If you seen for yourself would you believe?

JimiTime

bluewolf wrote: »

A few party tricks certainly wouldn't make me worship your god, no.

Whens your next party bluewolf? read the flippin hypothetical question I posed. Making a blind man see and a paraplegic walk is hardly a party trick now is it. i asked you to assume it is genuine, I.E. you see its not a trick, in fact its your brother who you've known all your life, and has been blind since birth. he then see's. Would you say 'nice party trick'?

fair enough, you don't believe its the Holy Spirit, or you still don't follow Christ even if you do believe its Holy Spirit, but calling such a thing a party trick

stevejazzx

JimiTime wrote: »

TBH, why would you post in it then? Other posters have merely exerted an opinion on it so why don't you either choose to or not? don't just throw stones at it The question arose in the Christianity forum, where certain folk were talking about lack of evidence for Jesus Christ. I decided to ask where the non-believers are (here), if they did see such evidence, would they follow Christ. Whats nonsensical about that?

Look Scofflaw already answered this, someone turning up now and pulling a thousand fishes out of a bag won't make me a follower of Jesus Christ. It'd simply make me say what took you so long? If you were going to this at all - which by all acounts of God having infinite knowledge then he would've known in advance - why did you leave it until now? There's only one answer to that and it's the brilliant
'God works in mysterious ways' clause that the christians like to throw up every now and then.
Your proposition is deeply flawed, elementary and nonsensical. You seem to think that the only barrier between a believer and a non believer is lack of evidence in miracles. It's not, there are countless barriers between us including the actual religous organisation itself, a celestial north korea as Hitchens calls it. If he is real and all powerful then he is, by all accounts a dictator. Why would I want to worship him becasue he can do miralces? Why does he need worship if he so powerful, why request worship, why demand it? Is he an insecure all powerful being?
Being part of church and implementing it's philosophy into my life is not something I would consider, based on the fact that I disagree with how the church works and how it wants to control people and how they live.
Besides if somehow a miraculous entity pertaining exclusively to chirstianity was to make himself known to us wouldn't he interfering with our free wil and how we decide to have faith or not thereby rendering the central dogma of christianity pointless? You raised the question without considering the theological implications of the matter. I found that irritating becasue it showed that you have incomplete understanding of the very thing you are trying to address.

JimiTime

JimiTime wrote: »

Whens your next party bluewolf? read the flippin hypothetical question I posed. Making a blind man see and a paraplegic walk is hardly a party trick now is it. i asked you to assume it is genuine, I.E. you see its not a trick, in fact its your brother who you've known all your life, and has been blind since birth. he then see's. Would you say 'nice party trick'?

fair enough, you don't believe its the Holy Spirit, or you still don't follow Christ even if you do believe its Holy Spirit, but calling such a thing a party trick

What, you think an omnipotent god making a blind man see is some magnificent feat?

JimiTime

The Chessplayer wrote: »

I certainly would NOT follow Christ if his spelling and grammar was as atrocious as the poster's.

:rolleyes: theres always one.

Red Hand

JimiTime wrote: »

Whens your next party bluewolf? read the flippin hypothetical question I posed. Making a blind man see and a paraplegic walk is hardly a party trick now is it. i asked you to assume it is genuine, I.E. you see its not a trick, in fact its your brother who you've known all your life, and has been blind since birth. he then see's. Would you say 'nice party trick'?

To be fair, both examples you give could be within the reach of a highly advanced technological society. You could be a modern day Cortez and we the Aztecs.:)

JimiTime

bluewolf wrote: »

What, you think an omnipotent god making a blind man see is some magnificent feat?

Its certainly not 'a party trick', but i think you're just being pedantic.

Zombrex

stevejazzx wrote: »

a celestial north korea as Hitchens calls it.

LOL

Must remember that one

JimiTime

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

To be fair, both examples you give could be within the reach of a highly advanced technological society. You could be a modern day Cortez and we the Aztecs.:)

Ok, so you would still be a sceptic. fair enough.

Sangre

You'd need to do something really fantastic to make me believe, like make the Statute of Liberty disappear.

thefinalstage

Nanites will repair nearly any affliction. They are 20 or so years off though..

Red Hand

Sangre wrote: »

You'd need to do something really fantastic to make me believe, like make the Statute of Liberty disappear.

Make the Statue of Liberty do the Texas Two Step, you mean!:p

the_syco

JimiTime wrote: »

Making a blind man see and a paraplegic walk is hardly a party trick now is it. i asked you to assume it is genuine, I.E. you see its not a trick, in fact its your brother who you've known all your life, and has been blind since birth. he then see's. Would you say 'nice party trick'?

