Does anyone else feel that Mary Harney should resign immediately?

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote: »

Actually the lass from the HSE said on the last word that they were calling in the ultrasound patients now so as to be sure and as a standard safeguard given what happened at that hospital with the mamograms.
97 out of over 568 will have to be seen just to be sure as a full rediagnosis couldn't be concluded from just the case notes.

They could have of course waited for 5 or 6 of them to present symtoms later or maybe none at all would but really....

The 98 and the 568 are all portlaoise cases and all under the DR that is on leave.
Are you using exaggeration again for effect akrasia or where exactly are new cases popping up all over the country??
You could at least be factual about this.

This story was initially reported as the mistake of one consultant involving about a dozen people. Since then there have been cases in at least 2 other hospitals (cork and galway) and hundreds of women are being affected. The problems have also exposed numerous other serious flaws with the HSE, antiquated equipment, poor checks and balances, appalling mismanagement and lack of communication on pretty much every level, and apart from the initial scapegoat of the original consultant, nobody has faced any consequences.

Hearney wants to be paid like a CEO, but refuses to accept any of the responsibility. What does she do anyway other than make unpopular ideologically driven policy decisions and poorly implement them? (closing down hospital services without anything to replace them, She has consistently refused to do the single thing that would make an immediate concrete improvement to the health service, Increase the number of beds in the public health system, instead, she has been reducing bed capacity in many hospitals to make room for private hospitals (which may or may not be provided years from now)
Either she is incompetent, in which case she should be sacked, or she is being blocked and undermined by her cabinet and the taoiseach, in which case she should resign out of principle. (Bertie Ahern is the man who promised full job security for life to all of the administrators during the switch from health boards to the HSE)


Professor Drum gets paid vast sums of money and what has he achieved? (not necessarily his fault, he has been given no real power to make decisions, he can't hire or fire staff, he can't manage budgets, he can't make policy decisions... what does he do?

gandalf

gandalf wrote: »

but this is not just about one hospital. The woman has had enough time to stamp her authority on the situation. She hasn't, it is a shambles. She has been found seriously lacking and she should stand down at this stage.

I'd be of the opposite view.As was evidenced yesterday,her own department and the HSE mostly made up of old Health board officials don't tell her the situation.
I doubt they'd tell an FG or labour minister either.

This is just the last of a long line of extreme failures on her and this governments watch. As you know I unfortunately have seen our health service in action because of illnesses to both my parents (one of whom didn't make it out of the filthy hospital they were in!).

I'm aware of that but I don't see how sacking a minister will help that when it's the troops that are making the mistake.

At this stage it is clear that this pathetic mess is costing people their lives, not money, not time but their very lives.

It's unfortunate and I agree with you.
But tell me,how does changing a minister do the following (a) magically find out that a team in a hospital are in ept and (b)ensure that an apparently qualified team aren't inept.
Each mistake has to be made by a professional.

akrasia wrote:

This story was initially reported as the mistake of one consultant involving about a dozen people. Since then there have been cases in at least 2 other hospitals (cork and galway) and hundreds of women are being affected. The problems have also exposed numerous other serious flaws with the HSE, antiquated equipment, poor checks and balances, appalling mismanagement and lack of communication on pretty much every level, and apart from the initial scapegoat of the original consultant, nobody has faced any consequences.

All 568 (currently in the news) re examinations are the result of a lack of faith in the diagnosis of one team at one hospital.
Now tell me how are government ministers supposed to predict that?
Do you want them to go to Med school and as a new part of their job spec wait at each hospital overlooking every examination?

Hearney wants to be paid like a CEO, but refuses to accept any of the responsibility. What does she do anyway other than make unpopular ideologically driven policy decisions and poorly implement them? (closing down hospital services without anything to replace them, She has consistently refused to do the single thing that would make an immediate concrete improvement to the health service, Increase the number of beds in the public health system, instead, she has been reducing bed capacity in many hospitals to make room for private hospitals (which may or may not be provided years from now)

I like the word ideological there.
Very telling of you to use it.
Centres of excelence are not a bad idea and they aren't an ideological idea,they are a practical idea.

As for Harney,I'll judge her after maybe 5 years in office and not just 3 given the monumental task thats in front of her in terms of reform.

purple'n'gold

Actually, I think Bertie will sack her, he doesn’t really need her vote and the other PD will rejoin FF. (this will be sorted with him before hand). That way he will be seen to be doing something without really doing anything. He’s probably thinking along these lines now; the only slight problem will be who to replace her with? But that only a detail.

