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Pursuing unpaid/witheld rent

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  • 09-11-2007 1:13am
    #1
    eth0_
    Registered Users Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭


    A friend of mine witheld some rent from a tenancy that has since ended, because of various problems but mainly because the lease was not valid (no lease provided, not registered with PRTB) so they lost out on a lot of money through not being able to claim part of their rent as a business expense.

    They took the amount lost out on out of the total, and paid the balance of the money owing to the landlord.

    Threshold told my friend that the they should do the above, and the landlord can only pursue them through the PRTB and that the PRTB would be very unlikely to side with the landlord as they broke the law in not registering the tenancy, and not providing a lease. AFAIK the landlord isn't even resident in this country and most likely was not paying tax on the rental income.

    Is it true this is the only route open to the landlord if they were to take things further? Could the landlord take action through the courts?


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    #2
    Agent J
    Registered Users Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭Agent J


    He can try but all you have to do is hold up the 2004 act which created the PRTB.

    The whole point of the PRTB was to take the cases out of the court system.


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    #3
    latenia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭latenia


    Bizarrely enough, if the landlord lives abroad, your friend is actually liable for a portion of the tax due on the rent.


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    #4
    eth0_
    Registered Users Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭eth0_


    latenia wrote: »
    Bizarrely enough, if the landlord lives abroad, your friend is actually liable for a portion of the tax due on the rent.

    Yeah I heard that too, but Threshold said this is never enforced, and definitely wouldn't be in this case because there was a letting agent 'managing' the tenancy, and at no point during the tenancy was she provided with the landlords address (I believe that's illegal too!), and the rent was paid into an Irish bank account, so there was no way of knowing the owner of the flat was non-resident.


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    #5
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    There is a time limit on persuing cases through the PRTB. If the landlord simply waits until this time has elapsed, he can pursue the claim through the courts instead. It is an offence not to register the tenancy with the PRTB- however that is an entirely seperate matter, and it is up to the PRTB to enforce it.
    Vis- witholding rent- legally you are not entitled to withold rent. If you have a dispute it should enter arbitration- but rent should not be witheld.

    Personally I think the PRTB are shirking its duties by not actively pursuing the landlord in question- and I would seriously question their ascertain that the tenant had a right to simply withold rent.

    There are prescribed penalties for not registering the tenancy- these should have been followed by the PRTB, they should not be advocating cowboy activities simply because the property is not registered with them- they should be following what the act says to the letter.

    S.


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    #6
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,400 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    eth0_ wrote: »
    A friend of mine witheld some rent from a tenancy that has since ended, because of various problems but mainly because the lease was not valid (no lease provided, not registered with PRTB) so they lost out on a lot of money through not being able to claim part of their rent as a business expense.
    Is it a residential or business tenancy? I think there may be problems if it falls betwixt and between.


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    #7
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,789 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Why would they not be able to claim it as a business expense?


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    #8
    Ste.phen
    Registered Users Posts: 2,808 ✭✭✭Ste.phen


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    Why would they not be able to claim it as a business expense?
    No proof of the tenancy (lease) which would satisfy the beancounters?


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    #9
    eth0_
    Registered Users Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭eth0_


    Exactly - you have to provide receipts or some other form of proof that money was paid for the product or service you are claiming for.


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    #10
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,789 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Was it all paid in cash? The receipt is the main thing.

    You have to have records for sure. Receipts are not an absolute requirement. If the rent is reasonably modest, and you don't have another premises, it might not be absolutely necessary to vouch it, although they will want to know who you paid the rent to.

    It is unusual enough for residential rent to be claimed as a business expense. I would imagine it is a small enough amount.

    I don't really think this would be something you could claim compensation over. You could require the landlord to give you the receipts.


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    #11
    eth0_
    Registered Users Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭eth0_


    Antoin, with respect, an accountant, Threshold and the PRTB are likely to be better informed than you on this matter.

    Receipts are no use at this stage as the expense can't be claimed retrospectively as my friend is no longer contracting.


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    #12
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,789 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Why can't the expense be claimed retrospectively? Is it a long time ago?

    Your friend obviously has to take into account his professional advice, but I think his advice was wrong. PRTB would not have given advice on this issue - I take it this has not gone to tribunal yet. If Threshold gave advice on this issue they were well outside their area of expertise.


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    #13
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Threshold and the PRTB normally only offer advice on private tenancies enacted between private individuals and landlords who lease accomodation to private people. Once leasing to/from a private company occurs, company law and the jurisdiction of courts governing company law may be more applicable to a particular case. I am not a solicitor, nor am I am expert in company law, but I would seriously advise your friend seek professional advice- as witholding funds in lieu of rent as he/she has done, could potentially result in a criminal rather than a civil obligation.

    S.


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    #14
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,789 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    The PRTB don't offer advice about any individual case as far as I know.


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    #15
    eth0_
    Registered Users Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭eth0_


    smccarrick wrote: »
    Threshold and the PRTB normally only offer advice on private tenancies enacted between private individuals and landlords who lease accomodation to private people.

    But that's exactly what it was! My friend was renting a flat. You can claim/write off (I was wrong in the original post) 1/6 of the rent against tax if you are a contractor.

    Threshold gave the bulk of the advice, the PRTB just said any complaints have to go through them and not the courts, and that they would be obliged to pursue the landlord once they saw the property wasn't registered with them. The PRTB didn't offer any advice.


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