Dublin Bus workers threaten strike

AlekSmart

Having just listened to the podcasts of Wednesdays Morning Ireland and the Later LiveLine programme all I can say is My Brain Hurts. :mad:

There is quite obviously a seriously wide gap in the comparative understanding of what the Labour Court and LRC proposals actually are and what many of the Harristown drivers actually believe.

This gap in comprehension was not helped by two spirited contributions from Harristown people which managed to include several references to William Martin Murphy and the general principle of the working classes being repressed.

Then to liven up Liveline another contributor made wide ranging allegations concerning favoritism being shown to South Dublin and in particular Donnybrook in several areas,but most noticably the allocation of Buses and route alignments.

At a time when one would have expected disputing staff to be conscious of the need to clarify and expand on the hard issues we got instead something that amounted to sneering and ridiculing other Drivers who`s only crime is to be employed at a different location

To me it represented the most bizzarre of broadcasts as contributors lined up to bring in all manner of extraneous stuff including references to Political representatives on the Southside.

I`m at a loss to know what is to come next as indications are that some form of Harristown presence will be at other garages tomorrow.

I`m assuming that given the antipathy to Donnybrook and South Dublin shown on Liveline that this means it will be the target of some form of Solidarity display.

Wednesdays media performance did little to advance the Harristown drivers cause and may well have served to alienate some sections of Busworkers who,for example are looking with interest at some 30 duties on the 128 which are up for marking-in,a process which would at least allow a considerable number of spare staff to attain a far more predictable working arrangement.

In comparison,the BAC management rep,Operations Manager Michael Matthews appeared to be the epitome of sound common sense as well as sweetness and light......as I said my brain hurts and I need to lie down in a dark place for several days.

Perhaps some of our NORTH side political figures might be able to take a spin up to Harristown and enquire as to what the hell is going on...???? :eek:

( I would recommend anybody with the computing setup to access RTE.ie and look up Wed`s Morning Ireland and the Liveline then play the interviews and make your own judgement...then post a review on Boards )

lostexpectation

the nonbus driver people phoning in didn't have clue what they were talking about, just being mean spirited.

MiniD

I must agree with Alek on this one. Some drivers are really coming across like the world is against them, without addressing the main cause of this strike. It would serve the drivers better to stick to the facts.

Over the past few days, we've heard stories how drivers are suffering from not seeing their families, paying high house prices, how drivers have to commute from Navan and Offaly, complaining how Donnybrook and Southside routes get better buses.

All of this has nothing whatsoever to do with this strike. Unfortunately, it just sounds like a bunch of winging bus drivers, and results in the public giving you very little support.

It must have been confusing for anybody listening to Liveline, how there are no new buses on the Northside, to open a newspaper or switch on the news and see a fleet of 06D and 07D buses sitting empty behind the drivers on strike.

My name is Mud

spareman wrote: »

Private sector employee works in city center, right? Now tell him he has to start and finish in Tallaght instead of city.

...not forgetting that he'll be paid 45 mins overtime to do this. How long does the Luas red line take to get to Tallaght? About 46 mins I believe.

I find it bizarre that yourself and meanmachine fail to acknowledge that this additional commute is being compensated for.

And before you ask, a "commute" is regular travel, not necesarilly from work to home or vice versa.

This thread, the strike, and the number of "anti-bus" posters (myself included), is a prime example to strengthen the governments future position to the introduction of privatisation.

Quote from Spock, in the Wrath of Khaaaaaaan

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"

Jip

adrieanne__x wrote: »

People are deluded in how much of a state the bus strike is leaving them in. How are 38C customers stranded when they are only a ten minute walk from where they live if they get the 38??

Take a look in the mirror. How often for example have you walked from Tyrrelstown to Corduff ? Try it a bit more often than never and you'll find it's a lot longer than 10 minutes.

MiniD

According to Dublin Bus, the total shift time for a Harristown driver is 7.5 hours.

Built into this 7.5 hours, is 45 minutes commuting time to and from the depot. So a driver is only actually driving a bus for 6 hours.

I really don't see how a 7.5 hour working day is that big a problem.

paulm17781

spareman wrote: »

Im just amazed by this post? Have you contacted the guiness book of records yet?

It turns out I was getting the 8.00Am 4, that means it takes 1hr10 to traverse the city. Still less than 46 mins from O'Connell st to Harristown.

Alek, well put.

MOH

spareman wrote: »

This is the best post Ive seen on this thread.

Because it's one of the minority agreeing with you?

