Since the cack handed creation of the HSE she has accepted responsibility for absolutely nothing (except cashing her paycheques I'm sure).

Then she can't even say that the HSE is more efficient than the Health boards system. . The main given reason for it's formation. Instead she has abdicated all control of the Health Service to the HSE which has no political accountability. Which is I believe, the only reason why it was created i.e. to insulate her from having to take responsibility for any problems in the health service.

As has been asked in the Dail exactly what is she getting paid for?

I think that the OP was being very naive in asking would she resign, when the fact is that no minister in the last 10 years has resigned as a result of sheer incompetence (or lack of will to do the job as brim4brim has indicated). Ministers in Berties Govt don't do resignations unless they are of the Ray Burke variety or unless they get their houses painted free of charge.

DublinWriter

As much as I loathe the PD's, I think Harney's track record of grasping the nettle is a pretty good one, considering how most ministers folded in the face of pressure from self-interest groups such as the VFI and the IPA.

Harney tackled the taxi unions very effectively and was also responsible for our current smog-free atmosphere in Dublin.

However, with the Heath Service, she's bitten off more than she, or anyone could chew (no pun, etc).

The current health service is a basket case. Too many unsackable paper-pushers. Currently 100,000 civil servants are employed by the HSE just doing admin work for a population the size of Birmingham.

My argument was always to release between 10,000 and 20,000 of the clerical grade civil-servants within the HSE and put them under the Department of Justice to work in an Garda Siochana in Divisional and District offices and even in Stations.

We have a raft of stations around the country going unmanned and Divisional and District offices up to their ears in admin and paper-work. Such additional civilian clerical resources would free up more members for regular patrol work.

Why not go the whole hog and do what the London Met do and put such civilian support staff who work on the front desk/public office in a police-like uniform?

This two-birds/one-stone solution will never happen because of the silo-nature of the public service here where each particular department of the public service is lorded over like a fiefdom by it's chief minister and size means all.

LostinBlanch

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Nice try at misrepresentation there. Keep on building your straw men.

Hmmm what straw men would those be?
I'll suggest that you are the the "lostinBlanch" pot calling the Mary Harney Kettle Black given that you avoid questions you don't like.
Now tell me,how is Mary Harney or the HSE the cause of an individual doctors mistakes?

I stated that Harney passes the buck at every opportunity.
Since the cack handed creation of the HSE she has accepted responsibility for absolutely nothing (except cashing her paycheques I'm sure).

I'll direct you to Morriarty's direct question and answer session there as it seems all you want to do is exchange soundbytes rather than deal in specefics.

Then she can't even say that the HSE is more efficient than the Health boards system. . The main given reason for it's formation. Instead she has abdicated all control of the Health Service to the HSE which has no political accountability. Which is I believe, the only reason why it was created i.e. to insulate her from having to take responsibility for any problems in the health service.

What do you mean by no political accountability.
The HSE is the management responsible for the day to day running of the service,the department of health is the board of directors with the minister being chairperson.
Ultimately the minister and the government can take any sanction on the health service executive should they see fit.

As has been asked in the Dail exactly what is she getting paid for?

As above.

I think that the OP was being very naive in asking would she resign, when the fact is that no minister in the last 10 years has resigned as a result of sheer incompetence (or lack of will to do the job as brim4brim has indicated). Ministers in Berties Govt don't do resignations unless they are of the Ray Burke variety or unless they get their houses painted free of charge.

Read the thread title properly,the OP asked should she resign not would...
As regards your mini little irrelevant rant there about house painting,I suggest it exposes the real reason for your angst here and thats the need to get across anti Harney soundbytes without actually discussing any substance behind them...
I'll give you a tip.
If you're going to say something,at least make a bit of an effort at making your case ie include some substance.

spank_inferno

DublinWriter wrote: »

As much as I loathe the PD's, I think Harney's track record of grasping the nettle is a pretty good one, considering how most ministers folded in the face of pressure from self-interest groups such as the VFI and the IPA.

Harney tackled the taxi unions very effectively and was also responsible for our current smog-free atmosphere in Dublin.

However, with the Heath Service, she's bitten off more than she, or anyone could chew (no pun, etc).

The current health service is a basket case. Too many unsackable paper-pushers. Currently 100,000 civil servants are employed by the HSE just doing admin work for a population the size of Birmingham.

My argument was always to release between 10,000 and 20,000 of the clerical grade civil-servants within the HSE and put them under the Department of Justice to work in an Garda Siochana in Divisional and District offices and even in Stations.

We have a raft of stations around the country going unmanned and Divisional and District offices up to their ears in admin and paper-work. Such additional civilian clerical resources would free up more members for regular patrol work.

Why not go the whole hog and do what the London Met do and put such civilian support staff who work on the front desk/public office in a police-like uniform?

