10 years later

Ph3n0m

http://www.wwe.com/inside/news/harttenyearslaterpt1

Bret Hart talking to wwe.com - whatever next

krudler

yawwwwwwwn Bret goes on yet again about none of it was his fault, bad decision by vince, yadda yadda, y'know the more the years have passed the more i agree with Vinces decision, he protected his own company when Hart could have easily shown up on Nitro the next night with the belt, he said he wouldnt but hey things happen, and I've never agreed to this whole "I shouldnt job in Canada as I'm a hero there" no Bret you're a character in a fixed sport, a great character but not a real sports hero by any means, and thats like any other WWE saying he shouldnt job in America because its his home country, absolute nonsense

nacho libre

Perhaps it makes sense from economic point of view to keep it alive for this long. In any other context it's hard to defend whining about it for so long.

ShawnRaven

Here's the thing that bugs me about Bret. He said in Wrestling With Shadows, the scene where he and his dad are sitting by the ring discussing said match, and this is a direct quote "I have reasonable creative control."

I've highlighted reasonable for a reason.

Not wanting to job the belt in Canada.
Completely unreasonable, Canada is a big place, the show wasn't even in his hometown! It was in Montreal, Quebec! Had it been in Calgary or Edmonton, Alberta, i could understand him not wanting to be buried there but come on!

Not wanting to job the belt to Shawn.
Again, completely unreasonable. You're leaving the damn company, what do you care who you job it to? I don't give a rats ass what his and Shawn's history spills, and they were both fairly guilty of winding each other up if you listen to both their shoots. Shawn was the top heel WWE had at that period, who else was he gonna work a program with? Another Bret v Undertaker match? (bearing in mind they'd only had one at a UK PPV 3 weeks earlier), Austin wasn't quite ready at the time and he was still in the IC program with Owen.

For what Vince did for Bret over the course of 20 years (bearing in mind he took Bret on after buying out Stampede, he didn't HAVE to), and pushed him to the moon. Vince saw his talent and potential (and he did have it!) and used it to his full potential and made them both a sh*tload of money for it over the course of that time. Keeping all that into consideration, Vince really didn't ask for much. He was in a huge war with the competition (that Bret jumped to, granted Vince helped him in there by bumping up the offer so WCW would bump theirs) and wasn't gonna risk giving them more ammunition when WWE were already getting their ass handed to them.

Vince was backed into a corner, and he fought his way out with that decision. Get over it Bret, it was 10 years ago, pissing and moaning about it isn't gonna get your career, your family or your brother back. Move on already, because it's clear that you haven't.

VR!

rossie1977

vince treats his employees like sh*t time and time again (the list is endless) yet people defend him

i am not brets biggest fan, but he gave everything for the WWE during his time there; but the way vince acted was cowardly and cannot be defended under any circumstances. He promised bret that he would not lose yet went back on that promise. Sure bret was pigheaded for not wanting to job, but vince could easily have got around that by stripping him of the title earlier and claiming he was injured or something like that.

bret will always hold a grudge against vince until the day he dies, that is clear from talking to his son dallas and daughter jade; and wrestling fans will still be debating the montreal screwjob 50 years from now

krudler

validreasoning! wrote: »

Here's the thing that bugs me about Bret. He said in Wrestling With Shadows, the scene where he and his dad are sitting by the ring discussing said match, and this is a direct quote "I have reasonable creative control."

I've highlighted reasonable for a reason.

Not wanting to job the belt in Canada.
Completely unreasonable, Canada is a big place, the show wasn't even in his hometown! It was in Montreal, Quebec! Had it been in Calgary or Edmonton, Alberta, i could understand him not wanting to be buried there but come on!

Not wanting to job the belt to Shawn.
Again, completely unreasonable. You're leaving the damn company, what do you care who you job it to? I don't give a rats ass what his and Shawn's history spills, and they were both fairly guilty of winding each other up if you listen to both their shoots. Shawn was the top heel WWE had at that period, who else was he gonna work a program with? Another Bret v Undertaker match? (bearing in mind they'd only had one at a UK PPV 3 weeks earlier), Austin wasn't quite ready at the time and he was still in the IC program with Owen.