SimonSays

dmfod wrote: »

I'm really disappointed by the amount of private sector workers complaining about the strike on the grounds that any time their management wants to make their working conditions worse they just have to lie down and take it- so therefore public sector workers should as well. This seems completely wrongheaded to me. The problem here is not that Dublin Bus workers have a union which defends their hard-won rights, but that many private sector workers don't. The problem for private sector workers is not public sector workers, but management and employers. If anything private sector workers should follow the example of Dublin Bus workers in standing up for their rights. All workers (bar the guards I think) have a legal right to form unions and to strike, and this is the only way to prevent greedy managers and employers from exploiting workers even more than they already do.

As to a previous poster who said that if workers in his workplace went on strike they would be sacked- that is illegal- and rather than sneering at co-workers who have the courage to stand up for themselves (which is a difficult and scary thing to do in a company with an anti-union atttiude) and congratulating himself on his supposed hard-nosed realism, he should educate himself on his rights and start fighting for them. That is what Dublin Bus workers are doing and anybody who is an employee, public or private, should have the commonsense to support them. It may inconvenience you in the short term, but in the long run if unions are defeated, it will make all of our working lives far far worse.

(By the way I don't work in Dublin Bus before anyone asks & it took me 1 1/4 to get from Stoneybatter to the Ballymun road the other day due to lack of 4s & 83s so I am also personally affected by the strike)

Fighting for your hard earned rights. To what exactly, the right to strike because you you have to pull an extra carriage on a train or have to be trained to drive a different train to the one your used to, the right to strike because you have to change a light bulb its not your job to change. These were real strikes. As times change, businesses and services need to adapt to stay productive. There therefore has to be some flexibility in terms of work practices. This is where the public and private sectors deviate. I worked in a County Council for years and ,I’m sorry if this offends anyone, but there is absolutely a culture of lazyness in the public sector, that their entitled to a stress free working environment. Any attempt, no matter how trivia, to change work practices and improve efficiency was fought tooth and nail. These changes werent ruining their private lives, they wouldn’t have to work under impossible conditions, they’d just have to work. For public servents, the words ‘Its not my job to do that’ must be first they learn. Nobody in Celtic Tiger Ireland is ‘Entitled’ to that, if we all were then we’d be still stuck in the days of 20% unemployment and mass emigration. In the private sector we have to work damn hard and be flexibile to changing circumstance to maintain our lifestyles and then have to rely on inefficient public services across the board because the staff within won’t.

spareman

MOH wrote: »

Because it's one of the minority agreeing with you?

People here have already said how they have to work extra hours in the evening and weekends without pay or they would be sacked, Im not surprised kids are growing up in crèche's here, People need to make a stand against greedy empoyer's. Its all well and good saying your doing for the good of the company, but when these companies are making hugh profit margins on your backs its just not right. Ive heard people here say they have to work bloody dam hard, and hugh amounts of overtime to survive, We as bus driver's are the same, Yes our average working day is 7.5 hours, thats work time in the seat, this figure does not include our break which could be up to 5 hours. On top of this we have to do overtime to survive. I myself need to work at least 10 hours overtime, and my wife works full time too, On my late week I would rarely see my wife or kids. I know this has nothing to do with the current strike, But Im just wondering how many people think this is right, Should we be working extra hours with no pay because we like the celtic tiger, or because we keep the boss happy, or because we live in a so called modern society. I think its sad that people in Ireland can not afford to put there family first.

bk

spareman wrote: »

Private sector employee works in city center, right? Now tell him he has to start and finish in Tallaght instead of city.

Mate, it happens all time, offices frequently move. He either has to decide to move with the office or quiet his job and get a job with another company.

Been there, done that.

Of course if he was actually going to get paid for the trip from the city centre to Tallaght he might not mind (Luas from city centre to Tallaght takes about 45 minutes).

spareman

Question for people against the strike!!
Old System
Bus driver starts at Harristown at 8am and finishes at 4pm. (last week)
New System
Bus driver starts at Harristown at 8am, makes his way to take up a bus at O connell bridge at 08.45, Hands bus to another driver in the city at 3.15pm and makes his way out to Harristown to finish at 4pm.

Does anyone think this may lead to delay's for passengers?

Cervantes

Question for strikers!

Go directly to town
Clock in there
Drive bus
Finish shift in town
Clock out there
Go home

Not sure where the problem with the above lies?

spareman

Cervantes wrote: »

Question for strikers!

Go directly to town
Clock in there
Drive bus
Finish shift in town
Clock out there
Go home

Not sure where the problem with the above lies?

