Cycle Lanes

High&Low · 09-11-2007 1:50pm #1

I have recently started cycling to work (last couple of months and really enjoying it) but I am curious about the rules regarding the cycle lanes that run along the road, the ones with the broken white line.

I was of the understanding that cars can drive into these provided that there is no cyclist in the lane and that cars were not allowed to stop in these lanes. Is this a correct understanding?

If I am right how come the make the car lane beside these cycle lanes so narrow that when cars are stopped in traffic they have no choice but to be stopped in the cycle lane? Is there any point in these lanes?

While I am here, I might as well bring up another point. I have noticed that Dublin Bus drivers are very careful around cyclists and show them some distance on the bus/cycle lanes but the drivers of coaches in particular the Air Coach seem determined to drive as close as possible to the cyclist, however no one is as bad as some of the taxi drivers, beeping when you are in front of them, racing to get ahead of you and then stopping dead (with the hazards on) to pick up a fare ten yards later.

Mini rant over...

rubadub · 09-11-2007 3:10pm

High&Low wrote: »

If I am right how come the make the car lane beside these cycle lanes so narrow that when cars are stopped in traffic they have no choice but to be stopped in the cycle lane? Is there any point in these lanes?

All they do is make motorists aware to be on the lookout, also if you are cycling in one and a car comes to overtake, they will hopefully not overtake you while their car is partially inside the lines. Keeps the car out of the gutter so you can usually squeeze past.

There are a lot of old threads about the legality of them.

daymobrew · 09-11-2007 3:50pm

High&Low wrote: »

I have recently started cycling to work (last couple of months and really enjoying it) but I am curious about the rules regarding the cycle lanes that run along the road, the ones with the broken white line.

I was of the understanding that cars can drive into these provided that there is no cyclist in the lane and that cars were not allowed to stop in these lanes. Is this a correct understanding?

Check section 17 of the new Rules of the Road. Basically, the ones with the broken white lines are quite useless.

Rules of the Road, page 160 wrote:

A driver may park in a non-mandatory cycle track for up to 30 minutes, but only if they are loading and unloading their vehicle and there is no alternative parking available. Remember the basic duty of care and do not obstruct a cycle track.

High&Low wrote: »

If I am right how come the make the car lane beside these cycle lanes so narrow that when cars are stopped in traffic they have no choice but to be stopped in the cycle lane? Is there any point in these lanes?

Not really, except for bloating statistics.

High&Low wrote: »

While I am here, I might as well bring up another point. I have noticed that Dublin Bus drivers are very careful around cyclists and show them some distance on the bus/cycle lanes but the drivers of coaches in particular the Air Coach seem determined to drive as close as possible to the cyclist, however no one is as bad as some of the taxi drivers, beeping when you are in front of them, racing to get ahead of you and then stopping dead (with the hazards on) to pick up a fare ten yards later.

Write to Dublin Bus to praise the drivers, to Air Coach to report their drivers (get license plate and time/date/location) and to the Taxi Regulator (or the Gardai) about taxi drivers.

Tomas_V · 09-11-2007 6:34pm

I was of the understanding that cars can drive into these provided that there is no cyclist in the lane and that cars were not allowed to stop in these lanes. Is this a correct understanding?

Yes.

If I am right how come the make the car lane beside these cycle lanes so narrow that when cars are stopped in traffic they have no choice but to be stopped in the cycle lane? Is there any point in these lanes?

You misunderstand. It's not that the car lane is too narrow. The car is too wide. Drivers must not stop in a cycle track, they're only allowed drive along or through.

daymobrew · 09-11-2007 7:39pm

Tomas_V wrote: »

You misunderstand. It's not that the car lane is too narrow. The car is too wide. Drivers must not stop in a cycle track, they're only allowed drive along or through.

I believe OP is is talking about the non-mandatory lanes painted when there isn't space, like on SCR at N4.

Stopping because of traffic is permitted, just like it is on double yellow lines.

zorkmundsson · 09-11-2007 7:40pm

what i hate is the quality of some of the cycle lanes. the one between rte and belfield is an absolute death trap, full of storm drains, half-assed tarmaccing and holes. lunacy.