Actually, I'd wonder what sort of evil sick god made him blind in the first place, and then bring you to Area 51:D

Zombrex

the_syco wrote: »

Actually, I'd wonder what sort of evil sick god made him blind in the first place, and then bring you to Area 51:D

bring out the anal probe ...

anyway, there seems to be an interesting assumption that belief should automatically lead to worship. As steve says that isn't actually true, as this thread some what demonstrates.

I would wonder if the theists can actually understand that position, or will it be dismissed with a Bible quote.

JimiTime

stevejazzx wrote: »

Look Scofflaw already answered this, someone turning up now and pulling a thousand fishes out of a bag won't make me a follower of Jesus Christ. It'd simply make me say what took you so long? If you were going to this at all - which by all acounts of God having infinite knowledge then he would've known in advance - why did you leave it until now? There's only one answer to that and it's the brilliant
'God works in mysterious ways' clause that the christians like to throw up every now and then.
Your proposition is deeply flawed, elementary and nonsensical. You seem to think that the only barrier between a believer and a non believer is lack of evidence in miracles. It's not, there are countless barriers between us including the actual religous organisation itself, a celestial north korea as Hitchens calls it. If he is real and all powerful then he is, by all accounts a dicdator. Why would I want to worship him becasue he can do miralces? Why does he need worship if he so powerful, why request worship, why demand it? Is he an insecure all powerful being?
Being part of church and implementing it's philosophy into my life is not something I would consider, based on the fact that I disagree with how the church works and how it wants to control people and how they live.
Besides if somehow a miraculous entity pertaining exclusively to chirstianity was to make himself known to us wouldn't he interfering with our free wil and how we decide to have faith or not thereby rendering the central dogam of christianity pointless? You raised the question without considering the theological implications of the matter. I found that irritating becasue it showed that you have incomplete understanding of the very thing you are trying to address.

Phew. that was a bit angry. I take that as a no then?:) Just to let you know, i just asked a question. My hypothesis assumes nothing. It merely asks, if you saw signs of Christ, would you believe, in turn would you follow. I realise that there are those out there who are atheist etc for differing reasons. Contrary to what you assume, Scofflaws view that no matter what happened, he would not worship God prompted my question to the rest of the A&A forum. So 0/10 steve. But thanks for answering.

JimiTime

the_syco wrote: »

Actually, I'd wonder what sort of evil sick god made him blind in the first place, and then bring you to Area 51:D

Thats cool, that answers the question. You would be in the no camp.

Hivemind187

Wicknight wrote: »

bring out the anal probe ...

anyway, there seems to be an interesting assumption that belief should automatically lead to worship. As steve says that isn't actually true, as this thread some what demonstrates.

I would wonder if the theists can actually understand that position, or will it be dismissed with a Bible quote.

I think the problem is that for theists the two go hand in hand ... ommitting the anal probe.

It seems that belief is the reason why they should worship and that they should worship is not even a question. It doesnt appear to be backwards compatable either e.g. not worshipping but still believing - as if not worshipping somehow implies not believing.

... sorry I think my brain has melted from this one.

Dades

I think there is merit in the thread.

On the surface it seems that non-believers are stuck in their views, and will never recognise a god no matter what evidence is put in front of them.

But to paraphrase what stevejazzx so *ahem* excitedly put, there's more to disbelief than a simple lack of miracles. The whole notion of an overlord God demanding worship, is just so flawed as that it could only be a human projection.

Consequently even if it appeared some deity was manipulating things on earth there are many hard issues to be addressed about the way that god operates before people would consider kneeling before him.

JimiTime

Hivemind187 wrote: »

I think the problem is that for theists the two go hand in hand ... ommitting the anal probe.

It seems that belief is the reason why they should worship and that they should worship is not even a question. It doesnt appear to be backwards compatable either e.g. not worshipping but still believing - as if not worshipping somehow implies not believing.

... sorry I think my brain has melted from this one.

In all fairness guys, i think you're assuming too much. Why don't you pose it as a question in the Christianity forum and see if you can confirm your suspicion?

Asiaprod

Dades wrote: »

Consequently even if it appeared some deity was manipulating things on earth there are many hard issues to be addressed about the way that god operates before people would consider kneeling before him.

That would be a major issue for me too

Hivemind187

JimiTime wrote: »

In all fairness guys, i think you're assuming too much. Why don't you pose it as a question in the Christianity forum and see if you can confirm your suspicion?