What about the driver who has to take the bus at 3.15pm and needs his car in the garage as there is no public transport when his shift ends?

paulm17781

spareman wrote: »

Question for people against the strike!!
Old System
Bus driver starts at Harristown at 8am and finishes at 4pm. (last week)
New System
Bus driver starts at Harristown at 8am, makes his way to take up a bus at O connell bridge at 08.45, Hands bus to another driver in the city at 3.15pm and makes his way out to Harristown to finish at 4pm.

Does anyone think this may lead to delay's for passengers?

I have no idea perhaps, none the less we would have a service, unlike now. How does this add to the working day?

Also, regarding "greedy employers" I work hard and am paid well for working hard. The harder I work, the higher my annual pay rises will be. This is little to do with greedy employers, it is how to succeed in the real world.

MOH

spareman wrote: »

Question for people against the strike!!
Old System
Bus driver starts at Harristown at 8am and finishes at 4pm. (last week)
New System
Bus driver starts at Harristown at 8am, makes his way to take up a bus at O connell bridge at 08.45, Hands bus to another driver in the city at 3.15pm and makes his way out to Harristown to finish at 4pm.

Does anyone think this may lead to delay's for passengers?

a) No reason he can't go straight to town for 8am and finish there at 4pm, like any other commuter. In that example, no need to go to Harristown at all.

b) Under the old system, is he not driving an empty bus to/from the depot anyway? (unless it's a 27B/83)

So in answer to your question, no difference for passengers. (Apart from the 4 days so far of strike disruption).

spareman

paulm17781 wrote: »

I have no idea perhaps, none the less we would have a service, unlike now. How does this add to the working day

Drivers would need to be in Harristown at 7.30am at the latest to ensure they are at O Connell street to take the bus, and the same coming back to the garage, People have often complained here that they had to wait 20/30 mins for a so called high frequency service. Im asking do you think this would work, if drivers operated to the exact rule, ie turn up in harristown at 08.15 when they should be taking a bus at 9am.

MOH

spareman wrote: »

What about the driver who has to take the bus at 3.15pm and needs his car in the garage as there is no public transport when his shift ends?

Wtf? You give an example, as soon as people point out there's no problem you change it?!

OK, the 3.15 driver parks his car at Harristown and uses the paid 46 minutes to get into town for 3.15, which is doable since it's not peak time. Afterwards he drives the bus back to the depot as he always did.

(And your question is allegedly about the affect on passengers, not how a driver gets home)

spareman wrote: »

Drivers would need to be in Harristown at 7.30am at the latest to ensure they are at O Connell street to take the bus, and the same coming back to the garage, People have often complained here that they had to wait 20/30 mins for a so called high frequency service. Im asking do you think this would work, if drivers operated to the exact rule, ie turn up in harristown at 08.15 when they should be taking a bus at 9am.

What is this obsession with Harristown? If the driver can clock in in town, he doesn't need to go to Harristown for 8.15, he goes straight to town for 9.00, like tens of thousands of other people do every day.

popebenny16

Does the Financial Regulator bus operate out of Harristown?

spareman

MOH wrote: »

a) No reason he can't go straight to town for 8am and finish there at 4pm, like any other commuter. In that example, no need to go to Harristown at all.

b) Under the old system, is he not driving an empty bus to/from the depot anyway? (unless it's a 27B/83)

So in answer to your question, no difference for passengers. (Apart from the 4 days so far of strike disruption).

If the driver starts or finishes his shift outside the hours of public transport he will need to leave his car in the garage. If a driver was to commute to the city by bus or train to start at 9am and finish in Harristown at 5pm, I presume it would be a much Longer commute home from harristown by public transport, at 5pm, He would probably have to go back to the city to make a connection for home.

MiniD

spareman wrote: »

If a driver was to commute to the city by bus or train to start at 9am and finish in Harristown at 5pm, I presume it would be a much Longer commute home from harristown by public transport, at 5pm, He would probably have to go back to the city to make a connection for home.

In that example you just gave, the driver could clock in and clock out in the City Centre, they wouldn't have to go to Harristown at all. Thousands of people manage to commute to the city to start work at 9am. Why should it be any different for a bus driver?

spareman

MOH wrote: »

Wtf? You give an example, as soon as people point out there's no problem you change it?!

OK, the 3.15 driver parks his car at Harristown and uses the paid 46 minutes to get into town for 3.15, which is doable since it's not peak time. Afterwards he drives the bus back to the depot as he always did.

So you think this is doable everyday of the week and he would never be delayed? If he leaves Harristown at 2.29pm not on a bus but out to the bus stop to wait for a bus, he will always make it to O connell bridge for 3.15pm, and remember it's off peak so chances are the bus he is taking up could be 10 mins early.
How can you not see the problem here???????