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote: »

I like the word ideological there.
Very telling of you to use it.
Centres of excelence are not a bad idea and they aren't an ideological idea,they are a practical idea.

Ideological refers to her love affair with private health care, and her starve the beast strategy to 'create a market' for private hospitals (just like strategy to starve public transport to make a case for private operators, and the strategy to increase ESB prices well above the increase in costs to attract 'competiton'

Centres of excellence are a good idea, for specialist services, but since when is A&E a specialist service?
And it is only common sense to provide new facilities before you close down existing services, and you maintain emergency services for the regions.

And you don't go all scitzophrenic and claim that we can't keep regional hospitals open because there isn't enough capacity to give the staff relevant experience, and then at the exact same time, propose building a large number of new Private hospitals that would only be accessable to 50% of the population. How does that make sense. Either there isn't the demand for local services, or there is, and if there isn't then there isn't the demand for privatised services either.

As for Harney,I'll judge her after maybe 5 years in office and not just 3 given the monumental task thats in front of her in terms of reform.

She isn't making any progress, her focus seems to be almost entirely on railroading through a U.S. style private health care system something that the vast majority of irish people as well as the health care experts oppose, the longer she stays, the more damage she will do.

Moriarty

Akrasia wrote: »

but since when is A&E a specialist service?

Stunning.

Akrasia

Moriarty wrote: »

Stunning.

What I meant was the stabilisation and triage part. A lot of what Accident and emergency departments do on a regular basis are pretty routine, trauma, stokes, cardiac arrest, drug overdoses, allergic reactions, and other common procedures that any medium sized department would get plenty of experience in dealing with. If they require specialist surgery or diagnosis, they could be stabilised and transferred to a more appropriate hospital.

Hearney's proposals include removing all emergency cover from hundreds of thousands of people and leaving them several hours away from life saving treatment. This has already resulted in numerous avoidable deaths.

gandalf

Tristrame wrote: »

I'd be of the opposite view.As was evidenced yesterday,her own department and the HSE mostly made up of old Health board officials don't tell her the situation.
I doubt they'd tell an FG or labour minister either.

After the lenght of time she has been in the position this should have been sorted. There needs to be a hell of alot of firing in the HSE and Dept of Health at this stage. The problem as I see it is this government are to blame guaranteeing the jobs of 1500 managers who didn't have positions when the Health Boards were dissolved.

I'm aware of that but I don't see how sacking a minister will help that when it's the troops that are making the mistake.

Its called taking responsibility. She's either in charge or not. If she's in charge then she should take responsibility and go. Of course I am not suggesting she should be the only one. People have obviously failed all along the chain and they should be dealt with as well.

InFront

Akrasia wrote: »

Centres of excellence are a good idea, for specialist services, but since when is A&E a specialist service?

I do understand what you mean, but it is a clinical speciality and you will (one would) receive a higher standard of treatment in an established A&E unit with greater staff, expertise, and equipment. I do agree with many of your opinions on the health service and Mary Harney's contribution to it, but you cannot claim that a patient involved in a road traffic accident and arriving at a small country hospital at 2.30am, headed up on a shift-work basis by a Geriatrics NCHD (for example) and rudimentary surgical facilities has the same chance of being stabilised and following through successfully into surgery or further care as someone arriving in for example, Beaumont or Tallaght with permanent, dedicated and fully trained Emergency professionals working round the clock.

On the other hand, I do agree that Harney has been given enough time with the health portfolio and that she is merely showing herself to be incompetant in this Department, failing to meet targets and enduring crisis after crisis with no leadership whatsoever. She should be put back in Enterprise where she would be of some use.

Dar

The problem as I see it is this government are to blame guaranteeing the jobs of 1500 managers who didn't have positions when the Health Boards were dissolved.

Welcome to the real world. The HSE reforms were already deeply unpopular with the bureaucracy. Axe 1,500 jobs on top of that and the the whole lot of them would have gone on strike. Reform takes time, especially considering the bureaucratic nightmare that is the irish health service.

Its called taking responsibility. She's either in charge or not. If she's in charge then she should take responsibility and go. Of course I am not suggesting she should be the only one. People have obviously failed all along the chain and they should be dealt with as well.

I doubt a long string of scapegoats will help dig us out of the hole we're in right now.

gandalf

gandalf wrote: »

After the lenght of time she has been in the position this should have been sorted. There needs to be a hell of alot of firing in the HSE and Dept of Health at this stage. The problem as I see it is this government are to blame guaranteeing the jobs of 1500 managers who didn't have positions when the Health Boards were dissolved.