I'm not assuming anything. Its an observation. Feel free to disagree.

As for the Christianty forum, I limit my posting in thee because I often seem to cause more harm than good.

JimiTime

Hivemind187 wrote: »

I'm not assuming anything. Its an observation. Feel free to disagree.

Well maybe your observation is correct, but it doesn't represent me. i just thought it would be good to see if others on the christianity forum would concur.

As for the Christianty forum, I limit my posting in thee because I often seem to cause more harm than good.

If you just want to ask a question without going down the lines of attack, you shouldn't have a problem. You can be fiery:)

Scofflaw

Dades wrote:

On the surface it seems that non-believers are stuck in their views, and will never recognise a god no matter what evidence is put in front of them.

But to paraphrase what stevejazzx so *ahem* excitedly put, there's more to disbelief than a simple lack of miracles. The whole notion of an overlord God demanding worship, is just so flawed as that it could only be a human projection.

Consequently even if it appeared some deity was manipulating things on earth there are many hard issues to be addressed about the way that god operates before people would consider kneeling before him.

That's fundamentally why JimiTime is asking - essentially, he's asking the question "why are you an atheist?" without getting the usual response of "there's no evidence for God". It's a very good question - as one can see, most of us have plenty of issues with the Christian God above and beyond the lack of evidence. I would tend to argue that for most of us these issues are the important ones, and came first - essentials preceding non-existence, if you'll pardon the phrase.

cordially,
Scofflaw

DerKaiser

Firstly, you can't, don't be silly,
Secondly, I will never believe in ancient superstitions,
Thirdly, If I could show you there was no god, would you become Athiest?

Zombrex

That is a good point Scofflaw

I probably decided I wasn't worshiping the Christian God before I decided he didn't exist (can't remember exactly when I decided either).

Now some theists may argue that I decided he didn't exist to make me feel better about deciding not to worship him. I suppose I can only assure them that this isn't the case. I can think of a ton of reasons why god doesn't exist, and i can think of a ton of separate reasons why I wouldn't worship him if he did.

I suppose the fact that he doesn't exist means I won't suffer the consequences of my lack of worship, which is a bonus I guess, but as The Atheist said the very fact that these consequences are supposed to exist is in itself a reason to reject the idea that God even exists, since it makes little sense beyond the need for a religion to structure its doctrine that way to hold members.

JimiTime

DerKaiser wrote: »

Firstly, you can't, don't be silly,
Secondly, I will never believe in ancient superstitions,
Thirdly, If I could show you there was no god, would you become Athiest?

Firstly: i know i can't.
secondly: that is the crux of the question. if this view could be shown incorrect, I>E> you witnessed what you believed was superstition, would you believe and in turn follow?
Thirdly: Yes.

DerKaiser

It's a good question, don't get me wrong Jimi, and I appreciate your objective answers, but I'm a deep down cynic, if you showed me a miracle I would still look for a scientific answer to explain it,

JimiTime

DerKaiser wrote: »

It's a good question, don't get me wrong Jimi, and I appreciate your objective answers, but I'm a deep down cynic, if you showed me a miracle I would still look for a scientific answer to explain it,

Fair enough.

Hivemind187

JimiTime wrote: »

Well maybe your observation is correct, but it doesn't represent me. i just thought it would be good to see if others on the christianity forum would concur.

In that case I will endevour to represent all people everywhere with every comment I ever make again, ever.

Or not.

JimiTime wrote: »

If you just want to ask a question without going down the lines of attack, you shouldn't have a problem. You can be fiery:)

I'll hold my hands up to this one. I can be a little brusque, however I tend to cause the most trouble when I ask genuine intellectual questions like "where the hell was god before the opening chapters of the bible". Then people start calling me a fascist or alternatively a whinging liberal ... the irony of which is not lost on me.

JimiTime

Hivemind187 wrote: »

In that case I will endevour to represent all people everywhere with every comment I ever make again, ever.

Or not.

i' not sure what you mean by this? Do you think I was having a pop at you? i assure you i wasn't.

djpbarry

Dades wrote: »

Consequently even if it appeared some deity was manipulating things on earth there are many hard issues to be addressed about the way that god operates before people would consider kneeling before him.

Very good point. Religious doctrine would appear to dictate that belief necessitates worship.

DerKaiser wrote: »

but I'm a deep down cynic, if you showed me a miracle I would still look for a scientific answer to explain it,

As would I. Perhaps God is also a scientist? Or a programmer, and we are variables within said program that have become self-aware! It’s all gotten terribly out of hand…