What is this obsession with Harristown? If the driver can clock in in town, he doesn't need to go to Harristown for 8.15, he goes straight to town for 9.00, like tens of thousands of other people do every day.

Harristown is at the center of this dispute, this is where the driver's shift offically starts and ends, thosands of commuter's do travel into the city everyday, I think it may be slightly easier to get a bus to navan from the city in the evening, rather than harristown where the driver had to leave his bus.

MOH

spareman wrote: »

If the driver starts or finishes his shift outside the hours of public transport he will need to leave his car in the garage. If a driver was to commute to the city by bus or train to start at 9am and finish in Harristown at 5pm, I presume it would be a much Longer commute home from harristown by public transport, at 5pm, He would probably have to go back to the city to make a connection for home.

Why is he finishing in Harristown at 5pm? Why is he not just handing the bus over to another driver in the city centre?

spareman

MiniD wrote: »

In that example you just gave, the driver could clock in and clock out in the City Centre, they wouldn't have to go to Harristown at all. Thousands of people manage to commute to the city to start work at 9am. Why should it be any different for a bus driver?

Not all shifts will start and finish in the city, some may start there and finish in the garage or vice versa.

bk

spareman wrote: »

If a driver was to commute to the city by bus or train to start at 9am and finish in Harristown at 5pm, I presume it would be a much Longer commute home from harristown by public transport, at 5pm, He would probably have to go back to the city to make a connection for home.

But in this situation the driver doesn't need to go back to Harristown, he can simply clock in and off at O'Connell street, the bus is handed off to the next driver in the city centre.

spareman

MOH wrote: »

Why is he finishing in Harristown at 5pm? Why is he not just handing the bus over to another driver in the city centre?

After rush hour alot of buses are brought back to the garage, 5pm is just the example Im using it could be 7pm,8pm,9pm. whatever.

bk

spareman wrote: »

Not all shifts will start and finish in the city, some may start there and finish in the garage or vice versa.

Are you seriously trying to tell us that they take an empty bus back to the garage at the 5pm peak time, rather then just handing over to the next driver in the city centre!!!

And this is supposed to be better for the public???

I think your now just stretching to find a scenario that you might get sympathy for because all the previous scenarios you mention are getting zero sympathy.

SimonSays

spareman wrote: »

Question for people against the strike!!
Old System
Bus driver starts at Harristown at 8am and finishes at 4pm. (last week)
New System
Bus driver starts at Harristown at 8am, makes his way to take up a bus at O connell bridge at 08.45, Hands bus to another driver in the city at 3.15pm and makes his way out to Harristown to finish at 4pm.

Does anyone think this may lead to delay's for passengers?

Am I missing something here!.

As I'm interpreting it, in either the old or new system, the drivers working hours are still from 8-4, its how they operate within those hours that will change. The only difference is that instead of driving the bus back to Harristown, they have to get a lift back, but that journey period is still within their shift time. So whether they have to drive to work in Harristown is irrelevant as their still finishing up there at the same time anyway.

If they they had to clock out in the City Centre at 4.00 and then make their way back to Harristown, I'd get why their upset, but I really dont see what the issue is otherwise.

My name is Mud

So the drivers know what is best for the customers, and therefore strike?

I wonder if doctors could do the same, lets say, if they were forced to go on house calls and get back to the office/home again?

In the risk of repeating myself, holding 60,000 people to ransom for the needs of 300 (max) drivers is madness. Thats half a percent of 60,000 people.

Needs of few is clearly greater than needs of many in this case

Thank you trade unions, thank you! Doing a great job, but just get a verbal agreement, just in case!

Jip

I started another thread about this but it's probably better in here.

According to RTE 1 o'clock news there were scuffles outside the NBRUs heaquarters after the march yesterday with some members refused access to the premises. It's being claimed that some members are trying to run the pickets on the basis of a political agenda which others aren't agreeing with, hence the NBRU saying they won't sanction the strikes at other depots unless the members there have been balloted, obviously some NBRU members want unofficial action to spread throughout Dublin Bus.

Says it all really, once again it has nothing to do with the good of the public, it's all for selfish reasons.

Unless of course some of our Dublin Bus members on this site are going to claim yet again that RTE are falsifying stories.

MOH

spareman wrote: »

So you think this is doable everyday of the week and he would never be delayed? If he leaves Harristown at 2.29pm not on a bus but out to the bus stop to wait for a bus, he will always make it to O connell bridge for 3.15pm, and remember it's off peak so chances are the bus he is taking up could be 10 mins early.
How can you not see the problem here???????

One solution: timetable a bus to run into town at that time. By your logic is should make it in early since it's not peak time.