I appreciate that and believe me,I've no love for the set up thats been allowed to fester for the last 20 years.
I would like to see what the outcome of this ministers reign would be though rather than cutting her off at the pass.
I don't see how another lazy FF/FG/Lab minister watching his/her back could behave any better.Theres too many vested interests living off the cash cow.

Its called taking responsibility. She's either in charge or not. If she's in charge then she should take responsibility and go. Of course I am not suggesting she should be the only one. People have obviously failed all along the chain and they should be dealt with as well.

The current furore over one teams malaise being kicked about as a political football won't do one iota in my opinion to resolve the situation.
If you ask me, the only people that would be smiling if Harney left over something she couldn't possibly have controlled ( A portlaoise doctors diagnosis ) would be the unions and the bloated management structure and it's back to square one because no ones going to touch them again.

Akrasia

Dar wrote: »

Welcome to the real world. The HSE reforms were already deeply unpopular with the bureaucracy. Axe 1,500 jobs on top of that and the the whole lot of them would have gone on strike. Reform takes time, especially considering the bureaucratic nightmare that is the irish health service.

Hearney had no qualms facing down strike action from nurses and consultants, but she has never ever pushed the administrators to anywhere near the same level as the front line staff.

When was the last time managers and administrators in the health service went on strike? I certainly can't remember, and they didn't exactly offer much comradery or support to the nurses when they were taking their industrial action. The 1500 surplus admin staff is an opportunity cost of a similar number of front line staff. Cleaners, porters, nurses, doctors etc. Imagine the difference to the health service if we had a surplus of doctors rather than pencil pushers?

They could relocate the 1500 admin staff to other government departments (there's been 60,000 civil servants recruited over the last few years)

InFront

Tristrame wrote: »

If you ask me, the only people that would be smiling if Harney left over something she couldn't possibly have controlled ( A portlaoise doctors diagnosis ) would be the unions and the bloated management structure and it's back to square one because no ones going to touch them again.

There's more to her disastrous position in health than the misdiagnoses. They're just the most recent examples of failure in the service.

And it's not really for us to say that it couldn't have been stopped by Harney. We know there have been written warnings about staffing levels. Also, her department was advised of diagnostic equipment problems at Portlaoise on a number of occasions, warning that not having a histopathology service in place there would lead to errors. It's not just one doctor messing up - the very same thing has also, very recently, happened at Cork University Hospital and at the Univeristy College Hospital in Galway. Last year a young man was awarded compensation for having his stomach unnecessarily removed due to problems with a busy registrar pathologist in St Vincent's University Hospital. This all is suggestive of a systemic problem in the health service, and Mary Harney is failing to address it.

It was interesting to hear her trying to lay the blame on Radio 1 this morning, saying that whilse she had no interest in having herself investigated or resigning her own post, she thinks "people have to be accountable. There's no doubt about that, and there's a responsibility now for the board of the HSE to investigate the circumstances surrounding this and to account to me in relation to that matter."

I really think that by now, a lot of people have just had enough of her.

sovtek

walshb wrote: »

a Willie Walshe or a Michael O'Leary type figure to shake it up and get things done. These are the types of
people that the government should be scouting for. The Health service is a massive bureaucratic mess that needs some firm and responsible leadership....

I don't totally disagree with you but I gotta say this...
I don't know Willie Walshe but please lets not use O'Leary as an example of a leader or a great entrepeneur. He not only got the idea from a company that had been doing it for years but also got the CEO to show him how to run it. He also used his time and connections at the Minister for Transport's office.
Unlike O'Leary/Ryan Air, Southwest Airlines (out of me hometown I am proud to say) is a not only model airline but a model for its treatment of employees as well as customers. Sorry OT I know.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote: »

The 1500 surplus admin staff is an opportunity cost of a similar number of front line staff. Cleaners, porters, nurses, doctors etc. Imagine the difference to the health service if we had a surplus of doctors rather than pencil pushers?

A lot of the problem with doing that in one foul swoop is the fact that there is actually a lot of paperwork involved in health.
In private hospitals frontline staff(nurses and doctors) spend a lot of time doing that paperwork themselves and still seem to be able to provide a better service to their paying customers than whats available in the publically funded equivalent.
Riddle me that one if you can...

infront wrote:

And it's not really for us to say that it couldn't have been stopped by Harney.

