Schols Schols Schols, information and venting thread.

tolosenc

I was going to have another shot at schols in 3rd year (got 68% in 2nd year IIRC), but I was on Erasmus and they clashed with me having exams in France and not giving a sh!te about anything academic...

By all means go for it, but don't let it become an obsession - it's not actually that big a deal! It's huge when you're a 2nd year, but most of the 4th year scholars I know are a tad apathetic about it.

languagenerd wrote: »

I think it was Tolosenc who said it somewhere in this thread too.

That must've required a fair bit of digging! French Dept. never give over 75% and a tutor once hinted that we should consider 75% as 100%.

ApeXaviour

tolosenc wrote: »

French Dept. never give over 75% and a tutor once hinted that we should consider 75% as 100%.

That sounds more consistent. Marking out of 70 doesn't make sense if there are people averaging I's.

stesh

almostnever wrote: »

I'm considering giving it a go myself but I don't really know if I'd be cut out for it. I suppose the general advice is to give it a lash and see what happens?

There really isn't any good reason not to give it a try; you've got nothing to lose.

stesh

tolosenc wrote: »

I was going to have another shot at schols in 3rd year (got 68% in 2nd year IIRC), but I was on Erasmus and they clashed with me having exams in France and not giving a sh!te about anything academic...

By all means go for it, but don't let it become an obsession - it's not actually that big a deal! It's huge when you're a 2nd year, but most of the 4th year scholars I know are a tad apathetic about it.



That must've required a fair bit of digging! French Dept. never give over 75% and a tutor once hinted that we should consider 75% as 100%.

The French department definitely does give over 75% - it has happened a number of times in my written language class this year. In any case, how does that fact that it rarely happens imply that the department doesn't mark out of 100%?

From the Senior Freshman course handbook for this year (page 6, in relation to TSM coursework essays):

In marking these essays, 70% of the mark is given to content, and 30% to the French language.

Notron

languagenerd wrote: »

Nobody in either of my TSM classes got it this year , the way they mark Arts (and Law, I can see the similarity in the essay-style papers) is ridiculous. I'm not being a sore loser - I know I definitely didn't do as well as I could have - but in general, for these subjects there's no real marking scheme, it's all based on what impression the exmainer gets of you and whether they agree with your opinion or not! I think it's a pretty bad show that so few Arts students get it (considering that the points for the Arts courses in TCD aren't significantly different to Science, so it's not that we're less intelligent!)

I do a science course so cant say much about the art/law content.....but this year two of the foundation scholars were from TSM....so to say that arts aren't doing well or as well as science courses in schols is slightly ridiculous!.....to be a foundation scholar you have to be getting fairly perfect scores......so they definitely got way above 70%......

languagenerd

A lecturer in the French department actually told one of my classes that last year. The only person who's ever given me over 70 for an essay is my written language tutor, who's a postgrad and doesn't mark the actual exams . Literature is always out of 70.
(this isn't including grammar exams which are marked out of 100 as they have right/wrong answers, got 92 in that last year which helpfully brought me up to a I)

Gah, I really didn't mean to start this debate .

tolosenc

stesh wrote: »

The French department definitely does give over 75% - it has happened a number of times in my written language class this year. In any case, how does that fact that it rarely happens imply that the department doesn't mark out of 100%?

I was referring to exam time - I've hit the high 70s on a number of occasions in translations/essays.

Fair point about no occurrences not implying no possibility, but, effectively if you're getting 75% from French, you're not really doing much wrong.

The comparison being made really is between Science and Arts. Toronto Schol from 08 got like 95% average, right? I know a TSM foundation Schol from the same year who got 74%.

antiselfdual

About the Foundation point: Foundation Scholarships (insofar as they exist as a thing) are distributed out between the different faculties in some manner, not given straight to the top 14 or whatever people based on percentage marks in Schols of a given year. I guess this may be an attempt to redress the marking imbalances between different faculties...

stesh

tolosenc wrote: »

[E]ffectively if you're getting 75% from French, you're not really doing much wrong.