Tomas_V · 09-11-2007 9:22pm

daymobrew wrote: »

Stopping because of traffic is permitted, just like it is on double yellow lines.

Where (in what regulation) is it permitted?

unionman · 10-11-2007 11:50am

High&Low wrote: »

I have noticed that Dublin Bus drivers are very careful around cyclists and show them some distance on the bus/cycle lanes but the drivers of coaches in particular the Air Coach seem determined to drive as close as possible to the cyclist, however no one is as bad as some of the taxi drivers, beeping when you are in front of them, racing to get ahead of you and then stopping dead (with the hazards on) to pick up a fare ten yards later.

Glad to hear your experience of Dublin Bus drivers is positive, though be warned, there are a few exceptions out there (quite a few) that might alter your perception. I was overtaken on the Finglas road by a bus travelling at around 60kph a couple of weeks ago. Despite the fact that there was nothing else on the road he left me all of a couple of cm's to spare. The bike did a serious wobble and scared the Bjaysuss out of me.

I wasn't in the bike lane because of poor visibility/surface condition, but considered myself safe as there was literally nothing around me. The newer buses engines are practically silent, so I didn't hear him coming either.

I challenged him at the lights at Phibsboro, telling him he was too fast and too close. He laughed at me, told me I should have been in the bike lane and said he wanted to teach me a lesson. It was the last part that worried me - if there are drivers of any type of vehicle out there determined to 'teach cyclists a lesson', then fatalities are only a matter of time.

daymobrew · 10-11-2007 2:43pm

Tomas_V wrote: »

Where (in what regulation) is it permitted?

I don't know the specific regulation but I mean that people are allowed to stop (not park) when traffic dictates e.g. if there is a traffic jam, cars are permitted to stop on double yellow lines - it would be physically impossible to do otherwise.

unionman wrote: »

He laughed at me, told me I should have been in the bike lane and said he wanted to teach me a lesson.

Please report this incident and that statement to Dublin Bus AND to the Gardai.

The non-mandatory cycle tracks on SCR @ N4 are sorta shown in robfitz's photo. In the bottom of the photo you can see the dashed line and just about make out the right edge of the car lane. The car lane is much narrower than a car.

Tomas_V · 10-11-2007 5:25pm

daymobrew wrote: »

I don't know the specific regulation but I mean that people are allowed to stop (not park) when traffic dictates e.g. if there is a traffic jam, cars are permitted to stop on double yellow lines - it would be physically impossible to do otherwise. Please report this incident and that statement to Dublin Bus AND to the Gardai.

I think comparison iwth double-yellow lines is not a good one. Since, broken-white lines can only be used to mark cycle tracks which form part of a footway, a better comparison would be stopping on a pedestrian crossing.

unionman · 10-11-2007 10:24pm

daymobrew wrote: »

Please report this incident and that statement to Dublin Bus AND to the Gardai.

Hi daymobrew, yes, I intend to do that (and told the driver I would). As a matter of interest, has anyone a suggestion as to who the best person/department is to contact in Dublin Bus?

daymobrew · 11-11-2007 10:35am

Tomas_V wrote: »

Since, broken-white lines can only be used to mark cycle tracks which form part of a footway

Not in my experience. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

unionman wrote: »

Hi daymobrew, yes, I intend to do that (and told the driver I would). As a matter of interest, has anyone a suggestion as to who the best person/department is to contact in Dublin Bus?

Contact the Inspector of the depot for that route. The depot for the route is listed at the bottom of the online timetable.
Do it quickly - they might have footage of the incident recorded on the bus's forward facing camera. The cynic in me says not to mention that you're going to the Gardai as they might erase the evidence.
It might be good to phone first and then put it in writing.

Tomas_V · 11-11-2007 11:48am

daymobrew wrote: »

Not in my experience. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

The regulations for road markings only allow for the broken white line to be used to mark the edges where the cycle track is on a footway. A continuous white line must be used to mark the edge of a cycle track which forms part of a roadway.