For what Vince did for Bret over the course of 20 years (bearing in mind he took Bret on after buying out Stampede, he didn't HAVE to), and pushed him to the moon. Vince saw his talent and potential (and he did have it!) and used it to his full potential and made them both a sh*tload of money for it over the course of that time. Keeping all that into consideration, Vince really didn't ask for much. He was in a huge war with the competition (that Bret jumped to, granted Vince helped him in there by bumping up the offer so WCW would bump theirs) and wasn't gonna risk giving them more ammunition when WWE were already getting their ass handed to them.

Vince was backed into a corner, and he fought his way out with that decision. Get over it Bret, it was 10 years ago, pissing and moaning about it isn't gonna get your career, your family or your brother back. Move on already, because it's clear that you haven't.

VR!

Totally agree with that, its ridiculous that a champion didnt want to lose a belt when he was leaving the company, like you said what does he care who the champ is he wont be there anymore, look at Edge, walked into Unforgiven 2006 the hometown hero, gave a champion performance, lost,put Cena over and still remained at the top of the card or thereabouts, it must have got to him a bit that he had to lose to his home crowd and you could see the emotion on his face at the beginning of thematch (when he slapped himself it was proabably a reminder to himself of "you're the heel!") but thats wrestling, you cant give performers the right to pick and choose who they do and dont lose to (within reason i.e Austin and Brock being put on tv not on ppv as it should have been so Austin walked) or it demeans the bookers job

ShawnRaven

rossie1977 wrote: »

vince treats his employees like sh*t time and time again (the list is endless) yet people defend him

i am not brets biggest fan, but he gave everything for the WWE during his time there; but the way vince acted was cowardly and cannot be defended under any circumstances. He promised bret that he would not lose yet went back on that promise. Sure bret was pigheaded for not wanting to job, but vince could easily have got around that by stripping him of the title earlier and claiming he was injured or something like that.

bret will always hold a grudge against vince until the day he dies, that is clear from talking to his son dallas and daughter jade; and wrestling fans will still be debating the montreal screwjob 50 years from now

Serious name dropping there, too bad nobody cares.
Vince could have stripped Bret of the title, but why the hell should he? Your boss gives you an instruction, you take it, you don't question it. You sure as hell don't defy or question it unless you know it's gonna be a bad move for the company. And there was absolutely nothing stopping Bret from running to WCW with the belt. Yeah we know he says he'd never do it, but talk is cheap in wrestling as you probably well know. To me, the only thing Vince was guilty of was signing him to the big contract in 96 when he came back for Survivor Series that year. Bret was not a big enough name after his hiatus to keep wrestling fans interested (and TV ratings showed this as WCW was preferred over WWE at that stage). Vince found this out the hard way a year later and he pulled the trigger on Bret.

Also Vince had good reason to be wary too, January 1992 WCW went into talks with Bret while he was the IC title holder, hence why he dropped it to Jacques Rougeau a few days before Royal Rumble. It's not a case of Vince having it in for Bret, he'd have done that with anyone in the same situation. Bret just has it in his head that most people hate him in the business. If they didn't then, they sure as hell do now.

But i'm not telling you anything you don't already know.
VR!

rossie1977

the debate is not whether bret defied the orders of vince because he was never ordered to lose his title, vince told bret on the thursday he would not lose the title!!!

vince broke a promise to hart (not the first time he did that either btw, he promised him a 20 year contract and failed to pay up). Vince changed wrestling history forever in that one moment, he flushed harts wwf career down the toilet with one wave of his hand and all because he didn't want eric bischoff to show him up AGAIN.

you are speculating that hart would have brought the title to WCW, there is no proof he would have done this and even if he had, flair did it in 1991 and I don't see everyone making a big deal of that

ShawnRaven

rossie1977 wrote: »

the debate is not whether bret defied the orders of vince because he was never ordered to lose his title, vince told bret on the thursday he would not lose the title!!!

Of course he did, after several weeks of him asking him to do so! Cos egomaniac Hart couldn't take the blow.

vince broke a promise to hart (not the first time he did that either btw, he promised him a 20 year contract and failed to pay up). Vince changed wrestling history forever in that one moment, he flushed harts wwf career down the toilet with one wave of his hand and all because he didn't want eric bischoff to show him up AGAIN.

