Dropping gears

MollyCoddle

I have my second test in a couple of days and have a new instructor for my pretests compared to who I actually learnt with.

My first instructor said it was ok (in a newer car) to drop from say 3rd to 1st without going to 2nd, whereas my new instructor is adamant you have to gradually go down through the gears (i.e. 3rd to 2nd, 2nd to 1st) though I wasn't marked down in my first test for doing the former.

Does anyone know which is wrong/right and do the testers care? (Considering it wasn't a problem the first time round).

Thanks

Vorsprung

Think you're supposed to cycle through like the 2nd guy said.

MollyCoddle

So say you come to a stop in 3rd at a roundabout or junction and have to move down to first to move off, do you have to move to 2 and then 1 while stationary?

Fobia

It wont answer your question, but according to my instructor you're meant to always be in second gear when you come to a complete stop (for the test, anyway).

I'd imagine it's better for the gears of the car to cycle down them?

dudara

Ah, this old chestnut. I think the last time we had one of these threads, the general consensus is that it is OK to come to a stop in whatever gear you are moving in, without stalling the car.

The more you move through the gears, the more the clutch is in, meaning that you are less in control of the car.

Sarn

You'll get two answers on what you should do. My instructor said it was ok to shift from say 4th to 2nd in modern cars and that the going down through the gears was necessary for older cars.

As pointed out above it's ok to stop in any gear as long as you don't stall, although personally I'd only stop in 2nd or 3rd.

BoxingCrab

I normally cycle thorough the gears when slowing the car down, it's meant to be better for the brakes as you are slowing the car down with the clutch more.

As for your test you will be fine if you stop in 3rd or 4th and then take the car out of gear and go into first when you are taking off again.

chris85

I would never stop in first as it really aint good for any engine. As well the reason for stopping in second is that you can take off quick if traffic starts moving. But if you are in first stopping in first the car can jump (and stall) if you try take off again while moving, unless you are clutching (not good either at all)

givyjoe81

chris85 wrote: »

I would never stop in first as it really aint good for any engine. As well the reason for stopping in second is that you can take off quick if traffic starts moving. But if you are in first stopping in first the car can jump (and stall) if you try take off again while moving, unless you are clutching (not good either at all)

Im no expert but i would be more worried about your clutch rather than wearing the brakes, brake pads are easily replaced and less expensive, i was told using the clutch too much and unneccesarily will lead to quicker wear and tear on the clutch.

Also i dont do it myself but is slowing down cycling through the gears not really difficult, or let rather does it not cause your car to jump a little if you dont time the depressing of the clutch correctly? Iv noticed my car ( a 00 punto, has developed a strange suttering tendency as i accelerate through lower gears, 1st and 2nd, similar to the same effect of trying to pull off in second gear from stationary, could this be caused by my failure to cycle though the gears?

chris85

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Also i dont do it myself but is slowing down cycling through the gears not really difficult, or let rather does it not cause your car to jump a little if you dont time the depressing of the clutch correctly? Iv noticed my car ( a 00 punto, has developed a strange suttering tendency as i accelerate through lower gears, 1st and 2nd, similar to the same effect of trying to pull off in second gear from stationary, could this be caused by my failure to cycle though the gears?

Cycling through the gears is pretty easy once you get used to it, the car will jump if you dont do it correctly. For instance its not recommended to go from 4th to second as this strains the engine, and the car will jump a bit.

Clutch wear is no big deal if you do it correctly, When changing, clutch should be fully engaged or fully disengaged. Its not about brake pad wear but also about safety of stopping. You can control the car much easier if you cycle down the gears while slowing down. Some people say you have no control if you are using the clutch so much but if you stop in 4th gear (or neutral as some people do) the car cannot react to unforeseen circumstance such as traffic moving again, someone coming out on the road etc. How can you control a car going a 20 kmph in 4th gear.

givyjoe81

chris85 wrote: »

Cycling through the gears is pretty easy once you get used to it, the car will jump if you dont do it correctly. For instance its not recommended to go from 4th to second as this strains the engine, and the car will jump a bit.

