Management Company

xxdilemmaxx

Hi all,

This is kind of trivial but I received a newsletter from the management company for my estate yesterday and it stated that they are keeping a record of any unsociable behaviour and will report offenders to the gardai or impose fines.

They also say that some residents are placing bags of rubbish next to the bhins rather than in the bins and that they will 'post pictures of the offenders on the notice boards throughout the estate and impose fines' they also said they will go through the rubbish to find names on bills etc.

Now I'm all for keeping the place clean but surely they can't be posting pictures of people on the frickin notice boards?

Also an they legally impose a fine on someone? I may be confused but I thought the residents were hiring them?

It just really annoyed me to get that in my post box yesterday...

Any thoughts appreciated!

Paulw

They are employed by the management company (the residents), so the directors of the management company have probably told them to do this.

No idea about posting pictures (don't think there is anything illegal about this at all).

Sending a fine is certainly permitted. They can either a) report the offender to the local authority for littering (€150 fine per item up to €3,000 I think), or b) they can fine you directly, since there is probably some clause in the lease contract about keeping the area tidy.

Sounds like they're doing a good job, and it should be encouraged. Littering is disgusting and is a health issue too.

Our management company are currently in the process of doing the very same thing (without posting photos).

Victor

Only a court can fine someone as such, but they are other ways of making people pay up.

Why do you think they can't put up photos? OK, it could be risky from a defamation point of view, but it might work.

xxdilemmaxx

I don't know, I guess I just feel like they think they are the police or something. Every week they are sending newsletters in my door saying they will fine people for various things, imposing noise curfews, banning animals etc...

Then on the flip side they are not keeping the place clean, washing apt windows etc.

I feel that as I have paid so much money to own my own place that I shouldn't be told what to do by someone I'm forking out my money to (management fee is 1400).

On the flip side, I do want the place to be kept free of litter I just think it's a bit much to be threatening people with posting their pictures everywhere.

Also just wanted to see if they legally had any authority to fine someone.

Paulw

Firstly, they are not making up rules. I would bet that everything that they are saying are well within the contracts people sign when buying their unit.

It is common to have contract clauses - such as no pets, no loud noises after 10pm, no satellite dishes, etc. There are also probably clauses in the same contract about what fines can be imposed. So, I honestly believe that everything they are doing is totally legal.

With litter, it's easy. They simply report the offender to the litter warden. That is quite common for management agents, and it tends to work.

There is nothing illegal about posting someone's photo. They can't claim defamation if they are photographed littering.

As far as I'm concerned, fair play to your management company and management agent. I wish more places acted in the same manner. They are simply doing what they should do - enforce the clauses that everyone signed up to when buying.

You say that they are not keeping the place clean, but this sounds like they are now trying to make sure that the residents keep the place clean. This should ultimately reduce costs and hopefully reduce your management fee.

zefer

I am a director of the mgmt. company in our development and we have instructed the mgmt agent to do exactly that, as illegal dumping was getting out of hand in our development.
If you arent doing anything wrong (i.e. anything that is not in the house rules) like dumping illegally, keeping pets, then you should have nothing to worry about.
Fair play to your mgmt company for enforcing the rules. It'll help you if you ever go to sell if the place is free of rubbish etc..

ps. If you don't want people "telling you what to do", you should volunteer to join the mgmt company. Then you will be influencing the rules and not following them

Bigbadjohn

Hi All,

I have been living in an apt for 3 years now and honestly I am shocked at the level of service I have recieved for the money I am paying, 2080 as of this years bill. I understand its the MA not the MC, however in my place there is an issue with this.

Turns out the MC is run by the same ppl who run the MA and are also the developers of the property. Also they own some of the apts in my building which will prob make it more difficult to shift them if I can get others off their asses to do something about it.

In addition, some of the apts in my place have been bought by the eastern health board which means we get a lot of 'undesireables' in.

There is a lot more, but to get to my main point...I want to know has anybody set up a management agency? If so, how is it working out for you and what did it entail. My reason for asking is that I honestly believe I could do a better job from my kitchen table than these ppl are doing and I think I could offer value for money.

