Does anyone else feel that Mary Harney should resign immediately?

Mighty_Mouse

I really thing now is the time to really really shake things up and GET RID OF HARNEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I actually think that if there was a national election on who should be appointed Minister for Health; Mary Harney would win.

It really is an impossible job. Give the woman time. The fact that she has made any progress at all is amazin.

The PD's have absolutely nothing to lose this time around & thats exactly the type of person I would chose to tackle health.

sovtek

Tristrame wrote: »

Ten years ago was 1997 not 1887.
I can tell you that most lumps wherever they are found in a scenario where cancer is suspected need lab analysis so minor surgery aka a biopsy in this case was always needed.
They can do blood tests also.

The experts disagree with you. They told them that without up-to-date machines what has happened would happen.

None of these have anything to do with the machines used for scanning other than the results of the scan may lead to the need for the biopsy.
Akrasia didn't post a link to any article that I see on this thread.I presume you must mean his quoting of my post that contained the RTÉ report ?
That says nothing other than report what we already take as a given that consultants want new machinery.

Radiology consultants at that (aka experts) and they predicted exactly what transpired if they didn't get it.

They made no case for it though other than a ridiculous one that the older perfectly working machinery could lead to a mis diagnosis.

It seems self evident that up to date technology is going to be more accurate.

The problem with that though and it's a big problem is that it could also be inferred from it that some consultants today are either getting slipshod in their work because either (a) they are less competent than they used be or (b) that they are less well trained...

on out of date technology. As far as I know the person in question was a Saffa. They may have been trained on an up to date system rather than one that was antiquated.

None of that logic will help me in my bid to save my job as I'm late every day because my boss didn't accede to my request for a ferrari and neither does it go anyway towards implicating a minister for an indicidual doctors incompetence.

It's not incompetence if the equipment is antiquated.

Granted, you might have some case if the report comes back (it's due in a month) to say the machines were faulty/old and gone hard to use or something.

They don't have to be faulty to get false negatives...exactly as the experts told the HSE.

sovtek

sovtek wrote: »

The experts disagree with you. They told them that without up-to-date machines what has happened would happen.

you mean the people operating the machines -there was only one consultant at that hospital so it would appear that the "experts" plural disagree'ing with me is actually "expert" singular and it would appear also that said "expert" has been put on leave by the hospital since this came to light.

Radiology consultants at that (aka experts) and they predicted exactly what transpired if they didn't get it.

Singular-not "they".

It seems self evident that up to date technology is going to be more accurate.

Perhaps but the onus on doubt regarding the patient is up to the consultant.

on out of date technology. As far as I know the person in question was a Saffa. They may have been trained on an up to date system rather than one that was antiquated.

This we don't know.

It's not incompetence if the equipment is antiquated.

I'd actually rather not consider it incompetence at all but would see it as a mistake made.
It's up to the hospital authorities once they have seen the independent report to determine whether it was incompetence or not or just a genuine error.
Personally if I had 7 or more cases by one particular consultant mis diagnosed,I would be worried about see'ing that particular doctor.I'd be looking for a 2nd opinion.

They don't have to be faulty to get false negatives...exactly as the experts told the HSE.

"expert" without the "s" sovtek.
If it's just the consultant involved that is worried about not being able to diagnose properly from machines that other consultants are,then you are looking at an issue of competency.
It's the consultant thats responsible for the diagnosis and not the nurse,the junior doctor or the electrician that puts the plug on the machine.

sovtek

Tristrame wrote: »

you mean the people operating the machines -there was only one consultant at that hospital so it would appear that the "experts" plural disagree'ing with me is actually "expert" singular and it would appear also that said "expert" has been put on leave by the hospital since this came to light.
Singular-not "they".
Perhaps but the onus on doubt regarding the patient is up to the consultant.
This we don't know.
I'd actually rather not consider it incompetence at all but would see it as a mistake made.
It's up to the hospital authorities once they have seen the independent report to determine whether it was incompetence or not or just a genuine error.
Personally if I had 7 or more cases by one particular consultant mis diagnosed,I would be worried about see'ing that particular doctor.I'd be looking for a 2nd opinion.
"expert" without the "s" sovtek.
If it's just the consultant involved that is worried about not being able to diagnose properly from machines that other consultants are,then you are looking at an issue of competency.
It's the consultant thats responsible for the diagnosis and not the nurse,the junior doctor or the electrician that puts the plug on the machine.