Clutch wear is no big deal if you do it correctly, When changing, clutch should be fully engaged or fully disengaged. Its not about brake pad wear but also about safety of stopping. You can control the car much easier if you cycle down the gears while slowing down. Some people say you have no control if you are using the clutch so much but if you stop in 4th gear (or neutral as some people do) the car cannot react to unforeseen circumstance such as traffic moving again, someone coming out on the road etc. How can you control a car going a 20 kmph in 4th gear.

I find it hard to put this into words, something i just kind of do, but i would be looking out to see if the traffic is gonna move, i cycle down through gears unless im coming to a red light, then i just leave it in fourth then clutch just below 20, prob repeating myself but there ya go.

bonkey

chris85 wrote: »

How can you control a car going a 20 kmph in 4th gear.

The same way you control a car in any gear - by remaining aware of your situation, and being ready to react should it change.

MrPudding

Personally I would always try to be in a gear suitable for the speed I am travelling at. I do not think 4th gear is a suitable gear for travelling at 20mph. Were something to happen which requires you to move off rapidly, meaning you plans change and you are not going to stop afterall, you risk stalling the car or wasting time changing to an appropriate gear.

That said, what makes sense in actually day to day or advanced driving does not neccesarily reflect what the examiners are looking for. This is definately the case in the UL and would imagine it is the same in Ireland.

MrP

bonkey

MrPudding wrote: »

Personally I would always try to be in a gear suitable for the speed I am travelling at. I do not think 4th gear is a suitable gear for travelling at 20mph. Were something to happen which requires you to move off rapidly, meaning you plans change and you are not going to stop afterall, you risk stalling the car or wasting time changing to an appropriate gear.

OK....but can you honestly give me an example of what might happen which requires this rapidity?

Bear in mind that you are coming to a stop because of a red light or for some other indicated requirement (e.g. a stop sign). You may or may not be stopping behind other cars.

What situation, specifically, can you identify which would:

a) Require you to move forwards more rapidly than your current speed.
b) Be time-critical enough that you need to accelerate immediately
c) Not land you in trouble by the fact that you're close to a point where you have to stop anyway (that being why you're braking to a halt in a high gear).

The closet case I can identify is where there is no traffic in front of you, you are coming to a halt at traffic lights, and the lights change from red to green. Given that you are still moving at this point, you are still "making progress" as you downshift. Here in Switzerland (whatever about other countries), even this situation is no more than a remote possibility, as traffic lights go from red to orange to green, meaning that all drivers have forewarning of when the light is about to go green...giving ample time to downshift.

If you can envisage a genuine risk, then I'm all ears.

pete4130

Choose a gear that suits the speed you are going at. 4th at 20mph is a little too slow IMO. If the car is struggling go down a gear, if the engine is revving too much go up a gear. Again it is all situation dependant i.e traffic flow, on an uphill/downhill, on a straight, yield sign/stop sign etc....

MrPudding

bonkey wrote: »

OK....but can you honestly give me an example of what might happen which requires this rapidity?

Bear in mind that you are coming to a stop because of a red light or for some other indicated requirement (e.g. a stop sign). You may or may not be stopping behind other cars.

What situation, specifically, can you identify which would:

a) Require you to move forwards more rapidly than your current speed.
b) Be time-critical enough that you need to accelerate immediately
c) Not land you in trouble by the fact that you're close to a point where you have to stop anyway (that being why you're braking to a halt in a high gear).

The closet case I can identify is where there is no traffic in front of you, you are coming to a halt at traffic lights, and the lights change from red to green. Given that you are still moving at this point, you are still "making progress" as you downshift. Here in Switzerland (whatever about other countries), even this situation is no more than a remote possibility, as traffic lights go from red to orange to green, meaning that all drivers have forewarning of when the light is about to go green...giving ample time to downshift.