My main sticking points are as follows:

* References- As I have never done this before I would have no industry experience.
* Cash - As tenders are on a yearly basis how do I sustain the business until I get my first contract and for how long did you have to wait before you sourced your first contract.
* Contingencies - Emergency services for lift repair, electricity etc.

I genuinely believe I could offer ppl value for money and honestly would look to charge a fair price as am at the recieving end of a bad deal currently.

thinkofaname!

HI BBJ,

Interesting thoughts. Some time ago I was in the same position as you. I now operate a cleaning, gardening and general maintenance service for a number of apartment developments, mainly owner managed.

To address some of your points:

You have no experience but better a copped-on newbie than someone who knows what to do and doesn’t do it. Experience as a director of your own management company would help. Your freshness and enthusiasm are your strong point. You do have references.

Most contracts I have seen can be broken by either parties with either one or three months notice. So contracts do not necessarily take a year to come around again.

Contingency/Emergency services – There are lots of good guys out there who can do these things and are happy to work with other good people. Boards is a good source of info on this. Put out the word and put together a panel.

Basically, use your weaknesses and turn them into strengths and selling points – I am a 1 – 2 person operation but if some one sees me on site and tells me something needs doing, it is done (normally) the same day.

The only real obstacles that I can see to your plans are getting up to speed on the legislation, organising contracts and the fact that for the first couple of years it will be very intense.

The best advice I can give is to be very specific about the service you are offering, do not promise what you can’t deliver. But if you do promise something, deliver it.

Good luck!

20goto10

zefer wrote: »

I am a director of the mgmt. company in our development and we have instructed the mgmt agent to do exactly that, as illegal dumping was getting out of hand in our development.
If you arent doing anything wrong (i.e. anything that is not in the house rules) like dumping illegally, keeping pets, then you should have nothing to worry about.
Fair play to your mgmt company for enforcing the rules. It'll help you if you ever go to sell if the place is free of rubbish etc..

ps. If you don't want people "telling you what to do", you should volunteer to join the mgmt company. Then you will be influencing the rules and not following them

I feel the same when I get letters from the management company. I've no problem them enforcing litter control. But what gives management companies the right to tell people they can't own a pet???!!! And banning satellite dishes and clothes lines because they are ugly. Who decides what is ugly and what is not? Is there an EU ugliness directive they go by? I see lots of ugly people walking around the estate lets ban them too. And Big ugly dirty SUVs parked on the roads and footpaths...I can go on. Its BS.

Management companies are like a union for all the aul biddies who like to complain about anything and everything. The management companies need to get some cop on and stop wasting our "stationery budget" on things they have no right to interfere in.

BC

20goto10 wrote: »

I feel the same when I get letters from the management company. I've no problem them enforcing litter control. But what gives management companies the right to tell people they can't own a pet???!!! And banning satellite dishes and clothes lines because they are ugly. Who decides what is ugly and what is not? Is there an EU ugliness directive they go by? I see lots of ugly people walking around the estate lets ban them too. And Big ugly dirty SUVs parked on the roads and footpaths...I can go on. Its BS.

Management companies are like a union for all the aul biddies who like to complain about anything and everything. The management companies need to get some cop on and stop wasting our "stationery budget" on things they have no right to interfere in.

The owners are the management company. The rules were there when you signed, if you didn't like them you shouldn't have signed. You can try and get involved with a residents committee to get things like no pets changed by a vote at the AGM. I think it depends on your mgmt company whether things need everyone to agree or whether a majority is enough.

20goto10

BC wrote: »

The owners are the management company. The rules were there when you signed, if you didn't like them you shouldn't have signed. You can try and get involved with a residents committee to get things like no pets changed by a vote at the AGM. I think it depends on your mgmt company whether things need everyone to agree or whether a majority is enough.

And this sort of reply really really gets on my nerves. Management companies are not above the law. It does not matter what you have signed they cannot make up their own laws. In certain circumstances you need planning permission for a satellite dish, in all others nobody has a right to interfere no matter what you have signed. As for telling you you cannot keep a pet....complete rubbish and nothing you have signed can stop you owning a pet if you wish to do so.