The contract thing was a mistake. Flair was bang on the money when he said Bret didn't draw a dime on his signing in 96. Bret was tanking, fans weren't interested in his television appearances (unless they were Canadian!). Vince admitted he was wrong, it wasn't a case of failing to pay up. Bret wasn't worth the money Vince was paying for at the time, and helped Bret re-negotiate his contract with WCW so he could get more than what Vince was paying him. Again, something Vince didn't have to do, bearing in mind he is the boss. As for Brets career being flushed down the toilet. I'd say a combination of Bischoff not using him, Goldberg's accidental kick to the head and Bret's age catching up with him (he was nearly 46 i think when he had that stroke) flushed his career down the toilet.

you are speculating that hart would have brought the title to WCW, there is no proof he would have done this and even if he had, flair did it in 1991 and I don't see everyone making a big deal of that

Was a different story there. Flair owned the belt! Bill Watts didn't pay Flair back the $25,000 deposit, so Flair took the belt with him. He sent the belt back the second his money went into the account (explaining the blurred belt storyline as he was using an upside down tag belt as a substitute). And that was a huge f*cking deal when he did bring that belt over to WWE at the time. A lot of people marked out for that.

VR!

shinzon

dont ususally say anything more about the montrel screwjob cause its been argued and counter argued for years and will be for years to come

Some observations though

1) WWE is continually bringing it up or more accurately vince is, this time its because bret has his book out and they want to cash in on it, what better way then getting bret on wwe.com and talking about it again.

2) I could never see bret no matter how much bischoff pestered or paid him bringing the belt to wcw, its clear bret has a self aggrandised version of himself heroes to kids and a stand up guy to adults, it would destroy that carefully cultivated image wwe created for him and that he has in his mind of himself, so no he would not have taken the belt to nitro if they had of stuck to the original plan and dropped the belt on raw the next night

its a shame really that a 20 year relationship came to a thundering halt over trust, vince just didnt trust hart to follow through on his promise, youd think 2people over that period of time would get to know each other and be able to know that each would do the right thing

Shin

ShawnRaven

shinzon wrote: »

its a shame really that a 20 year relationship came to a thundering halt over trust, vince just didnt trust hart to follow through on his promise, youd think 2people over that period of time would get to know each other and be able to know that each would do the right thing

This is the correct conclusion overall though
Both men were extremely paranoid at the time though. Vince was paranoid cos he had a rake of big stars jump ship to WCW over the course of the years, as well as the Alundra Blayze incident

Bret on the other hand was paranoid because over the course of a year, Bret was the biggest babyface and was slowly being shuffled to the midcard as Shawn was being pushed.

But it happened 10 years ago, Bret needs to move on. What's he gonna do? Be bitter about the whole thing until he's dead?
Good to see ya back Shin, you've been missing for some time.

VR!

shinzon

Ive been lurking

But it happened 10 years ago, Bret needs to move on. What's he gonna do? Be bitter about the whole thing until he's dead?

and agreed VR they both do


Shin

fatal

Although bret always talks about not wanting to lose the title in Canada I have always thought that could have been a more sinister reason involved.
He had already signed with WCW. Eric Bischoff in the past signed WWE talent who held a title belt and on live tv,dumped it into a trash can.Who is to say that it wasnt Eric Bischoff that told Bret to make sure that he was still champ and then bring the belt over to Nitro the very next night and do something with it?Although it had been done with the womens title,it would have been a totally different story if he did it to the championship belt.

Just something for you guys to maybe think about before taking Brets excuse as the real excuse and looking past what Bischoff could have potentially asked him to do.

EdK

The whole thing is the biggest work in the history of Pro Wrestling!!!

Mr.Nice Guy

What's with all this bollocks about Bret being the one hung up on the incident? The WWE have been living off the thing more than he has. Pretty much every time they've been in Montreal in fact.

validreasoning! wrote: »

Here's the thing that bugs me about Bret. He said in Wrestling With Shadows, the scene where he and his dad are sitting by the ring discussing said match, and this is a direct quote "I have reasonable creative control."

I've highlighted reasonable for a reason.

Not wanting to job the belt in Canada.
Completely unreasonable, Canada is a big place, the show wasn't even in his hometown! It was in Montreal, Quebec! Had it been in Calgary or Edmonton, Alberta, i could understand him not wanting to be buried there but come on!