If you can envisage a genuine risk, then I'm all ears.

Who knows? Could be anything, it might never happen at all. The point is you should be in a gear appropriate for the speed you are doing. The thing about the unexpected is, well, it's unexpected.

I can give you an example of something that happened to me in Milton Keynes. As I was slowing to stop at the end of a queue of traffic it became apparent that the guy behind me was not going to be able to stop. I had to take evasive action to avoid being rear ended. Luckily I was in a gear appropriate for the speed I was travelling and was able to accelerate smoothly away into the other lane, which was clear.

It has been a long time since I did my test, so I don't know what they look for in these situations. From recent experience I have had with advanceP tuition I can tell you that fr an advanced test you will be expected to be in a gear appropriate for the speed you are travelling at. For me it just makes sense to be in a gear that allows youto move off, if required, without any additional effort.

MrP

dubambman

1 to go
2 to turn
3 to stop
4 to travel and
5 to cruise

bonkey

MrPudding wrote: »

The point is you should be in a gear appropriate for the speed you are doing.

I agree 100% - thats why I asked for a specific example of when 4th gear would be inappropriate to use when coming to a stop.

The thing about the unexpected is, well, it's unexpected.

There's a difference between unexpected and unidentifiable.

We wear a seatbelt because we may find ourselves an accident where it saves us from injury or even death. Such accidents are unexpected. We can, however, identify that such accidents exist...which is pretty-much why we have seatbelts in the first place.

Safety involves preparing for the identifiable, in case it unexpectedly occurs. Once we can identify the risks, we can choose the most appropriate technique to adopt to minimise the dangers should any of those risks unexpectedly come to pass.

I can give you an example of something that happened to me in Milton Keynes. As I was slowing to stop at the end of a queue of traffic it became apparent that the guy behind me was not going to be able to stop. I had to take evasive action to avoid being rear ended. Luckily I was in a gear appropriate for the speed I was travelling and was able to accelerate smoothly away into the other lane, which was clear.

Put yourself in almost the same situation, except that you notice the driver while your car is out of gear because you're switching from 4th to 3rd. You also only have one hand on the steering wheel because you're changing gears. You have no ability to accelerate, and your steering capability is reduced. Now repeat for 3rd to 2nd. That's two situations where you're in an inappropriate gear (i.e. none) for the speed you're doing, and have a reduced ability to steer (on account of gear-changing). How is that safer?

Incidentally, its worth considering why (for example) we're not encouraged to keep our car in gear, ready to go, when we're stationary. It would, after all, make us less prone to the type of situation you described. The reason (which I assume is obvious) is because the risks of accident caused by having the car in gear, ready to go are greater than the risks of accident caused by not having the car in gear.

We hear time and time again that the car is least under control when it is out of gear. You go through that operation more often, and at higher speeds, in order to - as you say - keep the car in what you consider an appropriate gear.

I don't think either option is risk-free....but I don't accept that remaining in a higher gear is inherently riskier.

It has been a long time since I did my test, so I don't know what they look for in these situations. From recent experience I have had with advanceP tuition I can tell you that fr an advanced test you will be expected to be in a gear appropriate for the speed you are travelling at.

I only recently did my test, albeit in Switzerland. My (qualified) instructor taught me to drive this way. It is considered (over here) to be the right way to do brake to a planned stop in a modern car.

For me it just makes sense to be in a gear that allows youto move off, if required, without any additional effort.

Whereas for me, it makes more sense to not be out of gear repeatedly, with only one hand on the steering wheel, unless there is an identifiable reason why that is the safer option.

MrPudding

bonkey wrote: »

I agree 100% - thats why I asked for a specific example of when 4th gear would be inappropriate to use when coming to a stop.