Harristown is at the center of this dispute, this is where the driver's shift offically starts and ends, thosands of commuter's do travel into the city everyday, I think it may be slightly easier to get a bus to navan from the city in the evening, rather than harristown where the driver had to leave his bus.

Currently starts and ends. Isn't the whole issue that this is changing?

MiniD

I really don't buy the line that drivers are doing this for the passengers sake. No passenger asked them to go on strike. Listening to the drivers being interviewed this week really highlighted the mess that is going on. When drivers begin moaning about house prices, family life, other garages and creating a Northside v Southside issue, it shows no organisation between unions and the drivers and immediately causes annoyance with passengers.

AlekSmart

I see RTE News website is carrying a statement from the NBRU in which it says there will be No further extension of the Harristown action until a Full ballot is held.

Reading between these lines one can detect a certain dawning of reality on the part of senior Union people.
There is a sense within the greater body of Buswokers that there are many other issues at hand which could and should be addressed and which might merit strong action to progress.

Included in these are a very poor company pension scheme which has been neglected over many years of negotiated improvements in other areas.

Another constant is the vast increase in "Sparemen" and the lack of duties which could be termed to conform to their descriptions eg: A spare drivers EARLY shift can and often does end at up to 2200 hrs (often in a location remote from the starting point)

There are ongoing,and in some garages,serious problems concerning the implimentation of the recently modified Disciplinary and Grieviance procedures.

As Joe Duffy was at pains to point out on the Liveline programme,Dublin Bus HAS performed very well.
It has succesfully operated within a highly unusual regulatory and financial situation and many of it`s systems DO actually work effectively and efficiently.

For example Dublin Bus`s Fleet Availability and Engineers Holdings (Number of vehicles unavailable for service due to maintanance) is among the lowest in the EU.

The Companys fleet replacement programme has been carried out in a highly focused manner with a very strong commercially focused relationship with it`s major suppliers Volvo and Alexander Dennis,which far surpasses some of the terms which other larger operators have managed to negotiate.

None of this is excuses failing on Management`s part and indeed there are many area`s where Management inertia continues to restrict its Platform Staff in their ability to perform at maximum efficiency.

Dublin Bus has its it`s good managers and it`s mediocre one`s like many organizations,public and private and it should be those mediocre one`s that Union and Staff focus should be pinpointing.

So far in this dispute we have not seen any TANGIBLE case for a full scale strike in the same manner as the decrepit pension scheme most certainly does provide.

Both the Harristown action-group and the Trade Unions need to sit down PDQ and be VERY certain of what their next move should be.
Their decisions over the next 24 hours may well chart the future direction for ALL of Dublin`s Public Bus Services so some deep and reflective thinking is called for.

It may not be an easy pill to swallow,but based upon what Management have been outlining the Trades Unions and Local activists have simply been outmanouvered.

As a result the Harristown staff are now somehat exposed and in that case it`s no disgrace to make a strategic retreat to regroup and reassess their strategy.

To use a military history analogy,one only has to look at how Adolf Hitler consistently refused to acknowledge or act upon the sensible advice of some of his most experienced generals simply because that advice did`nt concur with his belief`s.

Instead,Adolf H often had these men executed or demoted and packed off to the Eastern Front.......He played the wrong card and lost ! .....lets hope our boy`s are looking at a FULL deck when they`re playing this hand.....

RuggieBear

Godwin's law ftw:p

vandermeyde

Some excellent points there from AlekSmart.....judging from the murmurings it seems that the upper echelon's of the union movement have seen the writing on the wall as regards this dispute and are trying their damnedest to keep it localised and get a solution pretty quick (the only solution is to suck it up and go back to work)...

against that, there's the power struggle within the union movement itself with the more radical elements railing against the "percieved" cosiness of the mainstream union movement with the other "social partnership" partners...

They've picked the wrong battle, at the wrong time on the wrong stage and if this escalates could mark a seminal moment in the history of the union movement in this country.

Strange days.

dmfod

bk wrote: »

I disagree completely, in the private sector you often need to be flexible and responsive to a changing working place.

In the private sector if your employer wants to change working practises, then you always have the option to leave and get a job elsewhere.

The reason why unions don't work in the private sector in the modern world, is that we compete globally and the employers always have the right to pick up and leave for a country without unions.

Maybe now while we're in the middle of an economic boom you have the option to leave an unpleasant job and get one elsewhere, but this is certainly not always true. What if there is high unemployment? Then you're stuck in your job regardless of how unreasonable your boss is. In such a situation the only way you can protect yourself is through a union.