Not unreasonable at all. Canada was the place Shawn Michaels had been disrespecting, humping the flag and so forth. The place where Bret was a national icon. Why should he lose when the whole event was selling off of the fact that the Canadian hero was going to teach the American jerk a lesson?

validreasoning! wrote:

Not wanting to job the belt to Shawn.
Again, completely unreasonable. You're leaving the damn company, what do you care who you job it to? I don't give a rats ass what his and Shawn's history spills, and they were both fairly guilty of winding each other up if you listen to both their shoots. Shawn was the top heel WWE had at that period, who else was he gonna work a program with? Another Bret v Undertaker match? (bearing in mind they'd only had one at a UK PPV 3 weeks earlier), Austin wasn't quite ready at the time and he was still in the IC program with Owen.

Their history is very significant. Would you want to drop the belt to a guy who you had dropped it to already, on the biggest show of the calendar year, who had refused to return the favour? A guy who had been a dick to you and others in the locker room? I think not (assuming you actually have integrity).

validreasoning! wrote:

For what Vince did for Bret over the course of 20 years (bearing in mind he took Bret on after buying out Stampede, he didn't HAVE to), and pushed him to the moon. Vince saw his talent and potential (and he did have it!) and used it to his full potential and made them both a sh*tload of money for it over the course of that time. Keeping all that into consideration, Vince really didn't ask for much. He was in a huge war with the competition (that Bret jumped to, granted Vince helped him in there by bumping up the offer so WCW would bump theirs) and wasn't gonna risk giving them more ammunition when WWE were already getting their ass handed to them.

Vince made a sh*tload more off of Bret (which is fair enough as he's the owner) but Bret was a diligent worker and didn't deserve the treatment he got no matter how you try and dress it up. Even Vince has expressed regret and respected figures like Foley called it for what it was - out of order.

validreasoning! wrote:

Vince was backed into a corner, and he fought his way out with that decision. Get over it Bret, it was 10 years ago, pissing and moaning about it isn't gonna get your career, your family or your brother back. Move on already, because it's clear that you haven't.
VR!

This is the kind of bullsh*t I'm talking about. WWE have been literally bleeding the Montreal incident dry for years and years. Bret HAS got over it. He has moved to Italy and has a family and has tried to live a happy life and just because the WWE contact him over the incident you and others tell Bret to get over it? Mind-boggling.

Muff_Daddy

The one thing that can be taken from Montreal is that it created the 'Mr Mchahon character'. It was principaly his rivalry with Austin, along with DX and a few other things, that drew the audience away from WCW, an towards WWF, and we got years of fantasic T.V as a result.

And as said before, Bret needs to put his ego to one side and realise that Vince made a company SAVING decision. If it wasn't for that night ten years ago, I'm certain we'd all watching Nitro right now. (Whether or not you think that would be a good thing is another debate )

rossie1977

Muff_Daddy wrote: »

And as said before, Bret needs to put his ego to one side and realise that Vince made a company SAVING decision. If it wasn't for that night ten years ago, I'm certain we'd all watching Nitro right now. (Whether or not you think that would be a good thing is another debate )

fatal wrote:

He had already signed with WCW. Eric Bischoff in the past signed WWE talent who held a title belt and on live tv,dumped it into a trash can.Who is to say that it wasnt Eric Bischoff that told Bret to make sure that he was still champ and then bring the belt over to Nitro the very next night and do something with it?Although it had been done with the womens title,it would have been a totally different story if he did it to the championship belt

heresay and assumptions! Anyone want to pick the football results next week for me

Miceli aka Alundra Blayze from what i have heard came up with the idea of throwing the WWE title in the trash HERSELF because she had been sacked by vince and was extremely pi*sed off at him.

Fozzy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

He has moved to Italy

He mentioned in a recent interview I read that he got divorced and that he's back in Canada now

I don't think not wanting to lose the belt in Canada was that unreasonable. Even if it is a big place, the WWF only ran a small percentage of their shows there. Someone mentioned how Edge had no problem losing the belt to Cena in Canada, but it's a very different situation. Edge was presented as a heel everywhere. Bret was a heel to the Americans, but he was literally a national hero to Canadians. The Canada vs America thing played into the angle at the time as well. I don't believe that Shawn was reasonable either

Muff_Daddy

rossie1977 wrote: »

heresay and assumptions! Anyone want to pick the football results next week for me

Miceli aka Alundra Blayze from what i have heard came up with the idea of throwing the WWE title in the trash HERSELF because she had been sacked by vince and was extremely pi*sed off at him.

