Schols Schols Schols, information and venting thread.

EuropeanSon

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

:eek: You're Maths, right? What paper did you mess up?

Third one. (Back in the day, there were only three)

I got the second highest grade out of all the maths and maths TSMs that year on that paper, too.

Even doing an hour a day you will be sick to death looking at it come October when actual schol study starts. We all recommend not to do it, but at the end of the day it's your choice and no one will force you not to study; it's your responsibility to organise your study for schols so if you really want to push yourself over the summer then work away, but be prepared to deal with the potential consequences. I didn't get a break from study the year I did schols until the following summer so I was long awaiting some down time, I can't imagine how much more wrecked I'd have been if I'd studied the previous summer too.

Mr Pseudonym

Given that the question of the benefit of summer study has been asked numerous times, perhaps a poll should be started to reinforce the overwhelming consensus - that it is detrimental to chances.

234

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Given that the question of the benefit of summer study has been asked numerous times, perhaps a poll should be started to reinforce the overwhelming consensus - that it is detrimental to chances.

But you would need to somehow limit the poll to users who have got schols. That doesn't seem feasible.

Mr Pseudonym

234 wrote: »

But you would need to somehow limit the poll to users who have got schols. That doesn't seem feasible.

I could be wrong, but I don't think many would seek to sabotage the poll.

FaoiSin

I didn't personally study during the summer but I can't see how doing a little bit would hinder you in any way. I did the majority of my work late Nov/Dec but could depend on the course.

outnumbered

Thanks for the replies. I really don't think three hours of study a week over the summer would be detrimental to my chances of getting schols. Honestly, can hard work alone get schols or does there have to be an abundance of intelligence too? Obviously if i got into trinity I am not stupid but I am more of a hard worker than anything else. Is it still possible to get schols? I need to study over and over to retain information and it doesn't come naturally to me. I just wonder if i should even attempt it.... any advice?

Mr Pseudonym

outnumbered wrote: »

Obviously if i got into trinity I am not stupid...

In my experience, that rule has many exceptions.

outnumbered

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

In my experience, that rule has many exceptions.

OK, but anyway, I am not stupid. In my opinion anyway :P

Mr Pseudonym

outnumbered wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. I really don't think three hours of study a week over the summer would be detrimental to my chances of getting schols. Honestly, can hard work alone get schols or does there have to be an abundance of intelligence too? Obviously if i got into trinity I am not stupid but I am more of a hard worker than anything else. Is it still possible to get schols? I need to study over and over to retain information and it doesn't come naturally to me. I just wonder if i should even attempt it.... any advice?

"Of those students graduating with a First Class degree in Science in the 1995-2004 period, 40% were Scholars, and of those who were awarded a gold medal, 37% were Scholars."

--That is: forty percent of all Firsts were awarded to the ~2%* who are Scholars--

*The 2% figure is an average of the proportion in Science for the ten-year period since 2005

Review of the Scholarship Examination


Having not sat Schols, but based on the above and conversations I've had with a few who have, there is a high correlation between academic performance and success in Schols. But, IMO, much of academic performance is related to application (in conjunction with a certain amount of innate intelligence). Therefore, I suspect that were the work-ethic ofOxbridge transferred to TCD the number reaching the current Schols standard would increase.

Mr Pseudonym

The previous reason for on-campus accommodation for Scholars was that they were close to the library and other facilities, thereby benefiting them in their academic pursuits. With JS scholars being housed in Halls, is there any justification for accommodation provision any more? Perhaps giving a cash amount of, say, €2k in the JS-year and on-campus accommodation in the scholar's final undergraduate year (ie exam year) plus all subsequent graduate years would be appropriate. Thoughts?

lfqnic

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

The previous reason for on-campus accommodation for Scholars was that they were close to the library and other facilities, thereby benefiting them in their academic pursuits. With JS scholars being housed in Halls, is there any justification for accommodation provision any more? Perhaps giving a cash amount of, say, €2k in the JS-year and on-campus accommodation in the scholar's final undergraduate year (ie exam year) plus all subsequent graduate years would be appropriate. Thoughts?

I did schols to remove enormous financial pressure. €2k, while certainly not nothing, would still mean a further year of several thousand euro in rent, which in turn would probably mean being obliged to work in a year that counts towards the degree. My understanding of schols is that the great short-term pressure is rewarded by security; you convince the uni that you're worth an investment, and you no longer have to face financial precarity and distractions. I don't see how the recent change of itself justifies more changes - why would you slash it further?

234

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

The previous reason for on-campus accommodation for Scholars was that they were close to the library and other facilities, thereby benefiting them in their academic pursuits. With JS scholars being housed in Halls, is there any justification for accommodation provision any more? Perhaps giving a cash amount of, say, €2k in the JS-year and on-campus accommodation in the scholar's final undergraduate year (ie exam year) plus all subsequent graduate years would be appropriate. Thoughts?

If you take the cash in lieu of rooms you get ~€2,100.