I guess so. Although, (again referring to the handbook) the criterion for a first in French is that your work almost be able to pass as that of a literate native speaker - higher firsts should correspond to better-constructed arguments, richer use of vocabulary, awareness of registers, etc.

oharach

stesh wrote: »

The French department definitely does give over 75% - it has happened a number of times in my written language class this year. In any case, how does that fact that it rarely happens imply that the department doesn't mark out of 100%?

From the Senior Freshman course handbook for this year (page 6, in relation to TSM coursework essays):

The language departments mark out of 80. It may be possible that class tests are marked out of 100, but not university exams. I know this because I got full marks in a grammar paper as a JF and got 80. It's pretty common knowledge. The same applies in the law school.

The different marking systems are unfair, as it is substantially easier for non-arts/humanities students to get schol. Of those that do, almost none are Foundation Scholars. The last Foundation Scholar in law was Desmond Ryan – in 2002.

almostnever

oharach wrote: »

The language departments mark out of 80. It may be possible that class tests are marked out of 100, but not university exams. I know this because I got full marks in a grammar paper as a JF and got 80. It's pretty common knowledge. The same applies in the law school.

The different marking systems are unfair, as it is substantially easier for non-arts/humanities students to get schol. Of those that do, almost none are Foundation Scholars. The last Foundation Scholar in law was Desmond Ryan – in 2002.

Des Ryan is just a hero in general, we shouldn't be comparing mere mortals to him.

stesh

oharach wrote: »

The language departments mark out of 80. It may be possible that class tests are marked out of 100, but not university exams. I know this because I got full marks in a grammar paper as a JF and got 80. It's pretty common knowledge.

Again, this is completely unfounded speculation. If you read the departmental regulations, it's pretty clear that exams are marked out of 100. This makes sense, since each section of the JF grammar paper is worth either 10 or 20 marks, adding to a total of 200.

(87% in JF Grammar )

oharach

stesh wrote: »

Again, this is completely unfounded speculation. If you read the departmental regulations, it's pretty clear that exams are marked out of 100. This makes sense, since each section of the JF grammar paper is worth either 10 or 20 marks, adding to a total of 200.

(87% in JF Grammar )

It is absolutely not speculation. It is the situation in law and in German. The situation may be different in other languages. It is even possible things changed last year with semesterisation/restructuring. But the position up to and including last year is 80 MAX in those subjects.

The argument with the regulations doesn't hold water. Yes, it explains relative weighting. But if all of the marks given are then below 80 (as they are in law and in German), the maximum mark you can get is 80. The percentage weightings add up to 100, or 200 in your case; the maximum mark doesn't in some subjects.

My example still stands that in JF Grammar I got everything right (and it was either right or wrong) and got 80. 100 was not possible.

stesh

oharach wrote: »

It is absolutely not speculation. It is the situation in law and in German. The situation may be different in other languages. It is even possible things changed last year with semesterisation/restructuring. But the position up to and including last year is 80 MAX in those subjects.

The argument with the regulations doesn't hold water. Yes, it explains relative weighting. But if all of the marks given are then below 80 (as they are in law and in German), the maximum mark you can get is 80. The percentage weightings add up to 100, or 200 in your case; the maximum mark doesn't in some subjects.

My example still stands that in JF Grammar I got everything right (and it was either right or wrong) and got 80. 100 was not possible.

If you got everything right, and the exam was marked out of 80 marks, you got 100% in that exam.

The argument here is over whether or not language departments ever award over 80 percent in their exams.