Maybe he wouldn't have taken the title to WCW, but it was the controversy that resulted from the screwjob that resulted in the birth of the Mr Mcmahon character, which ultimately played a major part in saving it from going under at the hands of WCW. You just can't buy controversy like that!

It's a shame that Bret was completely steamrolled as a result, but the reason why it happened was essentially because Bret did not agree to do what his boss told him to do in the first place.

ShawnRaven

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

What's with all this bollocks about Bret being the one hung up on the incident? The WWE have been living off the thing more than he has. Pretty much every time they've been in Montreal in fact.

True, but in fairness, everytime WWE came to Montreal, regardless if Vince, HBK or Earl Hebner was around, they chanted "You Screwed Bret". Takes two to tango.

Not unreasonable at all. Canada was the place Shawn Michaels had been disrespecting, humping the flag and so forth. The place where Bret was a national icon. Why should he lose when the whole event was selling off of the fact that the Canadian hero was going to teach the American jerk a lesson?

None of that matters! Especially when Canada was the only place he was a heel, and Bret disrespected America a lot more than Shawn disrespected Canada if you're gonna go that route. Why should he lose? Wrong question, the answer was why should he go over? On a similar note (altho you'll call this a red herring probably but it's more of an observation), i was quite surprised that Trish went over in her last match with the company.

Their history is very significant. Would you want to drop the belt to a guy who you had dropped it to already, on the biggest show of the calendar year, who had refused to return the favour? A guy who had been a dick to you and others in the locker room? I think not (assuming you actually have integrity).

It's not a case of wanting to drop it to Shawn. Neither of them would have wanted to given that situation. It's as simple as your boss asking you to do one last request after 20 years of service. Shawn isn't even legit part of the equation. This beef is between Bret and Vince really. Vince asked Bret to drop the title, Bret refused, Vince forced him to drop it. Who's to blame there?

Vince made a sh*tload more off of Bret (which is fair enough as he's the owner) but Bret was a diligent worker and didn't deserve the treatment he got no matter how you try and dress it up. Even Vince has expressed regret and respected figures like Foley called it for what it was - out of order.

Vince has regretted it, and does wish he had handled it differently. But we don't know what he means by that. For all we know, he could have meant saying to Bret "You're dropping the belt and that's that!", and even i will admit that would have been the better way to go. I'm not trying to dress it up, I won't fault Hart's work ethic. But i'll still stand by for all Vince did for Bret (cos yeah, Bret made nothing at all out of that career, right?), he could have done his last request. But his ego and his fixation about being a hero got in the way.

This is the kind of bullsh*t I'm talking about. WWE have been literally bleeding the Montreal incident dry for years and years. Bret HAS got over it. He has moved to Italy and has a family and has tried to live a happy life and just because the WWE contact him over the incident you and others tell Bret to get over it? Mind-boggling.

If Bret had gotten over it, and moved on as you say. He would have refused and not shown up on wwe.com.

VR!

ShawnRaven

rossie1977 wrote: »

Miceli aka Alundra Blayze from what i have heard came up with the idea of throwing the WWE title in the trash HERSELF because she had been sacked by vince and was extremely pi*sed off at him.

There's yer assumptions right there. Bischoff has publically admitted that was his bright idea.

VR!

ShawnRaven

Muff_Daddy wrote: »

It's a shame that Bret was completely steamrolled as a result, but the reason why it happened was essentially because Bret did not agree to do what his boss told him to do in the first place.

Quoted for truth, hence the term, Bret Screwed Bret.
There it is, in black and white.

VR!

flahavaj

Am I the only one who's just sick and tired of the whole Montreal screwjob saga? I don't even care anymore who screwed who: as far as I can see no one really came out of the whole sorry mess without their reputation tarnished in some way or another.:mad:

tdv

FFS, they should get Bret & Vince put them in cage with no refs no rules & just let them go at until neither of them can rember what there fighting about & get it over with. I think thats the only way we'll ever get some closure.

Bubs101

Gotta agree with VR here. If your boss tells you to do something, you do it. If you don't do it he has every right to try and force your hand. Also, regarding Rosie's nonsense about hear say and assumptions. It's irrelevant if it was, Vince was guaranteeing that he couldn't bring the title with him the only way he could. I'd be more than a little suspicious if my champion refused to drop a belt while he was negotiating with a rival

Vince135792003

Bubs101 wrote: »

Gotta agree with VR here. If your boss tells you to do something, you do it. If you don't do it he has every right to try and force your hand.