So, taking your examples:

1: That part of the roadway is a footway.
or
2: It's not a cycle track.
or
3:They've used the wrong markings.

tywy · 11-11-2007 12:22pm

Aren't there broken white lines if other traffic may have to cross the cycle lane when changing lanes...

Tomas_V · 11-11-2007 3:27pm

tywy wrote: »

Aren't there broken white likes if other traffic may have to cross the cycle lane when changing lanes...

True, that would mean that they're not cycle tracks at all, but are 'narrow vehicle lanes'. Crossing a lane is permitted. Stopping in one, while crossing, is not. Drivers have to give way to traffic using the lane they're crossing.

Just re-reading the regulations, there seems to be no mention anywhere of cycle tracks bounded by a broken white line. It's always a continuous white line. Either a single one for on-road or two parallel continuous white lines (left and right boundaries), about 1 metre apart, if on-footpath.

unionman · 11-11-2007 7:32pm

[QUOTE=daymobrew;54395985 Contact the Inspector of the depot for that route. The depot for the route is listed at the bottom of the online timetable.
Do it quickly - they might have footage of the incident recorded on the bus's forward facing camera. The cynic in me says not to mention that you're going to the Gardai as they might erase the evidence.
It might be good to phone first and then put it in writing.[/QUOTE]

Many thanks, doing that now.

U.

blorg · 12-11-2007 1:36pm

zorkmundsson wrote: »

what i hate is the quality of some of the cycle lanes. the one between rte and belfield is an absolute death trap, full of storm drains, half-assed tarmaccing and holes. lunacy.

That is a particularly crazy one all right, quite unusable.

unionman wrote:

told me I should have been in the bike lane and said he wanted to teach me a lesson.

I have had this exact same experience with a couple of drivers on the Stillorgan Road where there is another unusable cycle lane- as have others on this forum. Overtaking much too fast and close, and then actually turning into you. Unfortunately didn't report them at the time.

CountryWise · 12-11-2007 3:26pm

Anyone ever go over Leeson St Bridge(heading for the green) and see how the buses use the full bike lane without consideration on the hump of the bridge? the amount of times i have had to pull back

Ghost Rider · 12-11-2007 3:28pm

I notice it every day when I'm coming home from work. I don't resent buses doing it half as much as I resent cars doing it, though.

CountryWise wrote: »

Anyone ever go over Leeson St Bridge(heading for the green) and see how the buses use the full bike lane without consideration on the hump of the bridge? the amount of time i have had to pull back

Rowley Birkin QC · 12-11-2007 3:33pm

[Puts on flame retardant suit]

Maybe if cyclists paid road tax like motorists/truckers/coach operators/anyone else who uses the road ,then people would be more respectful to cycle lanes. Also, cyclists who observed red lights would help the cause too.

I'll get me coat.

Ghost Rider · 12-11-2007 3:38pm

Next time a cyclist kills someone on the roads, I'll drop a quid into the Revenue Commissioner.

bigkev49 wrote: »

[Puts on flame retardant suit]

Maybe if cyclists paid road tax like motorists/truckers/coach operators/anyone else who uses the road ,then people would be more respectful to cycle lanes. Also, cyclists who observed red lights would help the cause too.

I'll get me coat.

CountryWise · 12-11-2007 3:41pm

Plus i pay motor tax as i drive at the weekends.

FTW - I cycle during the week to help the environment

Bicyclegadabout · 12-11-2007 4:10pm

bigkev49 wrote: »

[Puts on flame retardant suit]

Maybe if cyclists paid road tax like motorists/truckers/coach operators/anyone else who uses the road ,then people would be more respectful to cycle lanes.
Also, cyclists who observed red lights would help the cause too.

I'll get me coat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29
http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/contents.html

Mucco · 12-11-2007 4:28pm

bigkev49 wrote: »

[Puts on flame retardant suit]

Maybe if cyclists paid road tax like motorists/truckers/coach operators/anyone else who uses the road ,then people would be more respectful to cycle lanes.

While you've got that suit on:

Should road tax be related to:

Road space and damage
Emissions
Engine size

In each case, it would cost more to tax cyclists than the tax would raise. For example, in the first case, my bike weighs 8Kg compared to over a ton for a car, road damage is related to the cube of axle weight, therefore my tax would be in cents.