It states the "radiology department" at Midlands. If you know specifically that there is only one radiologist there...then fair enough I'll take your word for it. At the same time that person warned that up to date equipment was needed or the inevitable would happen...and it did. You can't term that a "ridiculous" request or say that this person is singularly incompetent.
Now that other "centres of excellence" are reporting mis-diagnosis would suggest that it's a systematic problem. It's also not like this is the only major **** up with the health system and it's very arrogant for Bertie et al to blame consultants off the bat.

ninty9er

In response to the original thread title, should the health minister not be substituted for the HSE staff CAUSING the problem...

Mary Harney gets nothing but stick and she takes it, because she is responsible for the health service, singular, not the actions of each individual staff member, plural...sure yer man Paolo Di Nascimento murdered a staff member at a hotel...he's Portuguese...let's sack the Portuguese foreign minister...ridiculous.

sovtek

sovtek wrote: »

It states the "radiology department" at Midlands. If you know specifically that there is only one radiologist there...then fair enough I'll take your word for it.

It was mentioned on the news quite a few times.

At the same time that person warned that up to date equipment was needed or the inevitable would happen...and it did. You can't term that a "ridiculous" request or say that this person is singularly incompetent.

The inquiry might but then it has a lot more information at it's disposal than you or I.

Now that other "centres of excellence" are reporting mis-diagnosis would suggest that it's a systematic problem. It's also not like this is the only major **** up with the health system and it's very arrogant for Bertie et al to blame consultants off the bat.

I don't know about that,wasn't the Barringtons incident related to biopsys that weren't examined properly by an individual doctor and nothing whatsoever to do with the mamogram machine.

As regards your "centres of excelence" comment,these are only in the process of being organised and set up.We know where they are going to be but we can't retrospectively refer to them as having the standards that are to be attained at the centres once they have that title.
They don't as yet.Ergo pointing out that there *may* (as yet unconfirmed) have been diagnosis errors at any one of the proposed new centres is a by the by.
Morally of course any hospital whether it has been earmarked as one of those or not and hasn't got a bad record at diagnosis deserves the "excelence" title per sé.
Thing is though those hospitals not earmarked for this will lose that service.
Some may disagree with that notion but to my mind it makes perfect sense to have 3 or 4 specialists located in one place than have them scattered all over the place.
Second and third opinion wise and diagnosis consensus wise it's safer in my opinion.
At least thats whats being seen to be done and soon so I'll reserve judgement on the success of it after a year or two.

By the way sovtek I have made a bit of an effort here to say why I think X,Y,and Z.If you intend to go back to the "but but but the machines are out of date position" solely I won't be engaging with you anymore as my only comments on that have already been said and stand as far as I'm concerned.
They're not infallable of course and neither are yours.

professore

Tristrame wrote: »

Rubbish Incompetent doctors do their incompetent things from time to time without telling the minister that they are incompetent first.
It's when they do the incompetent things that they are found to be incompetent not before.
Tell that to the unions whose strangle hold on a bloated management structure eats up too much of the funding.
While you are at it,try and persuade the electorate that they will have to pay higher taxes to properly fund a less bloated service.
We've pretty much as relatively bad a health system as in the UK tbh with some remarkable exceptions and don't tell me Harney controls there.
This country is at the pin of it's collar to play catch up in terms of infrastructure as it's only really been rich in the last 10 years or so.The UK on the other hand has been one of the top five biggest economies in the world already during that time and they are struggling with their service.
I do appreciate of course that this is a difficult concept for you to accept given your own world view .
Thats understandable.

Our health service is MUCH WORSE than the NHS. Ask any woman who has had a baby in both jurisdictions to cite one example.