The boss told him that it would be a run in. Bosses generally stick to what's in contracts too. Vince didn't.

I really don't want to get into this. It's been talked to death about but there's a lack of balance in the thread.

HBK

Vince135792003 wrote: »

The boss told him that it would be a run in. Bosses generally stick to what's in contracts too. Vince didn't.

I really don't want to get into this. It's been talked to death about but there's a lack of balance in the thread.

I agree with Vince here,distinct lack of balance in this thread. I dont see how anyone can justify what Mcmahon did. "you do what your boss tells you" ..........ya fair enough but when your boss tells you its gonna end in a 'smoz' then thats what you go for........

"theres a time honoured tradition in this business'........wat a lame get out of jail card......brets family grew up in the business,they know all about traditions,i dont believe for a second he would of took the belt over with him...its just a shame really,still makes for good watching tho

I have to jump in here . Bret did what the boss told him . The went in Vince asked Bret what do you want to do ? We all heard it. Vince told him there was going to be a run in. At the end of the day , Bret did get screwed due to a number of reasons . Vince and Bret got over it and sorted out their differences as they both had to make business decisions that clashed with each other. The other person was HBK who was the little weasle that had a hand in it and swore on his mothers grave he had nothing to do with it. Scared little **** . Then he waits untill 7 years later acting the big man saying it was him.

ShawnRaven

HBK wrote: »

I agree with Vince here,distinct lack of balance in this thread. I dont see how anyone can justify what Mcmahon did. "you do what your boss tells you" ..........ya fair enough but when your boss tells you its gonna end in a 'smoz' then thats what you go for......

Yeah, thats called being backed into a corner. Vince asked him in the first place to drop it and Bret out and out refused. That's how i can justify McMahon's actions. Bret whinged and whined about not wanting to drop it in Canada to Shawn, so Bret gave him the smoz story to shut him up and keep him happy.

His own fault, and i don't feel sorry for him one bit.
VR!

Fozzy

validreasoning! wrote: »

Vince asked him in the first place to drop it and Bret out and out refused.

Bret did not out and out refuse. He said that he'd drop the title anywhere in America before Survivor Series or he'd give up the belt on Raw. It was good enough for Shawn to drop the belt without losing to Bret, so it would have been good enough for Bret to drop it without losing to Shawn

krudler

Fozzy wrote: »

Bret did not out and out refuse. He said that he'd drop the title anywhere in America before Survivor Series or he'd give up the belt on Raw. It was good enough for Shawn to drop the belt without losing to Bret, so it would have been good enough for Bret to drop it without losing to Shawn

shouldnt have been his decision to make though, Vince was his boss at the end of the day,creative control shouldnt decide when you dont feel like dropping a belt and you have the say in the hows and whys of it

Vince135792003

krudler wrote: »

shouldnt have been his decision to make though, Vince was his boss at the end of the day,creative control shouldnt decide when you dont feel like dropping a belt and you have the say in the hows and whys of it

Well if you have a clause in an agreed contract that you have made with your boss that says you have reasonable creative control for the last 30 days of your contract, that means it was 50% his decision to make.

ShawnRaven

The other 50% is Vince's, plus he's the owner of the company and all decisions have to be run past him anyway.

VR!

Fozzy

krudler wrote: »

shouldnt have been his decision to make though, Vince was his boss at the end of the day,creative control shouldnt decide when you dont feel like dropping a belt and you have the say in the hows and whys of it

Then why not give out about Shawn as well then? When Bret and Shawn were initially told about their last run together, Shawn refused to job to anyone anywhere. Was that acceptable? It's why Bret didn't want to lose in Canada to Shawn. I don't blame him one bit

krudler

krudler wrote: »

shouldnt have been his decision to make though, Vince was his boss at the end of the day,creative control shouldnt decide when you dont feel like dropping a belt and you have the say in the hows and whys of it

Yes you have to remember this clause was put into Brets contract if he was to leave the WWE. Basically a way to protect himself from being burried . At that time there was life outside of WWE. Bret didnt out and out refuse, himself and Bret came to a decision .