Paulw

20goto10 wrote: »

And this sort of reply really really gets on my nerves. Management companies are not above the law. It does not matter what you have signed they cannot make up their own laws. In certain circumstances you need planning permission for a satellite dish, in all others nobody has a right to interfere no matter what you have signed. As for telling you you cannot keep a pet....complete rubbish and nothing you have signed can stop you owning a pet if you wish to do so.

Management companies are certainly not above the law, and since you signed a legally binding contract, neither are you above the law - contract law. You signed a contract that you agreed that you were not permitted a satellite dish, that you were not permitted to hang washing, and no pets, etc. You need to live up to the obligations too.

The management company is not interfering, they are simply enforcing the clauses in the contract that was signed. They are more than within their rights to enforce the contract and deal with offenders.

Changing clauses in the Lease Contract/Management contract is very hard, almost impossible actually.

20goto10

Paulw wrote: »

Management companies are certainly not above the law, and since you signed a legally binding contract, neither are you above the law - contract law. You signed a contract that you agreed that you were not permitted a satellite dish, that you were not permitted to hang washing, and no pets, etc. You need to live up to the obligations too.

The management company is not interfering, they are simply enforcing the clauses in the contract that was signed. They are more than within their rights to enforce the contract and deal with offenders.

Changing clauses in the Lease Contract/Management contract is very hard, almost impossible actually.

Thats not how it works. There's certain things you cannot be held by when signing a contract. I'll give you an example:

Lets say I signed a contract that states "You must bend over and take one from behind whenever I say so". Does that mean I must get repeatedly buggered by you just because it says so in the contract?

The clauses of a contract must comply with the law. If they do not then they are not contractually binding.

I'm not a lawyer but I am speaking from experience.

20goto10

btw, to add to that, a contract is a two way document. It is something negotiated by both parties. This is not what management companies ask people to sign before buying a home. Its a one way "take it or leave it" document that is full of clauses which have no merit whatsoever.

I signed my contract, that is very true. But I did so on the legal advice that many of the clauses are not legally enforcable.

And yes, I'm the proud owner of a satellite dish in a satellite free zone.

partyguinness

I would be very slow to post photos up. That may come under the realm of the Data Protections Act which criminal sanctions.

Also posting someones photo on the internet without permission is an invasion of privacy.

Legally, they are really sailing close to the wind.

Paulw

partyguinness wrote: »

I would be very slow to post photos up. That may come under the realm of the Data Protections Act which criminal sanctions.

Also posting someones photo on the internet without permission is an invasion of privacy.

In Ireland there are very few privacy laws, so posting a photo online would very much depend on the circumstances on how/where the photo was taken.

As for Data Protection, if the image is of editorial content, then it is exempt from the Data Protection Act. Showing committing a crime is deemed as editorial/newsworthy.

Paulw

20goto10 wrote: »

The clauses of a contract must comply with the law. If they do not then they are not contractually binding.

Correct, however there is no law that states that forbidding a satellite dishes, forbidding pets, forbidding the public hanging of clothes are in breach of Irish Law.

partyguinness

Paulw wrote: »

In Ireland there are very few privacy laws, so posting a photo online would very much depend on the circumstances on how/where the photo was taken.

As for Data Protection, if the image is of editorial content, then it is exempt from the Data Protection Act. Showing committing a crime is deemed as editorial/newsworthy.

I was looking at it from a data storage point of view. If one is taking photos, storing personal information about someone, presumably on computer, then there may very well be Data Protection issues.

As for privacy laws, a scacity of actual legislation is made up by common law. But compared to mainland Europe, very little protection and, dare I say, downright respect for privacy in Ireland.

partyguinness

Paulw wrote: »

Correct, however there is no law that states that forbidding a satellite dishes, forbidding pets, forbidding the public hanging of clothes are in breach of Irish Law.

Those conditions are contract based and enforceable in court (as if anybody could be arsed) no matter how outlandish.

20goto10

partyguinness wrote: »

Those conditions are contract based and enforceable in court (as if anybody could be arsed) no matter how outlandish.