For the record, I think cycle lanes are a waste of space and rarely use them.

M

Raam · 12-11-2007 4:32pm

bigkev49 wrote: »

[Puts on flame retardant suit]

Maybe if cyclists paid road tax like motorists/truckers/coach operators/anyone else who uses the road ,then people would be more respectful to cycle lanes.

I know you said this to get a reaction, but in all seriousness, the payment of so called "road tax" does not actually change the rules of the road.

I have no doubt that drivers attitudes would not change even if cyclists were required to pay a specific "cycling tax". It might give cyclists a bigger voice, but the motorists would still dominate.

bigkev49 wrote: »

Also, cyclists who observed red lights would help the cause too.

I agree, I don't advocate the practice of breaking lights.

Tomas_V · 12-11-2007 7:36pm

bigkev49 wrote: »

Maybe if cyclists paid road tax like motorists/truckers/coach operators/anyone else who uses the road

I hope you know the rules of the road better than tax law.

There is, of course, no such thing as 'road tax'. There is 'motor tax'. Since we live in a democracy, everyone has equal rights to use public facilities such as roads. The cost in terms of taxes is related to your choice of vehicle. You make expensive choices, you pay more.

And of course, cyclists pay tax too. Some pay more than motorists.

tywy · 12-11-2007 8:12pm

Tomas_V wrote: »

I hope you know the rules of the road better than tax law.

There is, of course, no such thing as 'road tax'. There is 'motor tax'. Since we live in a democracy, everyone has equal rights to use public facilities such as roads. The cost in terms of taxes is related to your choice of vehicle. You make expensive choices, you pay more.

And of course, cyclists pay tax too. Some pay more than motorists.

A point well made!

Limestone1 · 13-11-2007 2:17pm

bigkev49 wrote: »

[Puts on flame retardant suit]

Maybe if cyclists paid road tax like motorists/truckers/coach operators/anyone else who uses the road ........

I'll get me coat.

Pedestrians , dog walkers, pram pushers , joggers, ?

rubadub · 13-11-2007 4:23pm

bigkev49 wrote: »

[Puts on flame retardant suit]

Maybe if cyclists paid road tax like motorists/truckers/coach operators/anyone else who uses the road ,then people would be more respectful to cycle lanes. Also, cyclists who observed red lights would help the cause too.

I'll get me coat.

Pedestrians break more red lights than any group. Some pedestrians dont pay motor tax either, just like some cyclists do not. If you do not own a "motor" you pay no tax, makes sense to me. Yet most motorists seem to be more "respectul" to footpaths than cycletracks/ways. Maybe it is since the people who developed and set down the laws & designs for footpaths actually use them- and so make they are more suitable for their purpose. But I expect it is more likely that they see pedestrians as "one of us", and as they do not cycle they view cyclists in the same prejudice way as other "minority groups"

SerialComplaint · 13-11-2007 10:02pm

bigkev49 wrote: »

[Puts on flame retardant suit]

Maybe if cyclists paid road tax like motorists/truckers/coach operators/anyone else who uses the road ,then people would be more respectful to cycle lanes. Also, cyclists who observed red lights would help the cause too.

I'll get me coat.

1) Many cyclists do pay road tax. If you want to play silly buggers, I'll bet a fiver that I pay more road tax than you do. I choose to leave the jeep at home. I cycle by choice, not because I don't have a car.

Now is there any chance of a bit of fraternal respect?

2) How many of the drivers who complain about cyclists breaking red lights broke the speed limit today?

unionman · 14-11-2007 11:14am

SerialComplaint wrote: »

1) Many cyclists do pay road tax. If you want to play silly buggers, I'll bet a fiver that I pay more road tax than you do. I choose to leave the jeep at home. I cycle by choice, not because I don't have a car.

Now is there any chance of a bit of fraternal respect?

2) How many of the drivers who complain about cyclists breaking red lights broke the speed limit today?

Hear hear!:D

Cycle Lanes

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