What you are planning to do is not really relevent. he advice is to be in a gear appropriate for the speed you are travelling at. Not, the speed you are travelling at depending on what you are going to do in the future. What I mean here is the fact you are going to stop is not really relevant. You are still travelling at a particular speed, you should be in the gear appropriate for that speed.

bonkey wrote: »

Put yourself in almost the same situation, except that you notice the driver while your car is out of gear because you're switching from 4th to 3rd. You also only have one hand on the steering wheel because you're changing gears. You have no ability to accelerate, and your steering capability is reduced. Now repeat for 3rd to 2nd. That's two situations where you're in an inappropriate gear (i.e. none) for the speed you're doing, and have a reduced ability to steer (on account of gear-changing). How is that safer?

I think the fact that you are "between gears" is a bit of a silly argument. But, if you want to use it fine. Let's take my example and assume that I have not already changed to the appropriate gear, but am in the process of doing it. Which will be faster, completing an action I have already decided on and am in the process of actioning or, realising someone is going to drive into the back of me, deciding on what will be an appropriate gear, depressing the clutch, moving from whatever gear I am currently in to the gear I think I should now be in? Personally I will go with my option. It has worked for me in real life and it is what is recommended by advanced instructors.

bonkey wrote: »

Incidentally, its worth considering why (for example) we're not encouraged to keep our car in gear, ready to go, when we're stationary. It would, after all, make us less prone to the type of situation you described. The reason (which I assume is obvious) is because the risks of accident caused by having the car in gear, ready to go are greater than the risks of accident caused by not having the car in gear.

But that is not what we are talking about here. What I am arguing against is slowing down in a gear and staying in that gear until the verge of stalling the car. I certainly would not recommend sitting stationary for a long period of time with the car in gear. I would, however, when the car is moving, recommend being in a gear that will allow you t pull smoothly away with a minimum of fuss should it be required.

bonkey wrote: »

We hear time and time again that the car is least under control when it is out of gear.

I really think they mean when coasting, not so much when when you are changing gears. It is also dangerous to take you eyes off the road. What is your position on blnking while driving?

bonkey wrote: »

You go through that operation more often, and at higher speeds, in order to - as you say - keep the car in what you consider an appropriate gear.

I, and obviously advanced instructors, seem to think there s less risk having the car "coast" for a fraction of a second between gear changes than not being in a gear you can accelerate in.

bonkey wrote: »

I don't think either option is risk-free....but I don't accept that remaining in a higher gear is inherently riskier.


I only recently did my test, albeit in Switzerland. My (qualified) instructor taught me to drive this way. It is considered (over here) to be the right way to do brake to a planned stop in a modern car.

Fair enough. I accept that you have not been driving long and I remember when I was learning and the instructors word was taken as gospel, and I do not mean that in a condescending way.. Perhaps as you drive more and perhaps go for some advanced training you might change your mind.:)

bonkey wrote: »

Whereas for me, it makes more sense to not be out of gear repeatedly, with only one hand on the steering wheel, unless there is an identifiable reason why that is the safer option.

One hand off the wheel for a second and the car out of gear for a fraction of a second seems more safe to me than a frantic grope for a gear when you find the gear you are in is suddenly not appropriatefor the situation you find yourself in. But then that's just me.........and advanced drivers and advanced instructors, and police drivers and police driving instructors........

MrP

bonkey

MrPudding wrote: »

...
it is what is recommended by advanced instructors.
...
I, and obviously advanced instructors, seem to think there s less risk
...
Fair enough. I accept that you have not been driving long and I remember when I was learning and the instructors word was taken as gospel, and I do not mean that in a condescending way.. Perhaps as you drive more and perhaps go for some advanced training you might change your mind.:)

I notice that when talking about what you believe is right, you defend it by saying its what instructors teach you and what you've heard from people who drive professionally. When talking about what instructors taught me, all of a sudden, it shouldn't be taken as gospel just because it came from an instructor

What it really boils down to is that different instructors teach different things, and different people do different things as a result. All are convinced they're doing the right thing and examiners won't fail you for either.