This two-birds/one-stone solution will never happen because of the silo-nature of the public service here where each particular department of the public service is lorded over like a fiefdom by it's chief minister and size means all.

I think thats a fantastic idea. (though it would be very hard to implement)
Think of it the gardai who moan that they dont have enough resources to police the state could devote their full time to tackling crime by reallocating existing staff resources from 1 dept to another.

Mr.Micro

Moriarty wrote: »

Ok. So what was the money spent on? Capital costs? Staff? Was it necessary to overspend for some reason? Were there unforseen costs? Was the budget enough to cover services in the first place?

I accept that health costs are a rolling budget ,but proper managers and accountants would plan and factor in costs and projections and not go over budget by such a huge figure . Its the management not knowing the cost of things or the value of a service or paying too much .In a business they would be fired .

Moriarty

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I accept that health costs are a rolling budget ,but proper managers and accountants would plan and factor in costs and projections and not go over budget by such a huge figure . Its the management not knowing the cost of things or the value of a service or paying too much

Do you know that or are you assuming? I certainly haven't seen that proven in any hard and fast way. I haven't even seen how the costs broke down, or any projections from the start of the year of how they expected things to go. All I've seen reported is that they've "run out of money" or "over budget by €xxx million" - which I'm presuming is quite different to what it would mean if you or I "ran out of money" for the year in September/October.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

In a business they would be fired .

The health service wouldn't exist if it was run as a business. A business wouldn't be facing the challenges that the HSE/DoH&C face at the moment. Attempting to run it purely or primarily as a business after the decades of neglect and mismanagement it has suffered would be absurd.

leninbenjamin

in fairness anyone who thinks the Health service would be in any better shape than it is under different management isn't taking a rational view of things. Enda and the coalition for change offered no real alternative. 500 more bed and some bull**** about make it better but in fairness i never saw a properly costed or plan that went into any detail about how they'd sort the current mess out. I was very disappointed in this too, as i thought sorting out the Health service would have been a real leader for them seeing as they talked about how they'd sort out the services so much.

in my own limited enough experiences with our health service, and i'm going out on a limb here... the only people i've ever been able to find fault with in the hospitals has been the consultants, that and a lack of physical capital that contribute to a somewhat slow patient turnaround. the last thing i'd like to say is that in the last few occasions i've been there i've found quite a number of improvements within the service... except for, and no prizes for guessing, when the consultants are involved. And then to think they oppose any attempt by Harney to increase their numbers...

moe_sizlak

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

Mary Harney and the FF side of the govt. very recently faced election. They made their neo-liberal approach to health care plain and they won.

Mary Harney created the HSE and appointed managers who agreed with her political perspective to create a health service more akin to the US model than the European model.

This policy approach to health is uncaring and grossly inefficient. It shouldn't be tolerated.

However, the mistakes or incompetence (a verdict is awaited) in cancer screening has absolutely nothing to do with either Harney or Drumm.

how anyone can say that our health care system is an american style one is beyond me , no one ever gets sacked in out health care system , no matter how many surplus pen pushers and administrators we have in our health service , there is never a cull like there should be , the reason for this of course is that we have a taoiseach who is completley slavish to the unions and will not make any hard descision for fear of alienating a single sector of the electorate for fear of loosing votes

in an american style business model , surplus to requirments are culled , again i say , how can our health service be in any way americanised

gilroyb

Harney has spent the last ten years encouraging that hospitals be run on a centre of excellence model. People all over the country complained that they didn't want that, they wanted a 'one stop shop' local hospital.

Harney eventually accepted that she is the peoples representative and so should try and make other changes if the people (and Ahern) weren't going to support then. She's moved on to try and fix some of the many other problems in the health service.

Turns out that without the changes she encouraged, incorrect diagnoses were made, one of the very things she warned against.

This policy approach to health is uncaring and grossly inefficient. It shouldn't be tolerated.

This is entirely incorrect. You may not want to accept this, but Harney is doing what she thinks is best for the health of the people in this country. She wants to make real change because it will improve things, not just make superficial changes that will make people think they've done something good but have actually put peoples lives in danger.

People feel cozy thinking they've secured the local hospital down the road, but they'd actually be healthier if they were being treated in an institution with the required depth of knowledge to ensure as accurate a diagnosis as possible.

Of all the issues she's been called to resign over, asking her to resign because what she said would happen did happen is a fairly strange thing to do.

moe_sizlak

prendy wrote: »

the problems in the health service is the unions who continually refuse to support the changes that need to be implemented.
Blaming Harney(the only one who actually wanted the job)is crazy.
if they introduce a change in practice tommorow they will be shot down by these unions.

and we all know that the most powerfull man in ireland is and has always been santa claus to the unions

btw , while i dont include nurses in the same category as other public servant wasters , they are the highest paid in europe , our florence nightengales