Brethitmanhart

Bret was 100% right, I don't understand how people could take the side of someone who is clearly devious.
I feel that when WCW wanted Bret in 96 Vince took action.
Bret was loyal at that point and signed a 20 year deal....Vince then over the year tried to ruin Bret, making him heel but not the worst heel which kinda left him in between, then he asked Bret to accept WCW's offer. And them ****ed him over.
Shawn wouldn't job so why should Bret job to Shawn?
Shawn lied to Brets face, such a pussy. And then he's a born again christian going on about his god crap, a good person is a good person and Shawn is a scumbag and a liar.

krudler

Brethitmanhart wrote: »

Bret was 100% right, I don't understand how people could take the side of someone who is clearly devious.
I feel that when WCW wanted Bret in 96 Vince took action.
Bret was loyal at that point and signed a 20 year deal....Vince then over the year tried to ruin Bret, making him heel but not the worst heel which kinda left him in between, then he asked Bret to accept WCW's offer. And them ****ed him over.
Shawn wouldn't job so why should Bret job to Shawn?
Shawn lied to Brets face, such a pussy. And then he's a born again christian going on about his god crap, a good person is a good person and Shawn is a scumbag and a liar.

can see by your username you're completely unbiased about this issue:rolleyes:

1.Shawn shouldnt have jobbed to Bret as Bret was LEAVING, shawn was being groomed to be the top guy in the company at this point after Hart left

2. he wasnt a born again christian at this stage,didnt become one until years later and he's said it plenty of times himself he was an asshole back then

ShawnRaven

Waaah waaaah waaaah, call 911 for the waaambluwaaance!
F*ckin' Bret marks.

VR!

Fozzy

krudler wrote: »

1.Shawn shouldnt have jobbed to Bret as Bret was LEAVING, shawn was being groomed to be the top guy in the company at this point after Hart left

So what about when Shawn refused to job to anyone before Bret had even talked to WCW?

ShawnRaven

But we're talking about Bret here, not Shawn! (last i checked)
VR!

Fozzy

My point is that what Shawn did is worse than what Bret did in that regard, yet there's people here who are solely mad at Bret for not wanting to job and saying that Shawn was in the right

ShawnRaven

To me, most fans were pretty consistant as they were the same fans who bitched about Shawn forfeiting the title two weeks before Wrestlemania 13. He got booed out of the building as he was leaving on that RAW, and rightfully so.

The difference is Shawn has since admitted he was wrong. Bret however, is still adament that he's right.

VR!

Fozzy

validreasoning! wrote: »

The difference is Shawn has since admitted he was wrong. Bret however, is still adament that he's right.

Bret wouldn't job to Shawn because Shawn had already refused to job to him. It wasn't just Bret's ego, it was Bret treating a spoilt brat the way he deserved to be treated. Shawn has admitted that he was wrong because he was wrong. Bret wasn't

To put it another way, say you're playing football and there's a guy on the team who refuses to pass the ball to anyone. Why should you pass the ball to him? Does it make you wrong not to pass the ball to him simply because you're acting in a similar way to him? And keep in mind that Bret's career and the wrestling business was a lot more important to him than a metaphorical game of football

ShawnRaven

Fozzy wrote: »

Bret wouldn't job to Shawn because Shawn had already refused to job to him. It wasn't just Bret's ego, it was Bret treating a spoilt brat the way he deserved to be treated. Shawn has admitted that he was wrong because he was wrong. Bret wasn't

No, Bret was perfectly right in not doing what was right for the business at the time, a business that without, he would be a nothing. Bret was the top babyface going into his last program, Shawn was the top heel going into it. But Bret, despite the fact that he was bailing from the company and would never have to be in the same ring as Shawn again (and no way was Vince gonna let Shawn go to WCW after Bret!), and he still wouldn't drop. Real stand up guy there.

Bret was definitely in the wrong, for different reasons maybe than Shawn was. But i guess two wrongs make a right in Bret's eyes (as well as his fans).

VR!

Terry

I'm just hoping Michaels wins the belt on Sunday using the Sharpshooter.

Brethitmanhart

Bret wasn't top babyface VR, from reading your posts I feel you really need to do a lot of study on the montreal screwjob before you post like this...not being mean but it's so clear that you have very limited knowledge on the matter.

Krudler:
Shawn wouldn't job to anyone and it wasn't because Bret was leaving...
2. I know Shawn is only recently a born again christian I was talking about the character of the man we are talking about. And it makes no difference if you admit you were an asshole, you still were an asshole and that's that.