Care to point out the law that states anything a person signs is enforceable no matter how outlandish and regardless of whether or not they contravene existing state laws? Just to clarify things.

20goto10

Paulw wrote: »

Correct, however there is no law that states that forbidding a satellite dishes, forbidding pets, forbidding the public hanging of clothes are in breach of Irish Law.

Yes thats true. You're not breaking the law by putting that stuff in a contract. You can put whatever you want in it. But people need to be aware that just because they signed a contract does not necessarily mean it is enforceable. A lot of the clauses in the contract I signed are in the words of my solicitor "not worth the paper they are written on". And I would even go a bit further and say that in some circumstances they are indeed breaking the law. In my own estate we can only get one cable provider. All other satellite or cable providers are banned. Clearly they are not aware of consumer and competition laws never mind planning permission laws.

talkingclock

contracts are never above law!

partyguinness

20goto10 wrote: »

Care to point out the law that states anything a person signs is enforceable no matter how outlandish and regardless of whether or not they contravene existing state laws? Just to clarify things.

Common Law or Contract Law enforces contractual obligations i.e Judge made law which has evolved over hundreds of years. Of course there are exceptions, such illegality.

I think you want me to quote an actual legislative enactment..there is none. It is not that black and white.

SimpleSam06

partyguinness wrote: »

Common Law or Contract Law enforces contractual obligations i.e Judge made law which has evolved over hundreds of years. Of course there are exceptions, such illegality.

No, if you sign a contract with me that forces you to leap off a cliff, I cannot get the courts to enforce that. Although an extreme case, it underlines the fact that just because you sign something doesn't mean you are bound to stick with it.

If you are going to point out that in grey areas of the law you will more than likely have to stick with your contractual obligations, you would be correct, but nobody is talking about that here.

laughin'joe

No they can't post a pic of anyone on notice boards believe it or not that's your image rights being voilated. It may sound weird but it is, if it was TV you have to sign a waiver but if it is a news paper and it was a criminal act you can do noting but if a photographer took your pic for the paper on a day at the seaside he has to ask your permission, we were asked permission one day by a phogr. And the Garda can't do anything about this the have no authority in the area, they can't even do you for speeding in areas controlled by management companies because there is no local authority (dublin corporation) if they do that you can vote them out on the next AGM and let them know you know your rights and you will sue after all it is not you and they will be taking your character. You get sick of these people but if your estate is 7 years old you can vote them out and get the corpo to take charge of the area...this is the law and everyone should know it if in doubt ring the Labour office evn if you don't support them Pat Rabit sent out all the info on this to our estate a while back nad since then.....there like little lambs....just 4 years to go and there out of here....

xxdilemmaxx wrote: »

Hi all,

This is kind of trivial but I received a newsletter from the management company for my estate yesterday and it stated that they are keeping a record of any unsociable behaviour and will report offenders to the gardai or impose fines.

They also say that some residents are placing bags of rubbish next to the bhins rather than in the bins and that they will 'post pictures of the offenders on the notice boards throughout the estate and impose fines' they also said they will go through the rubbish to find names on bills etc.

Now I'm all for keeping the place clean but surely they can't be posting pictures of people on the frickin notice boards?

Also an they legally impose a fine on someone? I may be confused but I thought the residents were hiring them?

It just really annoyed me to get that in my post box yesterday...

Any thoughts appreciated!

Paulw

laughin'joe wrote: »

No they can't post a pic of anyone on notice boards believe it or not that's your image rights being voilated. It may sound weird but it is, if it was TV you have to sign a waiver but if it is a news paper and it was a criminal act you can do noting but if a photographer took your pic for the paper on a day at the seaside he has to ask your permission

That's not totally correct. Any image taken in a public space by a photographer may be used editorially without permission from the subject.

http://www.digitalrights.ie/2006/05/09/photographers-rights/

The Gardai do have the ability to enforce the law on a managed estate. If someone is committing a crime then the Gardai are within their rights to enter the premises and make an arrest.

techdiver

Management Company = Formalised Biddying

It's amazing that the only correspondence you ever receive from a MC is to inform people of what they can't do, or to P**s and moan about some irrelevant crap!