Mr.Micro

I have to say that people can blame Prof.Drumm and M.Harney all they like but there are a lot of incompetent staff left over from the old health boards who are now part of the HSE.These people are medical staff all levels and managers who stlll have the cottage hospital mentality .They are not up to it and need to be replaced .

moe_sizlak

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I have to say that people can blame Prof.Drumm and M.Harney all they like but there are a lot of incompetent staff left over from the old health boards who are now part of the HSE.These people are medical staff all levels and managers who stlll have the cottage hospital mentality .They are not up to it and need to be replaced .

try replacing them and see the unions make the call to there great friend bertie

UrbanFox

To answer the OP's question - no.

BTW I have no time past or present for the PDs. Their extinction would be a source of great personal indifference.

Fact 1. Harney is one minister in a government. They all know what the priorities are. The present position is the collective responsibility of the entire government.

Fact 2. The Irish healthcare system has been in the control of FF, FG, Labour, PD and GP by turn and turn over many years back. They are all responsible for the present scenario which is a national disgrace and embarrassment.

BTW I wish that we had the Californian system of recall elections which disposed of Gray Davis (Sp?) and brought in Arnie. In that event we would not have to worry about Harney resigning as they could all be thrown out - collectively and individually.

juuge

Mary Harney is not in charge of the health service, the department of health is. They will run it which ever way they see fit irrespective of who the minister is, and will do so until such time as a minister is appointed who has guts, political will, and a sense of national pride. Don't hold your breath.

Hotblack Desiato

juuge wrote: »

Mary Harney is not in charge of the health service, the department of health is. They will run it which ever way they see fit irrespective of who the minister is, and will do so until such time as a minister is appointed who has guts, political will, and a sense of national pride. Don't hold your breath.

Huh? Harney abolished the ridiculous health board system - something which was talked about for years but nobody had the balls to do - and is taking on the consultants who are one of the most firmly entrenched vested interests in the country. Reality check please.

Mr.Micro

ninja900 wrote: »

Huh? Harney abolished the ridiculous health board system - something which was talked about for years but nobody had the balls to do - and is taking on the consultants who are one of the most firmly entrenched vested interests in the country. Reality check please.

The consultants have too much power .Some have the luxury of seeing private patients in a public hospital 2 to 3 days a week in some cases and public patients 1 to 2 days a week, and still be paid a full salary. Its not right .I know that is one of the issues that is to be addressed .A full audit would sort out who does what once and for all and get rid of the lag from the old health board system.

walshb

I could be wrong here but does anyone else feel that Drumm who is fundamentally a doctor and a medicine man, should NOT be the person leading the health service. The health service needs a leader, a business leader, a management leader, an entrepreneur, a Willie Walshe or a Michael O'Leary type figure to shake it up and get things done. These are the types of
people that the government should be scouting for. The Health service is a massive bureaucratic mess that needs some firm and responsible leadership....

Drumm IMO does not have that capability, backround or experience...
I think he could be simply too 'nice'.....

He may be great medically and may be an asset, but we need a born leader

Mr.Micro

Drumm IMO does not have that capability, backround or experience...
I think he could be simply too 'nice'.....QUOTE

His medical knowledge is an asset as he will know what it takes as too often business managers do not have the med knowledge and do not know the value of a service. on the other hand he may not be cut throat enough to negotiate in a business environment.Best to be both medical and tough.

walshb

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Drumm IMO does not have that capability, backround or experience...
I think he could be simply too 'nice'.....QUOTE

His medical knowledge is an asset as he will know what it takes as too often business managers do not have the med knowledge and do not know the value of a service. on the other hand he may not be cut throat enough to negotiate in a business environment.Best to be both medical and tough.

Without a doubt it would be best to have talent in both areas, but I think the service needs as you say, a cut throat pure leader. A mover and a shaker so to speak and any med knowledge needed, he/she will GET it and use it and whatever else they attain to make this health service WORK....

Hotblack Desiato

walshb wrote: »

The health service needs a leader, a business leader, a management leader, an entrepreneur, a Willie Walshe or a Michael O'Leary type figure to shake it up and get things done.