One hand off the wheel for a second and the car out of gear for a fraction of a second seems more safe to me than a frantic grope for a gear when you find the gear you are in is suddenly not appropriatefor the situation you find yourself in.

There's no frantic groping involved. For an experienced driver, I find it amazing that you are suggesting someone wouldn't know which gear is correct for the situation, or whatever it is you believe will lead to the "frantic" part. I also think that if a driver has to "grope" in any situation, they should be taken off the roads because they don't know what they're doing.

When braking, as at all times, a driver should remain aware of their situation. Just as you be prepared to brake when passing hazards (foot over brake-pedal, removing almost all reaction time), you are prepared to de-clutch and change gear if necessary when braking without downshifting.

If you need to downshift, you downshift. If you think there might be a need to downshift, you downshift to be safe. It may be sudden, but if its either frantic or groping, you've done it wrong.

But then that's just me.........and advanced drivers and advanced instructors, and police drivers and police driving instructors........

Again...your sources are gospel, but my sources aren't...

I'm intrigued, though, that the correct technique for braking is something you've discussed with so many different people.

MrPudding

bonkey wrote: »

I notice that when talking about what you believe is right, you defend it by saying its what instructors teach you and what you've heard from people who drive professionally. When talking about what instructors taught me, all of a sudden, it shouldn't be taken as gospel just because it came from an instructor

A driving instructor teaching a learner driver to pass the test is very different from an advanced instructor trying to teach someone to pass an advanced test. But then I think you know I meant that... A person that is just learning to drive is not as capable as an experienced driver, I am sure you will agree with that. Not changing through the gears is a much easier method to grasp. There are a few things, particularly in the UK bike test, where I was told do this in the test, but do it differently once you pass.

bonkey wrote: »

What it really boils down to is that different instructors teach different things, and different people do different things as a result. All are convinced they're doing the right thing and examiners won't fail you for either.

I agree to a certain extent, but I think this difference is more to do with the level of instruction rather than differences between instructors.

bonkey wrote: »

There's no frantic groping involved. For an experienced driver, I find it amazing that you are suggesting someone wouldn't know which gear is correct for the situation, or whatever it is you believe will lead to the "frantic" part.

It is very easy for anyone to have a split second of confusion in a moment of panic. I think generally it makes more sense that a person should have as little as possible to do should they find themselves in a situation that is very different from what they expected.

bonkey wrote: »

I also think that if a driver has to "grope" in any situation, they should be taken off the roads because they don't know what they're doing.

I agree with you, and perhaps I exaggerated things slightly.....;) I would still prefer to be in the gear I need when I need it rather than having to find it. I am not saying it will take me ages to find it simply that it is obviously faster to already be in the gear you need (or be in the process of getting into the gear you need) than it is to have to strt a complete gear change action form an inappropriate gear.

bonkey wrote: »

When braking, as at all times, a driver should remain aware of their situation. Just as you be prepared to brake when passing hazards (foot over brake-pedal, removing almost all reaction time), you are prepared to de-clutch and change gear if necessary when braking without downshifting.

If you need to downshift, you downshift. If you think there might be a need to downshift, you downshift to be safe. It may be sudden, but if its either frantic or groping, you've done it wrong.

I am not quite sure what you mean here.. If there is a need to downshift? Well, there is a need to downshift, it is called being in a gear appropriate for the speed you are travelling at.

bonkey wrote: »

Again...your sources are gospel, but my sources aren't...

I did not say that. I pointed out that, in my experience, normal driving instructors tend to recommend what you are talking about, whilst advanced instructors tend to recommend what I am talking about. No gospel, just different levels of instruction.

bonkey wrote: »

I'm intrigued, though, that the correct technique for braking is something you've discussed with so many different people.

I spend quite a lot of time on boards, this has come up a few times. I am a member of the Institute of Advanced Motorists. All of the IAM examiners and a lot of the members are police riders / drivers or instructors. Everyone else is either at or training for an advanced qualification, and, sad as it may sound, I frequently discuss threads like this that appear on boards to get the opinions of other people. As a group we also have regular theory sessions to discuss different driving and riding methods. So yes, I have discussed this kind of thing with quite a large number of people.