Again, from the French departmental regulations:

5. In the first instance, calculations of results will be mathematical based on the university’s general scheme (or reductions or multiples thereof):

Fail 2 extremely weak 0 - 29%
Fail 1 weak 30 - 39%
Third adequate 40 - 49%
Lower Second quite good 50 - 59%
Upper Second good 60 - 69%
First excellent 70 - 100%

Where, in the case of an individual course, a scheme other than the one outlined above is in use, the Department will make returns according to that convention. Where the course requires a mark out of more than 100 to be returned, the Department will use that convention to make a return. The Department will ensure through its Handbooks or otherwise that candidates for examinations are aware of the weighting of the respective components, and where questions on a given paper are not equally weighted, the rubric shall indicate the weighting of the components within the paper.

From those of the department of Germanic Studies:

Marking System
In Trinity, the following system is used in marking exams and assessed work. The words in brackets indicate how each grade is pronounced when said aloud.
I (first) 70 - 100
II.1 (two-one or upper second) 60 - 79
II.2 (two-two or lower second) 50 - 59
III (third) 40 - 49
F1 30 - 39
F2 0 - 29
The letter F in the last two marks stands for fail.

Groinshot

The above argument proves that you can still be an idiot and do an arts degree... If you get marked out of 80, and you get everything right, you get 80. That's 100%, not 80%.

Sir Ophiuchus

Groinshot wrote: »

The above argument proves that you can still be an idiot and do an arts degree... If you get marked out of 80, and you get everything right, you get 80. That's 100%, not 80%.

It seems that you're missing the point. What they meant by "marked out of 70" was that a grade out of 70 was given and then entered as if it were a percentage (out of 100).

Finicking about wording aside, can we agree that it is categorically much easier to score high percentage marks on science and mathematical subjects than arts subjects?

Groinshot

Sir Ophiuchus wrote: »

It seems that you're missing the point. What they meant by "marked out of 70" was that a grade out of 70 was given and then entered as if it were a percentage (out of 100).

Finicking about wording aside, can we agree that it is categorically much easier to score high percentage marks on science and mathematical subjects than arts subjects?

He's already said that the weighting might add up to 100. Also, I think he's just pissed he didn't get 100%.

And on your other point, I don't agree really. It's simply because our answers are right or wrong (Engineering) whereas arts subjects can be marked in a number of different ways. If someone who gets 95% in any sort of science based exam, and someone who gets 65% in an equivalent level arts subject, Which is more impressive?

Sir Ophiuchus

Sir Ophiuchus wrote: »

Finicking about wording aside, can we agree that it is categorically much easier to score high percentage marks on science and mathematical subjects than arts subjects?

No.

Arts students will always think they've got it harder. Science students will always think they've got it harder. It's something we should probably put in the "Agree to disagree" pile.

(Although exams aside, when I have a 28 hour week which pretty much spans 10am to 6pm every day, including a Monday that's 10am to 6pm with NO BREAK at all, I find it hard to have sympathy for Arts students. And before anyone says it, Science students have reading lists too, ours just contain a smaller number of bigger books, rather than a large number of smaller books.)

Groinshot

true-or-false wrote: »

No.

Arts students will always think they've got it harder. Science students will always think they've got it harder. It's something we should probably put in the "Agree to disagree" pile.

(Although exams aside, when I have a 28 hour week which pretty much spans 10am to 6pm every day, including a Monday that's 10am to 6pm with NO BREAK at all, I find it hard to have sympathy for Arts students. And before anyone says it, Science students have reading lists too, ours just contain a smaller number of bigger books, rather than a large number of smaller books.)

Also, we fail if we don't do our reading.(Science subjects)

oharach

Sir Ophiuchus wrote: »

It seems that you're missing the point. What they meant by "marked out of 70" was that a grade out of 70 was given and then entered as if it were a percentage (out of 100).

This is exactly what I meant.

@Groinshot, Stesh: My JF language paper was marked out of 200. I realise that 200/200 is 100% in the normal world. However, it is recorded as 80 on my transcript, i.e. full marks. I don't necessarily think it should be that way, and there probably should be parity with science subjects, i.e. it should be 100.

I wish those of you who quote departmental regulations at me the very best of luck with their degrees. In the end, they mean very little to certain departments. But you should take some time to understand the difference between a weighting and a mark.