I think that idea is potentially a good one. But if it does happen, the people who bleat about 'the government is privatising the health service by stealth' will have a field day... It doesn't, or shouldn't, matter a damn to the patient whether we structure our health service on the British or French or German or Swiss model, so long as they get the treatment they need when they need it. From the taxpayer's point of view, we simply cannot afford to continue to pour ever increasing sums of money into the broken model we have had up to now.

jmayo

ninja900 wrote: »

Huh? Harney abolished the ridiculous health board system - something which was talked about for years but nobody had the balls to do - and is taking on the consultants who are one of the most firmly entrenched vested interests in the country. Reality check please.

Actually did she abolish anything of significance ?
Yeah the Health Board made up of your local Co. councillors etc that met every so often and claimed their nice expenses were done away with but not much else.
The Health Board buearacy remained in place, with another layer being added on top i.e. the HSE HQ.

What has that achieved ? Sod all would be my answer.

Yes bertie baffoon and the FF/PDs have hugely increased spending on the health service over the last 10 years, but where has it been spent?

How many extra administrators have been added to the already over admined system ?

Harney has belatedly taken on the Consultants but not much else.

The PD ethos, and now the FF and the sold out greens ethos, is go the American route and have a private system in tandem with a depleted public system.
If you can pay for private health insurance you go straight to private hospital but if your are public you will probably end up there as well.
Our private hospitals will be propted up by the public system sending patients that they cannot cope with because of lack of resources at the coal face.

And who will benefit from this ?
The investors in these tax haven private hospitals are the ones that will really benefit from these plans.
The tax payers will not benefit becuase we will still be propping up an inefficient health care system buearacy, where the nurses/doctors are unable to cope and the patients are ultimately being transferred across to the private sector.

Can somebody please tell me how three private healhcare institutions in Waterford can make a profit?

The only way that the Irish health system can function is if there is an all party consensus not to play politics with it.
Can't ever see that happening :rolleyes:

Then the public service unions need to be taken on and the admin staff decimated, HSE areas need to be amalgamated not more created.
We are 4 odd million not China FFS.
The consultants need to be taken on and forced to work like all their counterparts across the world. No more 5 day weeks and not this cra* of public/private work. You work in one or other.

Before there is any cra* about centres of excellence (who thought up the f***ing name) and particularly centralisation of A&E services there needs to be an emergency medical transport infrastructure in place i.e. a full medivac service in each province with multiple fully medical equiped helicopters and the trained staff to man them.
And the air corp should have sod all to do with it.

Just my tuppence worth from somebody who has experienced our health care system both as provider and client.

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote: »

Lol at the logic that a minister is responsible for the incompetence of an individual radiographer.

In order for that to even begin to be the case we'd have to send Harney to med school for a few years and then have her stand over every operating table at every operation.
If I was about to be put under anastethic and the last thing I saw before going under was Mary Harney,I'd probably die of shock.

Are you still loling? Hundreds of cases in hospitals and labs all around the country are popping up, Like I said weeks ago, it it was not the fault of one scapegoat, it is a systemic failure and Hearny is responsible for running the health service.

Mr.Micro

Akrasia wrote: »

Are you still loling? Hundreds of cases in hospitals and labs all around the country are popping up, Like I said weeks ago, it it was not the fault of one scapegoat, it is a systemic failure and Hearny is responsible for running the health service.

I think it is down to poor staff training and incompetence ,organization etc.utter complacency ,sloppiness etc.As the population increases the staff are still stuck in sleepy Ireland thinking ah sure it does not matter.We should get real start with properly trained staff at all medical levels ,as it is cervical smears are sent to the US to be checked .Why ?Do we have any good medical staff in Ireland ?

finkaboutit555

Akrasia wrote: »

Are you still loling? Hundreds of cases in hospitals and labs all around the country are popping up, Like I said weeks ago, it it was not the fault of one scapegoat, it is a systemic failure and Hearny is responsible for running the health service.

How came Mary Harney be blamed for the incompetence of others???
Surely It is the Hospital Managers Fault for not keeping an eye on things.

In my View. There is far too many Pen Pushers in the Health Service Who Don't know exactly what it is they do in the service..
I know for a fact that there is a lot of prople who were brought in on temp contracts,when they ran out... The people stayed on and now they cant be gotten rid off..
Also I'd bring Back Hospital Matrons..
One Figure of Authority..

walshb

Of course Harney cannot be directly responsible for every action taken by every member of the HSE, but she as the head of the department must be accountable should the department dissipate into total chaos and total inefficiency, which seems to be the case now.