MrP

bonkey

MrPudding wrote: »

A driving instructor teaching a learner driver to pass the test is very different from an advanced instructor trying to teach someone to pass an advanced test. But then I think you know I meant that... A person that is just learning to drive is not as capable as an experienced driver, I am sure you will agree with that. Not changing through the gears is a much easier method to grasp. There are a few things, particularly in the UK bike test, where I was told do this in the test, but do it differently once you pass.

Fair enough.

I went and did some quick searching around to see if I could find anything...

Here's one example where they say:

If you’re not familiar with engine braking, just be sure to keep your clutch engaged when slowing down, sticking to the current gear you’re in, and applying the brakes when you need to stop already or decrease speed. Don’t worry, your engine will still have enough torque up to a certain speed, and you won’t stall. When you reach the minimum speed your gear can take (usually around 15 to 20 Kph in 4th/5th gear, in my experience), you can then disengage the clutch and/or go into neutral. If you find the need to accelerate again, then you can downshift (usually into 2nd gear, depending on your speed).

Any other sites I've found so far are also saying the same thing - either block-change from 4th/5th down to 2nd, or stay in 4th/5th entirely.

Now, while I'm not going to suggest that people running and contributing to advanced driving websites should be considered as gospel, I haven't found a single advanced driving website which is advocating stepping down sequentially through the gears, an

I did not say that. I pointed out that, in my experience, normal driving instructors tend to recommend what you are talking about, whilst advanced instructors tend to recommend what I am talking about. No gospel, just different levels of instruction.

Whereas everything I've seen says that the older technique was what you are recommending, and the current technique is block-shifting or remaining in the high gear entirely.

I am a member of the Institute of Advanced Motorists. All of the IAM examiners and a lot of the members are police riders / drivers or instructors.

Fair enough. The IAM website recommends the following:

These days, we recommend “block changing”. Use the brakes to slow down, then, when the speed is right, choose the gear that is best for that speed. So you may move from fourth, say, straight to second, after you have finished braking

Maybe its just bad wording on the site, but they seem to be saying that you change gears after you finish braking, choosing a gear suitable for the speed you have braked to....but that you do not use intermediate gears whilst braking.

Whatever about coming to a stop, this would seem to fly in the face of what you're saying if, for example, you are braking not to a halt, but to below the speed where your car will stall in the gear you start braking in.

Interestingly, the same IAM site also gives a driving tip of leaving the car out of gear for a second or two whilst gear-changing, in order to get a smoother shift. Where does one croass the line and go from "smooth gear-changing" to "coasting", I wonder?

Oh its all so confusing. Life would be so much easier if there just one agreed-upon best practice, with proper sourcing...rather than a small number of options each of which has their advocates, and all of which seem to be supported by their advocates referring to support of other advocates.

J_R

Hi,

From The IAM Advanced Driver's Manual - Pass Your Advanced Driving Test, Editioin 2002.

Page 27.

Coming to a Stop
The technique you use when coming to a complete halt after driving along in one of the higher gears often causes problems for candidates during the Advanced Driving Test. What you should do is best illustrated by imagining you are travelling along a suburban road in fifth gear at 40 MPH and traffic lights ahead turn red.

You slow down your car on the brakes alone, but there comes a point when the engine starts to labour. This is the moment when you de-clutch progressively, in order to prevent the engine straining the transmission and ultimately stalling. Normally it is a rule of advanced driving that you should not 'coast' with the clutch disengaged or the gearbox in neutral, but in this case you have to break this rule briefly by de-clutching so that you come to a halt without stalling the engine.
Never change into neutral before you have stopped and first secured the car on the handbrake. Engage first gear again shortly before you expect to move off.

My instructor taught me the above technique.