HOW WAS BRET WRONG? Seriously? HOW!, You people clearly have no knowledge of the situation, and are caught up in the Vince McMahon Bret screwed Bret crap.
Theres no way Vince would have tried to mend things with Bret by APOLOGISING in 2002 if Bret was the one in the WRONG!

Bret in 96 could have left WWF for WCW but instead was loyal and stayed (signed a 20 year deal), then over the next year Vince made life hard for Bret, he made him heel, and not only that but didn't make him the worst heel so Bret was kinda stuck in the middle, then a year on, Vince wants out of 20 year contract and asks Bret to move to WCW.
Bret agrees, even tho' he says he would like to stay in WWF.
Then on his last match in Canada, Bret has creative control and they work out a match ending, a fair number of people were secretly involved in a plan to screw over Bret....very sneaky stuff, They screw him, LIE to his face backstage, In Hebners case he caught a secret early flight as he has SWORN ON HIS KIDS he would make sure that everything will go ok for Bret. Yet somehow Bret is in the wrong.

Some people are seriously dumb.

Tell me how Bret was wrong, and don't say "cause he wouldn't job to Shawn....Shawn was a child who wouldn't job to anyone, Bret had creative control, Bret at all times did what was asked of him by WWF, he was one the main guys that brought WWF through the bad times(Court Case, Steroids).

It shows that some people seem to prefer the sneaky, lying, asshole, scumbag than the clearly honest, truthful, loyal, hardworking person.

EDIT: VR you're "last i thought we were talking bout Bret not shawn comment....what a childish comment which would only come from someone who is immature to the point that either (a) He can't see how an incident involving Bret and Shawn involved both people OR (b) Has little to no knowledge of incident and has no way of defending the person he likes through facts so resorts to little childish comments....or both.
Seriously grow up, He made a clearly valid point informing people who clearly didn't know of the situation.

ShawnRaven

Brethitmanhart wrote: »

Bret wasn't top babyface VR, from reading your posts I feel you really need to do a lot of study on the montreal screwjob before you post like this...not being mean but it's so clear that you have very limited knowledge on the matter.

And i feel you really need to open your eyes as i said he was the top babyface going into Montreal, which he was. He was babyface in Canada and heel in the US. Wipe your mouth, you're talking sh*te.

(b) Has little to no knowledge of incident and has no way of defending the person he likes through facts so resorts to little childish comments....or both.
Seriously grow up, He made a clearly valid point informing people who clearly didn't know of the situation.

Seriously, take a chill pill. You've already made an ass of yourself once with your responses. Take a deep breath and maybe think before you post?

Thank you, come again!
VR!

Terry

Dude, don't take it so seriously.
It's only entertainment.

Edit: VR got in there before me.

ShawnRaven

He's a Bret mark, you get used to their whining. Next thing you know he'll blame Vince for his stroke!

VR!

Terry

validreasoning! wrote: »

He's a Bret mark, you get used to their whining. Next thing you know he'll blame Vince for his stroke!

VR!

Technically it is Vince's fault.

Had Bret not been screwed, then he would have stayed with the WWE and not been in that car crash.

D-FENS

As a huge Bret Hart fan for 20 years, it really kills me to say this, but Bret should have just agreed to drop the belt.
No one has the right to refuse to job or drop a belt at a certain time, but my first question has always been, why give Bret the title at Summerslam, only 3 months before hand, if you'd no intention of using him long term?
As much as I love the fact Bret got that 5th title reign that brought up to match Hogan at the time, I’ve never understood why Vince made him Champion again at this time.
We know at this time that he had pretty much lost faith in Bret as a cornerstone of the business (Coupled with Bret desire to be the man main or nothing at all in WWE), and he's starting concentrating on developing Austin and DX etc., so why take the belt of 'taker at all? Could he not have held on to it and then lost it to HBK in say, Hell in a Cell?
Bret could have then just been fizzled out in that feud with the Patriot before he left for good, not a very fitting and memorable ending to his WWF career, but better for him than what he ended up getting.
This of course didn’t happen because although Vince felt he had no long term use for Bret, he still used him, literally, to gain more notoriety in DX's push and ultimately for his own transformation into Mr. Mahon.
Vince was backed into a corner at Survivor Series, fair enough, but he created the problem in the first place as far as i'm concerned.