The buck STOPS with her. It's on her watch and she should resign or be sacked, because I think it's simply taking the piss at this stage. Let's have some firmness and some
real leadership. Harney has had several years to at least try to make a difference, and all that's happened is that the HSE has gone from bad to worse....

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote: »

Are you still loling? Hundreds of cases in hospitals and labs all around the country are popping up, Like I said weeks ago, it it was not the fault of one scapegoat, it is a systemic failure and Hearny is responsible for running the health service.

Actually the lass from the HSE said on the last word that they were calling in the ultrasound patients now so as to be sure and as a standard safeguard given what happened at that hospital with the mamograms.
97 out of over 568 will have to be seen just to be sure as a full rediagnosis couldn't be concluded from just the case notes.

They could have of course waited for 5 or 6 of them to present symtoms later or maybe none at all would but really....

The 98 and the 568 are all portlaoise cases and all under the DR that is on leave.
Are you using exaggeration again for effect akrasia or where exactly are new cases popping up all over the country??
You could at least be factual about this.

gandalf

Haven't had a chance to read through this thread but yes at this stage Mary Harney should resign. She is supposed to be over the Health service and as such I would assume she has to take responsibility for the absolute disgrace that has unfolded here.

The problem is with this government there is no responsibility at all. But they will all accept their pay rises of course. (you should have seen the extremely weak spun rubbish sent to be me by a government junior minister justifying the raise and why he wouldn't refuse it!).

juuge

Listening to Mary Harney this morning on the radio, I was amazed that according to Mary every doctor, specialist, professor, nurse,hse exectutive including the chairman were all outstanding, capable, emminent and of the highest possible standard. Why the hell then is there a problem?

gandalf

My god they are all suffering from "head in sand syndrome". Its another farce from the government except this time its going to cost some women their lives.

jimmysull

Haven't had a chance to read through all 6 pages of this thread but one point well worth noticing is that it has been very active a number of times in just 3 weeks. Surely a Health Service that has that many crises is a shambles.

They keep spinning out the same lines that there is more funding than ever before for the health service! Surely that is an even bigger indictment of the minister because it means that, on her watch, more and more money is being wasted than ever before (spending more on a worse service)
Of course she should resign! But she won't. The HSE was set up so that the minister can first blame them, then blame her department and never be to blame herself.

Apart from Ray Burke, who resigned because of blatant corruption, nobody has resigned in this country since Bertie took over. Don't expect Mary to be any different. If it was anywhere else, she'd be gone!

gandalf

gandalf wrote: »

Haven't had a chance to read through this thread but yes at this stage Mary Harney should resign. She is supposed to be over the Health service and as such I would assume she has to take responsibility for the absolute disgrace that has unfolded here.

I don't agree,for the reasons stated already on the thread..
The bulk of this problem is in one particular hospital and the responsibility of one particular team.
Changing the guard in the department of health would do absolutely nothing,you'd end up with just another FF minister reluctant to be there in the first place lazily plodding along awaiting the next reshuffle.
At least Harney actually wants to be there which tells me something about committment
I think at this stage if God was in charge of the health service,he'd have trouble reforming it,It's in such a shambles*

*please note that if you don't believe in God,then take the last bit above as a methaphor.

jimmysull

Tristrame wrote: »

At least Harney actually wants to be there which tells me something about committment

Commitment to the health of the people to whom she is responsible or commitment to the political survival of the PD's or commitment to the massive salary increase that she has awarded herself? Please clarify

gandalf

Sorry Con but this is not just about one hospital. The woman has had enough time to stamp her authority on the situation. She hasn't, it is a shambles. She has been found seriously lacking and she should stand down at this stage.

This is just the last of a long line of extreme failures on her and this governments watch. As you know I unfortunately have seen our health service in action because of illnesses to both my parents (one of whom didn't make it out of the filthy hospital they were in!).

At this stage it is clear that this pathetic mess is costing people their lives, not money, not time but their very lives.