MC's have turned "private" apartment dwellings into adult boarding schools with a minority or annoying people dictating to the majority.

partyguinness

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

No, if you sign a contract with me that forces you to leap off a cliff, I cannot get the courts to enforce that. Although an extreme case, it underlines the fact that just because you sign something doesn't mean you are bound to stick with it.

If you are going to point out that in grey areas of the law you will more than likely have to stick with your contractual obligations, you would be correct, but nobody is talking about that here.

If you sign a contract and the courts can enforce the conditions against you then you are bound by it i.e. not to erect satellite dishes. There is nothing wrong with that condition.

I am not getting into a debate on Contract Law because:-

a. I have two law degrees (BCL and LLB) including a dissertation based on Contract law and I have sat four Contract law exams in the last 11 years and 90% of my daily work is based on Contract law
b. I am involved with drafting such Management Agreeements (and enforcing) on a regular basis
c. I have been involved in several Court proceedings based on Contract law.

oh yeah...I forgot..
d. I am a solicitor

Unless you can better that you are in no position to advise anyone on Contract law.

What I am really saying is...I know what I am talking about...so there...:D

20goto10

partyguinness wrote: »

If you sign a contract and the courts can enforce the conditions against you then you are bound by it i.e. not to erect satellite dishes. There is nothing wrong with that condition.

OK hot shot so how is that enforced? Every situation is different so I'll be more specific. How is this enforced on someone who has erected a dish on their own private property in a position which does not require planning permission?

partyguinness

20goto10 wrote: »

OK hot shot so how is that enforced? Every situation is different so I'll be more specific. How is this enforced on someone who has erected a dish on their own private property in a position which does not require planning permission?

Are we not talking about Management Company/Block Aprtments here??

When someone buys an apartment in a complex, a long lease is signed viz. 999 years. The lease is usually 30-40 pages long and entered into between the purchaser, the developer or landowner and the management company (3 parties). This lease contains the various conditions including covenants about satellite dishes, hanginig clothes. These covenants are enforceable by the management company as the are party to the lease and they will ultimately own the common areas.

When you buy in an apartment block you are technically a tenant for 999 years and similar all to tenancy agreements, there are conditions.

In relation to your question, is that sitaution based outside an apartment block i.e. just a private house??

I will assume you are talking about an ordinary house outside of an apartment block.

Nobody would agree to that condition in the first place and if they did then a covenant would be inserted into the deed of transfer. If the party breaches that covenant the other party can bring court proceedings including an injunction. Thats how it would be enforced....a court order.

Then if that person ignores and continues with the dish then they are breaching a court order (contempt) and can be jailed although very long way doen the line) but as I stated above who could be arsed...

20goto10

partyguinness wrote: »

Are we not talking about Management Company/Block Aprtments here??

When someone buys an apartment in a complex, a long lease is signed viz. 999 years. The lease is usually 30-40 pages long and entered into between the purchaser, the developer or landowner and the management company (3 parties). This lease contains the various conditions including covenants about satellite dishes, hanginig clothes. These covenants are enforceable by the management company as the are party to the lease and they will ultimately own the common areas.

When you buy in an apartment block you are technically a tenant for 999 years and similar all to tenancy agreements, there are conditions.

In relation to your question, is that sitaution based outside an apartment block i.e. just a private house??

I will assume you are talking about an ordinary house outside of an apartment block.

Nobody would agree to that condition in the first place and if they did then a covenant would be inserted into the deed of transfer. If the party breaches that covenant the other party can bring court proceedings including an injunction. Thats how it would be enforced....a court order.

Then if that person ignores and continues with the dish then they are breaching a court order (contempt) and can be jailed although very long way doen the line) but as I stated above who could be arsed...

I'm talking about a house. I did not agree to the condition but was told sign it or lose your house and deposit. So I took legal advice and was told its not enforceable so go ahead and sign. You're basically saying the contract overrules any laws governing the issue. No disrespect I'm sure you know your stuff but you're hardly going to argue in the favour of the contractee given that you have said

b. I am involved with drafting such Management Agreeements (and enforcing) on a regular basis