Not all workers can be as 'flexible' as you. For example the labour market is very biased against older workers who find it extremely difficult to find a new job if they have to leave one where they have worked for many years.

Also the notion that all companies can simply get up and move to a third world country is misleading and only applies to certain industries where comparable skills and infrastructure exist in low wage economies. In fact many businesses have to be based in Ireland for one reason or another. This idea that all companies can leave at the drop of a hat is often used as an excuse for justifying employers exploiting people here.

In any case the mobility of business has been facilitated by the introduction of laws allowing free trade and investment - laws introduced by governments which ultimately can be changed if enough people want them to be.

spareman

I am not in favour of strike, I do believe the driver's have a case, I believe the driver's were forced into strike by management who would not conduct proper negotiations with staff, They had no interest on the implications for staff, Just like most of you here they would not listen to or had any interest in any points made by drivers or unions. I think every driver should go back to work, we should have a work to rule across all garages, turning up exactly as our roster tells us too and then travel to the city to take a bus.
In Donnybrook where I work we are given 4/5 mins to get out to the church to take up while in reality if we are not there 15 mins early passengers can be delayed, 30 mins to get into the city, 40 mins to get to Dun Loaghaire. These are approx journey times on buses, they do not include walking to bus stops and waiting for buses, If every driver done exactly what we are supposed to do and no more or no less the whole bus network would collapse overnight. Drivers on the 111 would not service the 75 route to keep the service up. Drivers asked to hang back or move up to cover gaps, Drivers asked to work other routes to fill in gaps, We should do what we are required to do and no more, why should we work for free, turn up early for shifts to ensure passengers are not left waiting.

Someone said management had an agenda for this strike, Well Im now beginning to believe this, I seen management do something yesterday that would escalate this strike with imediate affect if drivers in Harristown knew about it. Please dont ask me to explain more untill the strike is over.

Im finished answering questions here, It doesnt matter what I say people will find a way to twist it and put a spin on it, You may all like to work for free and put in an extra few hours at the weekend without pay, but bus drivers will not, our pay is basic enough as it is without working for free.

dmfod

paulm17781 wrote: »

Also, regarding "greedy employers" I work hard and am paid well for working hard. The harder I work, the higher my annual pay rises will be. This is little to do with greedy employers, it is how to succeed in the real world.

Good for you, but do you really think this is true for workers across the board? Lots of workers work very hard but receive very low pay. Indeed many unpleasant and/or difficult jobs are low paid -like cleaning and childminding for example. Do you think cleaners employed by external contractors get performance-linked pay increases? I doubt it.

Why do you think women still get paid less per hour than men? Do they work less hard? Certainly not. Wage rates are at least as much determined by power as by how hard you work and in our system where employers have most of the power they earn more money and pay us less than we deserve.

Unions are an attempt to redress this power imbalance. Without them we would not have 8 hour days, sick pay, pensions or other benefits. Think of the situation in the 'private sector' before unions existed. You had children working as virtual slaves in dangerous conditions in privately-owned factories. Same situation in much of the third world today.

If you have ok working conditions today it is largely due to the historical work of trade unions - even if you don't have the sense to join one today.

spareman

Ive anwsered questions here since sunday, Now maybe I can ask a few questions myself.

Questions for Aleksmart,

Do you now work for the Dublin Bus public relations office or are you still a bus driver?

Haven't I read articles in the Dublin buzz mag (managements internal news for staff) wrote by you? I seem to remember your style of writing from somewhere before for some reason.

RuggieBear

I think the work to rule would have been the way to go. It would be irritating but at least us general public would realise the (perhaps crazy) demands been put on the drivers.

Instead, I feel if i have to endure another commute home like the one i suffered last night, I'd gladly see the strikers sacked.

bk

dmfod wrote: »

Maybe now while we're in the middle of an economic boom you have the option to leave an unpleasant job and get one elsewhere, but this is certainly not always true. What if there is high unemployment? Then you're stuck in your job regardless of how unreasonable your boss is. In such a situation the only way you can protect yourself is through a union.

But you see why don't we have high unemployment any more? What has caused the economic boom?

In my opinion we now have such low unemployment exactly because we left behind the old ways of inflexible, inefficient, union driven work practises.

Back in the old days (just 20 years ago) when the unions were strong and they would go out on strike at the drop of a hat and all other union workers would join their brothers in strike, crippling the country and the economy, we had 20% unemployment and we had the brightest young people leaving college and school and getting straight on a boat heading for the US and the UK.

By cutting out the strikes and normalising labour relationship's (Labour Court, LRC, national agreements, etc.) and learning to become more flexible and efficient in our work practices, we have all helped to create the economic boom and the low unemployment. And DB drivers have all benefited from all this, there is now probably twice as many DB drivers as any time in the past.