Mr Pseudonym

lfqnic wrote: »

I did schols to remove enormous financial pressure. €2k, while certainly not nothing, would still mean a further year of several thousand euro in rent, which in turn would probably mean being obliged to work in a year that counts towards the degree. My understanding of schols is that the great short-term pressure is rewarded by security; you convince the uni that you're worth an investment, and you no longer have to face financial precarity and distractions. I don't see how the recent change of itself justifies more changes - why would you slash it further?

I didn't consider that accommodation provision would reduce one's need to work, resulting in freeing up time for academic application. However, in not providing a generous "salary", it still requires that some people work. It should also be acknowledged that many Scholars would likely continue to live at home were they not to receive accommodation. Would you be happy to be housed in non-Trinity accommodation, then, given that the need to be near College facilities doesn't seem to form part of your argument?

As for why I would consider "slash(ing) it further": first, I'm not a Scholar (:p); second, moving the Schols-accommodation-provision off-campus removes the symbolism of having the most academic of the Sophister years on-campus, and reduces the benefit to them.

Anita Blow

It wouldn't happen. It would have to be voted on as Scholar accommodation privileges are in the statutes. Neither the foundation scholars or the fellows would approve it.
The actual & original reason for housing Scholars on-campus is to create a collegial atmosphere & promote the exchange of ideas amongst the most academic of students. Being near college facilities was not the original intention, but it is a benefit that comes with being housed on-campus.
What is the point of reducing the benefit of the most academic of Sophisters? The goal of Foundation Scholarship is to reward academic success. If someone has proven themselves in that regard then why should they have a benefit stripped from them

Mr Pseudonym

Anita Blow wrote: »

It wouldn't happen. It would have to be voted on as Scholar accommodation privileges are in the statutes. Neither the foundation scholars or the fellows would approve it.
The actual & original reason for housing Scholars on-campus is to create a collegial atmosphere & promote the exchange of ideas amongst the most academic of students. Being near college facilities was not the original intention, but it is a benefit that comes with being housed on-campus.
What is the point of reducing the benefit of the most academic of Sophisters?

I think you're rather complacent given the cuts that have already occurred.

A central part of that "collegiate atmosphere" is surely that they are close to academic facilities.

The goal of Foundation Scholarship is to reward academic success. If someone has proven themselves in that regard then why should they have a benefit stripped from them.

Academic success is still rewarded (to be pedantic, rather than academic success, I think Schols rewards potential for academic success). Regarding your final sentence: hypothetically, if one of the benefits of Schols were a million euro in cash, there is a clear argument, despite the Scholar having proved him/her-self, that such an amount is unjustifiable or unsustainable - one of those could potentially be applied in this situation.

234

Anita Blow wrote: »

Neither the foundation scholars or the fellows would approve it.

Minor quibble, but the only thing that requires the assent of the Foundation Scholars is an amendment to the make-up of the body corporate. It's just the Fellows who have to give their assent to amendments to the statutes.

lfqnic

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I didn't consider that accommodation provision would reduce one's need to work, resulting in freeing up time for academic application. However, in not providing a generous "salary", it still requires that some people work.

True, but surely the fact that students already face some hardship isn't an argument for increasing the financial burden? This would be placing a significantly increased financial strain on the students who are meant to be being rewarded with security. As it stands, with commons and accomodation, we're well provided for and it is quite easy to live frugally beyond that. You can skimp on beans and rice, but the same can't be said for rising rents.

As for whether or not I'd be in favour of off-campus provision; well, I'm in favour of what I got, which is the traditional reward given to all scholars until last year. That's what we worked for, and I think it was a mistake to shift the goalposts, though I'm no economist and I know we're under pressure. I know first hand the benefits a dedicated student gets from living on campus, and I hope that doesn't get further eroded. If it DID come to it, though, and it shouldn't IMO, then of course I would rather know that the college will provide me with accommodation than be handed a small lump sum that amounted to a fraction of the cost and left to find somewhere in the middle of a rent crisis.

It should also be acknowledged that many Scholars would likely continue to live at home were they not to receive accommodation.

I think this is your second big blindspot after the work burden part. Plenty of scholars, myself included, aren't from Dublin and wouldn't have the option to live at home. In fact, of the 10 odd I know, it would only be feasible for 2. I know that's ancedotal, but I'm sure precarity plays a role in how motivated some students are to get schols. Ironically for something which is often accused of being elitist, it is an absolute godsend for people like me who just otherwise wouldn't be in the position to consider postgraduate study.

As for why I would consider "slash(ing) it further": first, I'm not a Scholar (:p); second, moving the Schols-accommodation-provision off-campus removes the symbolism of having the most academic of the Sophister years on-campus, and reduces the benefit to them.

Ha!

I still don't see the logic in your reasoning; it seems like your argument is that they have made the deal less sweet, and so might as well continue to chip away at it further.

Mr Pseudonym

lfqnic wrote: »

True, but surely the fact that students already face some hardship isn't an argument for increasing the financial burden? This would be placing a significantly increased financial strain on the students who are meant to be being rewarded with security. As it stands, with commons and accomodation, we're well provided for and it is quite easy to live frugally beyond that. You can skimp on beans and rice, but the same can't be said for rising rents.

I don't think equating having to work with hardship is valid.