She or any minister has no power over diagnosis.Paid professionals do.
If they want the snazziest of new equipment,it seems they'll have to relocate to a centre of excelence.
If they had no faith in their ability to rely on the existing equipment,then they shouldn't have been diagnosing with it full stop.
1 letter sent could mean anything.
It could have been testing the waters to see if their hospital was going to get new funding or be regarded as one of the new centres of excelence.
1 letter is certainly no excuse for carrying on diagnosing with a lack of confidence in the diagnosis.
Thats just plain crazy.The proper thing to do would have been to refer the patients on elsewhere.
But I suspect that if one consultant did that, then there would be a few eyebrows raised by their peers operating the same equipment more sucessfully.
Thats just another theory I'm putting across by the way,I'd rather wait for the report to see the facts.

Catari Jaguar

Suse wrote: »

I really do think that in light of recent breat cancer blunders that Mary Harney should resign immediately. This is a NATIONAL disgrace :mad:

I am not directly affected by this situation but I am appalled by it and I am furious that these medical blunders are happening time and time again and NO ONE but NO ONE gets sacked!!!! It's time for the "job for life" security to be a thing of the past. The Dr that missread these recent scans is now on "admin duties" with full pay. This is an absolute outrage and cannot be tolerated any longer. I'm looking forward to Liveline today!!!

Mary Harney is contstanly blaming the head of the HSE for everything that goes wrong, she recently said that the electrical staff needed to "cop on". This woman has caused so much trouble and chaos within the HSE and has done nothing to improve or streamline it.

The Susie Long story is just sad. Very very sad and a poor reflection on us all.

I really thing now is the time to really really shake things up and GET RID OF HARNEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Harney is an ex feckin teacher. WTF does she know about the health service or health in general (fat fcuk)?? She was typical know it all, walk in and take over (like so many old teachers are.... ) She should have gone to college and did an economics course or a politics course or a train for a few weeks in a hopsital to see what the real problems are. Something. ANYTHING! ARGH! She boils my blood.

She'll prob resign, leave behind her big mess of imcompetency in those fillthy hopsitals, get her HUGE minister pension and her teachers pension too and I reckon her old teaching job is still being held for her and she can go back to that. Bitch...

End rant.

sovtek

Tristrame wrote: »

If they want the snazziest of new equipment,it seems they'll have to relocate to a centre of excelence.
If they had no faith in their ability to rely on the existing equipment,then they shouldn't have been diagnosing with it full stop.

How are they supposed to refuse to do their job?
I wouldn't call using equipment on par with most of the western world is "snazzy". Besides the one person theory has been dealt with a few times already.

Catari Jaguar

Padraig Mor wrote: »

OT: am I the only one disgusted by the *constant* abuse Harney receives on Boards about her figure? Maybe she has a medical condition?

Flabitis?

Seriously though, not like she'l manage to get her "health problem" treated or cured in the shamble hospitals we have.. Although she'll prob go private... In Switzerland.

moe_sizlak

a lot of people seem to be on the hunt for a sacraficial lamb right now and mary seems to fit that bill , thing is though if she goes , she will be replaced by a FF minster and when apart from charlie mc reevy(who was at heart a PD) did a FF minister ever rattle a few cages like needs to be done in the public service in general and in particular the health service

if this goverment falls then we would probably have a labour minister and well all know how much taking on the unions a labour minister for health would do

as long as bertie aherne is leader of this country , no hard descisions will be made , in health or anywhere else , the only good bertie ever did (and it was in all fairness in a key area) was in northern ireland and up there he was not the one making the descisions , he was urging others like adams and paisley to do so
berite will not allow anyone take on the public service unions because if people are fired and unions take to the street , the rise in umemployment figures will make him look bad

moe_sizlak

purplengold wrote: »

Actually, I think Bertie will sack her, he doesn’t really need her vote and the other PD will rejoin FF. (this will be sorted with him before hand). That way he will be seen to be doing something without really doing anything. He’s probably thinking along these lines now; the only slight problem will be who to replace her with? But that only a detail.

couldnt disagree more , bertie wants a PD in a possition like health so at the next elections the FF td,s out looking for middle irelands vote can pin the whole blame on mary harney and the PD,s just like they did the last time

Akrasia

moe_sizlak wrote: »

a lot of people seem to be on the hunt for a sacraficial lamb right now and mary seems to fit that bill , thing is though if she goes , she will be replaced by a FF minster and when apart from charlie mc reevy(who was at heart a PD) did a FF minister ever rattle a few cages like needs to be done in the public service in general and in particular the health service

Why not give the Health portfolio to the other minority party in government? I'm sure one of the greens would like a go at it.. or if they wanted to be truly revolutionary, they could offer the job to the FG spokesperson for health who is a medical doctor and seems to think he knows a thing or two (seeing as its a poison chalice and all, there's no law that says ministers have to be from one of the government parties)

the_syco

The old way: it was a service, you tell the patient if something is wrong.