Rather then protecting the rights of a few in a cosy job for life that they probably got because their Dad use to work there, we have a situation where by being a little bit more flexible and reasonable, everyone benefits.

paulm17781

dmfod wrote: »

Good for you, but do you really think this is true for workers across the board? Lots of workers work very hard but receive very low pay. Indeed many unpleasant and/or difficult jobs are low paid -like cleaning and childminding for example. Do you think cleaners employed by external contractors get performance-linked pay increases? I doubt it.

Sticks and stones mate. I doubt cleaners decide to come in on Saturday to put in a few extra hours cleaning time. They do their shift and rightly so.

Spareman wrote:

I am not in favour of strike, I do believe the driver's have a case, I believe the driver's were forced into strike by management who would not conduct proper negotiations with staff, They had no interest on the implications for staff, Just like most of you here they would not listen to or had any interest in any points made by drivers or unions. I think every driver should go back to work, we should have a work to rule across all garages, turning up exactly as our roster tells us too and then travel to the city to take a bus.

I think what you are missing is that most of us (me anyway) had total sympathy until the strike started. We have all seen too many ridiculous CIE strikes over the years (8 carriage DARTS FFS). Once the strike starts people immediately lose sympathy. I don't have an idea how this could have been handled better, labour court springs to mind (oh wait) but once your actions affect the people whose support you need (and other colleagues FFS) people lose sympathy straight away. Sad but true, there is little public sympathy for strikes in the public sector in modern day Ireland.

dmfod

bk wrote: »

But you see why don't we have high unemployment any more? What has caused the economic boom?

In my opinion we now have such low unemployment exactly because we left behind the old ways of inflexible, inefficient, union driven work practises.

Back in the old days (just 20 years ago) when the unions were strong and they would go out on strike at the drop of a hat and all other union workers would join their brothers in strike, crippling the country and the economy, we had 20% unemployment and we had the brightest young people leaving college and school and getting straight on a boat heading for the US and the UK.

By cutting out the strikes and normalising labour relationship's (Labour Court, LRC, national agreements, etc.) and learning to become more flexible and efficient in our work practices, we have all helped to create the economic boom and the low unemployment. And DB drivers have all benefited from all this, there is now probably twice as many DB drivers as any time in the past.

Rather then protecting the rights of a few in a cosy job for life that they probably got because their Dad use to work there, we have a situation where by being a little bit more flexible and reasonable, everyone benefits.

This is a very simplistic interpretation of why we had a boom. What about low corporation tax, an educated population, being English-speaking, economic globalisation etc? Unions did not cause poverty in Ireland before the boom, rather they helped reduce the effects of economic recession on ordinary people. Without them it would have been much worse. If having weak or non-existent unions causes booms, why did we have a famine in the 1840s? No one was unionised then after all so with your one-factor logic we should all have been rolling in it.

Ireland is one of the most globalised economies in the world. If there was a global recession tomorrow we'd be in serious trouble and due to the nature of our economy with its dependence on foreign investment there would be precious little we could do about it - in the short term at least. When that happens (as it always does, capitalism is cyclical after all and will always experience booms an busts), non-unionised workers will be in a much worse position than unionised workers. Try being 'flexible' then and see how far it gets you.

meanmachine3

i'm going to hold off with the tude for a while.
i asked a question here a few days ago and it was this
"what would you think if me and my comrades went on strike last week looking for a new timetable.
would you still think the same way or would your attitudes be different?"

all said no.

a number of years ago drivers on a certain route went on strike and didn't involve any other route. they got a new timetable and it's worked ever since or nearly. drivers were happy and the locals were happy.
alot of you are rambling on about peak time.
nowadays there aint such a thing. traffic can be mayhem upto about 9pm.
city centre at night especially at weekends around georges street dame street etc is a no go area. so less of the peak time please. 23.30 buses from o'connell street getting there around mid-night
there aint such thing anymore

dmfod

paulm17781 wrote: »

Sticks and stones mate. I doubt cleaners decide to come in on Saturday to put in a few extra hours cleaning time. They do their shift and rightly so.

previous post: "Also, regarding "greedy employers" I work hard and am paid well for working hard. The harder I work, the higher my annual pay rises will be. This is little to do with greedy employers, it is how to succeed in the real world."

I notice you only responded to one section of my post & ignored the rest!

Anyway now you are saying that what you mean by working hard is doing extra hours - I assumed when you talked about working hard you meant the intensity of your work rather than extra hours.

