Will the unthinkable (to them) happen England this weekend?

KdjaCL

Mr Alan wrote: »

English fans havent been the worst for over a decade, dont be so ridiculous.

No question? I'm sure the Dutch, Italian, Serbian, Polish etc etc etc are all angels.

Dont be such a clown.

On internanational stage they are, domestically ....well what do you know? its not that 100 arrests at man utd were reported. Football violence not making the news doesnt mean it didnt happen.

kdjac

LuckyLloyd

Mr Alan wrote: »

English fans havent been the worst for over a decade, dont be so ridiculous.

No question? I'm sure the Dutch, Italian, Serbian, Polish etc etc etc are all angels.

Dont be such a clown.

Clown???!!!!

What the **** are you blabbering on about? Cite me three examples of Dutch, Serbian, Italian or Polish fans engaged in serious public disruption and misbehavior abroad at a major championship?

Yes we all realize that Italian sport has serious internal difficulties. But it doesn't manifest itself when the national team travel abroad.

jameshayes

I think the Dutch & Italians are hostile at club level but I dont think they are bad at internationals?! Well i've never heard much about them causing trouble...

Pigman II

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

My bad, English club sides won the EC in 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82 and 84. They failed to qualify for major tournaments in 76, 78 and 84. In 80 and 82 they reached the dizzying heights of Round 1 and Group Round 2 before being elimated.

Meanwhile their recent run of reaching the quarter finals in 2002, 2004 and 2006 is the most consistently (good)

1980 Round 1 and 1982 Group Round 2 is the equivilant of a QF today.

Also England got to WC86 QF, Euro88 group, WC90 Semi and Euro92 group. Four in a row Once again these are all "last eight or better" achievements which would beat that of either the 66-70 teams or the 2002-06 teams in terms of this "consistency" metric you mention. What does that mean for your theory?

jameshayes

When the english are at a competition the english media show them as 'having a good time' All I see is a bunch of drunken louths who couldnt see their own toes because of their huge beer bellys [/sterotyping]

Mr Alan

shane86 wrote: »

Crouch was awful (though my mate rated him. As said in a prev thread, most posts made by me after crunch games are made after a rake of beer ). Gerrard was average.

Crouch was excellent tonight i thought. Gerrard was awful second half.

KdjaCL wrote: »

On internanational stage they are, domestically ....well what do you know? its not that 100 arrests at man utd were reported. Football violence not making the news doesnt mean it didnt happen.

kdjac

I know there is incidents in England, but they are minor incidents, the arrests at English grounds would mainly be for fighting, drunkeness and ****e like that, they are isolated incidents, whereas the countries i mentioned are at the same stage England were 20 years ago, organised massive fights, just going out to cause trouble etc etc.

IMO England should be applauded for the way they have reduced their once huge hooligan problem.

shane86

LuckyLloyd, while Im no fan of England, in fairness from your example, the Poles and Germans had a bit of a barney after their match last year (Cologne was it? Maybe Frankfurt, cant recall)

As for England, there was trouble in Portugal (considered minor compared to previous years, but if Ireland fans had got this many arrests it would be considered problematic) and there was a large (though not by prev years) amt of English arrested in Germany, Frankfurt for whatever mmatch was meant to be hell.

As for 2002, most of the work shy scumbags couldnt afford to fly to East Asia, so there was little trouble.

Oh man I wish they had qualified for USA 94, Id love to see how the yanks dealt with In-ger-land hooligans outside the rosebowl.

The first of them would probably be getting released from San Quentin just after WC 2010 Id imagine.

LuckyLloyd

KdjaCL wrote: »

On internanational stage they are, domestically ....well what do you know? its not that 100 arrests at man utd were reported. Football violence not making the news doesnt mean it didnt happen.

kdjac

Good point. There have been tens of deaths at or in the aftermath of old firm games during the past decade that get reported as something else. There is also the hardcore element to the fan base of most English club teams and many local derbies are used as an excuse to kick the **** out of one another.

Pepe LeFrits

Pigman II wrote: »

1980 Round 1 and 1982 Group Round 2 is the equivilant of a QF today.

Also England got to WC86 QF, Euro88 group, WC90 Semi and Euro92 group. Four in a row Once again these are all "last eight or better" achievements which would beat that of either the 66-70 teams or the 2002-06 teams in terms of this "consistency" metric you mention. What does that mean for your theory?