The current way: it's a system. You report it to the system, and expect the system to tell the patient.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote: »

Why not give the Health portfolio to the other minority party in government?

They don't want it
I suspect there weren't too many FF'ers sticking their head above the table when Bertie asked if any of them wanted it either.

sovtek wrote:

How are they supposed to refuse to do their job?
I wouldn't call using equipment on par with most of the western world is "snazzy".

It is snazzy if you are living in a country where there are so many fingers looking for a piece of the pie,that priorities mean,the snazzier piece of equipment goes into a few of the hospitals as opposed to all of them.

Besides the one person theory has been dealt with a few times already.

Maybe for you...

John_C

It's my opinion that a FF minister wouldn't have ordered that the dodgy scans be double checked. He would have kept his head down and avoided the political pressure Mary is currently getting but at the cost of nine women not getting treatment.

Even if you blame Harney for the problem happening, you have to credit her for digging into the files to discover the problem and getting those nine women treatment.

ateam

In answer to the thread headline..NO, Mary Harney should not resign. We don't need resignation calls from ineffective opposition. I feel the media has a part to play in hyping up her position.

The newstalk morning programme has completely biased presenters. They seem to think Ms Harney should and can solve everything with a magic wand. Will not be listening to their inherent bias anymore.

machiavellianme

If anyone should be removed, it should be Brian Cowen. Supposed representative for Laois/Offaly, former Minister for Health and current Tanaiste. He has done nothing for Laois. Ever! But he did manage to make sure every penny spent on Health in the constituency went to his beloved Tullamore. These problems arising are not from poor staff or services, they are from sub standard equipment, so old that they dont even use them to train on anymore. Is it any surprise this is what happens? I fully expect more people to be added to the growing list of having possible problems in the near future.
Harney is doing ok. Someone needs to reform the system and she seems to have the nerve to go through with it.

Walshb,You were warned previously not to refer to obesity on this thread and using the terms "fat slob" etc in a post here is not acceptable.

As you were warned previously you can now have a 1 month ban.

Roanmore

I remember during the Rainbow coaltion when Nora Owen was Minister for Justice, John O'Donohue was calling for her resignation everytime there was a bank robbery in the country. His reasoning for it was she was the Minister, it was her responsibility. If FF believed it back then then it should still hold through.

InFront

Tristrame wrote: »

If they want the snazziest of new equipment,it seems they'll have to relocate to a centre of excelence.

I agree. However, it would be wrong to relocate to a centre of excellence before the centre of excellence arrives, with accessory facilities like equipment and transport.
Better to have a poor service in an outlying General or Acute hospital than none at all.

1 letter sent could mean anything.
It could have been testing the waters to see if their hospital was going to get new funding or be regarded as one of the new centres of excelence.

Actually there were at least two letters. One from Mr Naughton,a surgeon, and another from the very well known oncologist the Marie Curie Professor who was attached to TCD and St Lukes, Mr. Hollywood.

The proper thing to do would have been to refer the patients on elsewhere.
But I suspect that if one consultant did that, then there would be a few eyebrows raised by their peers operating the same equipment more sucessfully.

As it is, a 12 month wait for mammography is common in some parts of this country. Any longer and the patient could be in the grave.

See what I mean about it being better to have a rudimentary service than none at all?

InFront

InFront wrote: »

As it is, a 12 month wait for mammography is common in some parts of this country. Any longer and the patient could be in the grave.

See what I mean about it being better to have a rudimentary service than none at all?

Isn't it interesting though that 2 specialists are being sent down to Portlaoise tomorrow to see all of the 97 and they will be there on monday if necessary to get through them.

Thats the kind of military effeciency thats been sadly lacking and just shows what can be done with a kick up the behind from politicians(clearly happening in the background now I'd say) reeling at the media coverage.

moe_sizlak

ateam wrote: »

In answer to the thread headline..NO, Mary Harney should not resign. We don't need resignation calls from ineffective opposition. I feel the media has a part to play in hyping up her position.

The newstalk morning programme has completely biased presenters. They seem to think Ms Harney should and can solve everything with a magic wand. Will not be listening to their inherent bias anymore.

hardly surprising , the media in ireland for the most part hates the PD,s