I agree that of course you should get paid for extra hours! Otherwise you are working for free, or to put it another way having a pay cut overall. I wonder why you're happy to work for nothing now in the hope of future pay rises though. Aren't you in effect giving your employer an interest-free loan- that's assuming he does give you a rise later? To put it another way would you be happy if your employer said he couldn't pay you part of your wages til your next pay review -because that's effectively what he's doing at the moment if you're coming in on Saturdays.

Don't mean to be hostile, maybe your eventual pay increase will dwarf any extra hours you do- but do you keep track of them to check? And do you think everybody who gets paid more than you in your company works harder than you do?

Jip

So spareman and meanmachine, what's your views on the split within the NBRU with regards to parts of it trying to politicise it and have it nothing to do with, to once again trot out the tired expresion, "The good of the public " ?
Spareman is saying Dublin Bus management have an agenda, well it's apparently parts of the NBRU that have an agenda.

bk

dmfod wrote: »

When that happens (as it always does, capitalism is cyclical after all and will always experience booms an busts), non-unionised workers will be in a much worse position than unionised workers. Try being 'flexible' then and see how far it gets you.

Actually you mean public sector workers not unionised workers.

20 years ago my father worked in a clothing factory, they were unionised and they went on strike. The owners of the factory shrugged their shoulders, closed the factory and moved to Turkey.

If you are unionised or not during a down turn means little, there is simply nothing to stop the employer from closing up shop and moving elsewhere.

It is only those in the public sector where it is almost impossible to get fired who can feel all cosy about their jobs.

BTW I've actually between hit by a down turn myself, working in IT we were all hit during the dotcom bust in 2002. Yet by being flexible we now have a healthy IT industry again in Ireland.

Had we all marched around on strike in 2002, trying to save our jobs then, it would probably have taken the IT far longer to recover then it has.

MOH

meanmachine3 wrote: »

i'm going to hold off with the tude for a while.
i asked a question here a few days ago and it was this
"what would you think if me and my comrades went on strike last week looking for a new timetable.
would you still think the same way or would your attitudes be different?"

all said no.

By "all said no" you mean all said they would support the drivers?

Looking back you seem to have received two direct replies to your question (one from me), both saying their attitude wouldn't be any different.

a number of years ago drivers on a certain route went on strike and didn't involve any other route. they got a new timetable and it's worked ever since or nearly. drivers were happy and the locals were happy.
alot of you are rambling on about peak time.
nowadays there aint such a thing. traffic can be mayhem upto about 9pm.
city centre at night especially at weekends around georges street dame street etc is a no go area. so less of the peak time please. 23.30 buses from o'connell street getting there around mid-night
there aint such thing anymore

I've travelled a lot this year by taxi from Rathmines to D5 mainly around 7.30-8.00. Straight Georges St - Dame St - up the quays.
(the 128 could have saved me a lot of time and money if its introduction hadn't been delayed by you lot)
It never once took me more than 15 minutes to hit the quays. It actually took longer to get out the north strand due to road works.

I know it's chaos weekends, but it's ridiculous to imply its bumper to bumper until 9pm every night.

paulm17781

dmfod wrote: »

I notice you only responded to one section of my post & ignored the rest!

I don't have time to write an essay, ironically I'm in work. Now, my point is I put in extra hours when needed for job satisfaction (I would rather do something well and be proud than quickly and badly). When I'm busy I will work very intensely (currently waiting on 3 suppliers, hence the free time).

In answer to your question, there are 3 women in my company (40 people) the CEO is a woman. Proportionately, women get paid more here.

I once tried to leave my job (unhappy) I got a promotion as I work hard, that kept. If I did that every time things changed, I'd be fired and rightly so. I have a good working relationship with management and that is how a work environment should be.

Do you honestly think the child workers of time gone by or the railway workers who built and died building our railways would be proud of where unionization has gone? They fought for there lives, not things like an 11km commute. They would mock modern unions for being pussies compared to what they had to go through. Modern CIE unions have no idea what those boys went through (nor do I).

dmfod wrote: »

I notice you only responded to one section of my post & ignored the rest!

Also, please don't do that, I never intentionally ignore a question / post addressed to me, what you wrote had little to do with the point I made so I assumed it was a general comment. Perhaps it wasn't intentional but comments like that sounds snide and are irritating.

meanmachine3

the only comment i have made regarding the unions as far as i recall is that it's compulary for all dublin bus emplyees to join a union when starting in dublin bus.
that is the only comment and shall be the only comment i make regarding the union issue,whether they are right or wrong,whether theres a split or not.
MOH
i'm saying if we went on strike looking for a new timetable we WOULD NOT have to support of the public even if it were in their best interests