And don't call me an idiot again. I'm not at Cambridge for nothing.

Groinshot

oharach wrote: »

And don't call me an idiot again. I'm not at Cambridge for nothing.

Still doing an arts degree though.

oharach

Groinshot wrote: »

Still doing an arts degree though.

Law is a humanity/social science.

Don't be so damned presumptive, and stop trying to cause an argument.

ApeXaviour

Groinshot wrote: »

Still doing an arts degree though.

Less of this kind of thing please, take it to PM.

PurpleFistMixer

oharach wrote: »

And don't call me an idiot again. I'm not at Cambridge for nothing.

lawl

Pet

I second your lawl. Because what else is there to say to that, really?

Sir Ophiuchus

Groinshot wrote: »

If someone who gets 95% in any sort of science based exam, and someone who gets 65% in an equivalent level arts subject, Which is more impressive?

Could be about the same, actually. I've gotten ninety-something in a stats exam in psychology, and a 78 in an English essay, and I was definitely more ecstatic about the English grade.

The issue - regardless of who has it harder or easier - is that I think that since the cutoff grade for Schol. is 70 across all disciplines, even though getting a grade above 70 is easier in some disciplines than others, it does actually make it harder for those in the arts and social sciences to get Schol.

Podge_irl

oharach wrote: »

@Groinshot, Stesh: My JF language paper was marked out of 200. I realise that 200/200 is 100% in the normal world. However, it is recorded as 80 on my transcript, i.e. full marks. I don't necessarily think it should be that way, and there probably should be parity with science subjects, i.e. it should be 100.

Did you look at your paper?



Schols is not easier to get in the science subjects. As far as I'm aware there isn't, in general, a larger number of firsts in the sciences. There is however a much larger spread of marks. Different thing.

tehjimmeh

Err... if I got a clear cut 100% in an exam and was given a mark of 80% I'd be fiercely contesting my mark. I'm going to conjecture that this isn't a very common practice. I can't fathom how it could be the case what with students having the right to contest marks and external examiners etc. .

Sir Ophiuchus wrote: »

Could be about the same, actually. I've gotten ninety-something in a stats exam in psychology, and a 78 in an English essay, and I was definitely more ecstatic about the English grade.

The issue - regardless of who has it harder or easier - is that I think that since the cutoff grade for Schol. is 70 across all disciplines, even though getting a grade above 70 is easier in some disciplines than others, it does actually make it harder for those in the arts and social sciences to get Schol.

What you're neglecting to consider is how massive a pitfall tiny mistakes can be in science/maths subjects. Getting <40% in a schol exam is a very real prospect for a good science/maths subject student, whereas that would be much, much less likely to happen to a good arts student. I think there's much more extreme positive and negative feedback in science/maths based subjects. You could spend 20/30 minutes in an exam trying to work out a maths question to no avail and come away with 0 marks. On the other hand, if you start off on the right foot with a question, you're likely to get a very high mark in it, as parts of questions can often be dependent on having worked out previous parts correctly etc.

So in reality, I think the only difference is there's a higher likelihood of a greater variance in the marks obtained in different exams by science/maths subject scholars.

Also, while there's a high potential for trolling material in this, I think it's possible that the numbers getting schols in any particular course can be at least partially affected by the type of people who go into that course. For example, the reason a high amount of med students get schols every year, or the reason why a Maths/TP student generally is the Toronto Scholar, isn't down to it being any easier to get high marks in these subjects than any other subject.

Fringe

How do I find out what my breakdown was? I was told to email Helen in maths but she told me to ask each lecturer individually. Is there anyone who has all my results?

tehjimmeh

Fringe wrote: »

How do I find out what my breakdown was? I was told to email Helen in maths but she told me to ask each lecturer individually. Is there anyone who has all my results?

I asked my tutor and he was able to get them for me. I imagine it differs by department.