As for whether or not I'd be in favour of off-campus provision; well, I'm in favour of what I got, which is the traditional reward given to all scholars until last year. That's what we worked for, and I think it was a mistake to shift the goalposts, though I'm no economist and I know we're under pressure. I know first hand the benefits a dedicated student gets from living on campus, and I hope that doesn't get further eroded. If it DID come to it, though, and it shouldn't IMO, then of course I would rather know that the college will provide me with accommodation than be handed a small lump sum that amounted to a fraction of the cost and left to find somewhere in the middle of a rent crisis.

My understanding is that the primary motivation for moving Scholars off-campus is to accommodate international students. I think I gave my opinion on that somewhere on this thread.

A small lump sum? It's the equivalent of over four-month's rent. There are many people on campus struggling; do you think that because you are academically exceptional you should be entitled to the alleviation of all financial obligations?

I think this is your second big blindspot after the work burden part. Plenty of scholars, myself included, aren't from Dublin and wouldn't have the option to live at home. In fact, of the 10 odd I know, it would only be feasible for 2. I know that's ancedotal, but I'm sure precarity plays a role in how motivated some students are to get schols. Ironically for something which is often accused of being elitist, it is an absolute godsend for people like me who just otherwise wouldn't be in the position to consider postgraduate study.

I think I've been respectful of your position, and ask that you be of mine. Rather than it being a difference of judgement, you are portraying mine as being misguided.

I don't know of equivalent stats for Trinity, but 45-50% of UCD students are from Dublin (a further fifteen percent within "commuting distance"). It's difficult to know whether that proportion would be bigger/smaller/same in TCD - on the one hand, one could imagine that those who decide to go to TCD over their local university do so because of Trinity's pre-eminent reputation; on the other, UCD offers such courses as Agriculture which one imagines have high non-Dublin make-up, and many non-Dubs may be put-off by Trinity's reputation for snobbery. It is conceivable that those who come to Trinity from outside of Dublin are more academic than average, and therefore more likely to be successful at Schols. Assuming, however, that not to be the case, and taking the non-Dublin percentage in Trinity as the same as UCD's, as much as half still live at home. I acknowledge that half not living at home is a large percentage, though.

I still don't see the logic in your reasoning; it seems like your argument is that they have made the deal less sweet, and so might as well continue to chip away at it further.

In essence, that is the argument: given that the accommodation isn't on-campus (providing the accompanying academic benefits), potentially there is not enough justification for providing accommodation off-campus.

outnumbered

Is there a percentage of how many people get schols out of those who go for it?

Mr Pseudonym

outnumbered wrote: »

Is there a percentage of how many people get schols out of those who go for it?

How I would love to get hold of Schols data! This is all I know of regarding your query.

EuropeanSon

outnumbered wrote: »

Is there a percentage of how many people get schols out of those who go for it?

It's somewhere in the 15-20% range. I've seen the numbers, can't remember the exact number though, and they aren't publicly available.

Obviously there's a huge bias in terms of the people who actually sit the exams: generally they'll be the people at the top of the class who think they have a chance.

Polka_Dot

A lot of people also sign up then never sit the exams. Not sure if that figure is taking that into account or not though.

EuropeanSon

Polka_Dot wrote: »

A lot of people also sign up then never sit the exams. Not sure if that figure is taking that into account or not though.

It was those who actually sat the exams as far as I recall.

If I wished to sit schols, am I right in thinking that it would be unwise or even foolish to take a broad curriculum module? I see it says in the calender that "candidates intending to present for scholarship should be advised that it is not possible to substitute a Broad Curriculum module as an element of the scholarship examination." So sitting schols and taking a BC module (for the first semester, at least) are essentially incompatible?

KJY

Just wondering, are any crash courses in uncovered material from the second semester provided?

Scrappychimow

Can you use schols to pay for an undergrad in another irish university?

FaoiSin

Scrappychimow wrote: »

Can you use schols to pay for an undergrad in another irish university?

Nope only Trinity :P It's kind of the whole point of it that they reward you so that you stick around

Scrappychimow

JeaicMaG wrote: »

Nope only Trinity :P It's kind of the whole point of it that they reward you so that you stick around

Are you sure?

FaoiSin

Scrappychimow wrote: »

Are you sure?

Yep you can still avail of some of the privileges if you study elsewhere such as commons as far as I know (can't really remember exactly) but they won't pay for you to study in another university.

Edit: After graduation...

"Firstly, on the day you graduate your name is listed in the programme sheet with 'disc. scol.' in parenthesis after your name. But more importantly:

If you graduate and leave college and have nothing more to do with study or research, you are still entitled to your dining rights in Commons for the rest of your time as a Scholar.

If you undertake an approved course of study or research elsewhere, you are entitled to your dining rights and to your Scholar's salary for your time as a Scholar.

If you undertake an approved course of study or research here in College, you are entitled to keep your full emoluments and priviledges for your time as a Scholar. If you are doing a postgraduate degree and are recommended to go elsewhere for up to one year, you can claim full entitlements for that year (as if you are an undergrad on Erasmus), provided you come back to College to continue your studies for at least one year afterwards"

Found this info! Should tell you all you need to know