I'll give you 82, but the only reason their elimination in the group stage in 80, 88 and 92 could be considered the equivalent of a QF final finish was because there were only 8 teams in the tournament each time. Not hard to finish top 8 with only 8 teams competing.

Mr.Nice Guy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

yeah, I,m sure they can't wait to have the Russian and Croatian fans there:rolleyes:. Maybe try looking past your own prejudice in future.

What prejudice? Prejudice is defined as an "unreasoning opinion or like or dislike of something".

The English fans have a history of violence at the major tournaments and their fans have consistently booed the anthems of opposing teams (including tonight).

Get your facts right before you mouth off.

Nunu

irish1 wrote: »

I know its impossible to know and its not really relevant but I think if Jamie Carragher hadn't retired and was playing England may not be loosing. Lescott isn't up it imo

...the most 'curve ball' post of the night


Next manager: No way it will be Mourinho. He has explicitly stated on more than one occasion that he would never manage any international team other than Portugal.

They have learned a harsh lesson, they will go for Scolari and O'Neill again and throw millions at either of them. If O'Neill is told the job is his he will take it.

Erin Go Brath

Nunu wrote: »

...the most 'curve ball' post of the night


Next manager: No way it will be Mourinho. He has explicitly stated on more than one occasion that he would never manage any international team other than Portugal.

They have learned a harsh lesson, they will go for Scolari and O'Neill again and throw millions at either of them. If O'Neill is told the job is his he will take it.

Ireland and England both picked duds to manage them, and both deserved to fail because of this. Would O'Neill be interested in the Irish job i wonder? If he took the English job, I don't think he'd ever be able to show his face in Derry again.

Mr Alan

With William Hill...

Mourinho 5-1
O'Neill 11-2

according to SSN

Pigman II

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Not hard to finish top 8 with only 8 teams competing.

Not hard to finish second in a final either. Point is you still have to get there. As such "top eight" is still earnt in each and every case I have mentioned.

Thrill

It's not just an Irish thing to be overjoyed to see the English side knocked out of the competition. Looking at the sun's discussion page I've found lots of other nationalities posting their delight, using the same reasons that a lot of Irish people use.....

http://www.thesun.co.uk/discussions/forums/show/Football_General-202.page

mchurl

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

their fans have consistently booed the anthems of opposing teams (including tonight).

I noticed this as well and yet you still had John Motson commenting that The england fans were very respectful to the anthem, and even commented on how the Macedonians had booed the Croat anthem and thus the Croats must be happy with the English repsect of it.

Pepe LeFrits

And getting there was easier too, with 4 teams in their group most of the time.

England have more quality players available now than probably at any time since the 66 generation, yet they blame their problems on foreign imports when they fail to qualify for a major tournament after appointing Steve McClaren as their manager. Amazing.

shane86

I would be sick if O`Neill took the job over our vacancy. Id sooner he refuse both than go to England.

Mr Alan- bookies manipulate rumours. They know full well Jose wont take the job. Tats why they put odds on it that will entice people to spend a hiuge amt thinking he will.

As my oul fella always says, the only men who became rich from gambling were Paddy Power and William Hill.

Mr Alan

True enough, just typing while watching SSN, just thought it worth noting!:)

Bilic interview was great after the game,

"do not be stupid, you did not lose this game because of McClarens tactics,you lost because we are the better team" legend

Bilic for ireland!

Erin Go Brath

mchurl wrote: »

I noticed this as well and yet you still had John Motson commenting that The england fans were very respectful to the anthem, and even commented on how the Macedonians had booed the Croat anthem and thus the Croats must be happy with the English repsect of it.

Typical propoganda we'd expect from English media tbh. Portraying English fans as the respectful, best fans in the world ****e is par for the course. Also note the loud boos from the fans when England went in 2 down at half time. Wonderful, respectful fans they aint!

Thrill

Why do they keep insisting on having an Englishman for the managers job when it never pays off. Maybe they should bite the bullet like some other nations have and try for a foreign manager.

Pigman II

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

And getting there was easier too, with 4 teams in their group most of the time.

And that makes a difference because? Did the other teams back then have to play 12 games where as England only had to play 6? It was the same for everyone.

England have more quality players available now than probably at any time since the 66 generation

No they don't. Don't get me wrong I'm sure Sky Sports will tell you they do but I see nothing there to suggest England have many top class players.

Frankly it saddens me to know that the Prem is where out best players play. I think if we consistently had 15-20 guys playing throughout Italy/Spain/Germany now etc then we'd probably be going to Euro2008 now. As it is we're doomed to only ever being slightly worse than England. If they can't even qualify then we don't have a chance cos we come from the same place as them, we play football like them (only at a lower level and with fewer players to pick from).

LegacyUser

Thrill wrote: »

Why do they keep insisting on having an Englishman for the managers job when it never pays off. Maybe they should bite the bullet like some other nations have and try for a foreign manager.

dumbest post ive ever read

Brethitmanhart

Thrill, em Sven Goran Eriksson was not English and the main reason an English manager was brought in last time was that they felt the foreign manager route didn't work!

Nunu

Thrill wrote: »

Why do they keep insisting on having an Englishman for the managers job when it never pays off. Maybe they should bite the bullet like some other nations have and try for a foreign manager.

They have bitten the bullet before. Do you not remeber Sven managing them for 4 years?


What odds now on Beckham getting his 100th cap in a multi million dollar razzamatazz friendly against the US in Los Angeles. It will happen next June when the cream of the european crop are pitting their wits against each other at Euro 08:D

Thrill

Nunu wrote: »

They have bitten the bullet before. Do you not remeber Sven managing them for 4 years?

Feeling totally embarassed right now. I dont know how the f**k I forgot him.

Kevster

I love the way Sky News moan about the inevitable backlash to all of this; whilst they are the ones who are donating so much airtime to it. Sky News always do stuff like this, and blame the newspapers instead of themselves.

Anyway, I hear people talking about Mourinho, Steve Coppel, Martin O'Neill, and Wenger raking the job... ...Are they serious?! These guys are far too intelligent to take such a job.

An Citeog

England simply didn't deserve anything out of that game and as such didn't deserve to qualify. The only player I saw showing a bit of heart and trying to get the team going and up the tempo was Beckham. Incidentally, I watched the match with a Swiss guy who was nearly in tears afterwards () and an Argentinian girl who laughed he ass off from the moment Carson let the first goal in!

For anyone that's interested, this documentary shows some of the English "fans" in Germany and what they were like: Hooligans The Untold Story.

Eirebear

Once again though Beckham proved just how valuable he actually is to England....that was a ****ing beautiful cross for the second goal. He tracked back and fought hard, when everyone around him were beggining to lose their heads.

Its probably a good thing for him that they didnt qualify...at least they cant make him a scapegoat.

gosplan

Jonny Arson wrote: »

obviously not fantastic enough if they're failing to failing to qualify for a major tournaments when they have the one of the best domestic leagues in the world at their disposal

kdjacl made a point about Man U and them concentrating on producing English players but this isn't the case with some other clubs. there is a culture with many english teams about finding the cheapest and most talented foreign talents which is you can't fault them for doing that but it is counterproductive for the overall health of national team and future talents. you can't deny that teams fielding 8/9 foreign players out 11 is only preventing homegrown players from getting the opportunity to prove themselves at the highest level

I'm sorry but this is rubbish.

The premise of blaming foreign imports for this is that the England squad simply isn't good enough to qualify. That's nonsense. The players are good enough, they've just no fight and a bad coach.

The Eircom league doesn't contain many foreigners, how come we didn't qualify?

England had a great coach, Sven. They very very rarely lost matches, were really hard to beat and generally went out of tournaments at quarter final stages on very close calls. They blamed him for not winning anything(despite this really being England's level), sacked him, and hired a far inferior manager.

They now blame foreigners in the league, what next?

shane86

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Typical propoganda we'd expect from English media tbh. Portraying English fans as the respectful, best fans in the world ****e is par for the course. Also note the loud boos from the fans when England went in 2 down at half time. Wonderful, respectful fans they aint!

In fairness, home fans usually boo a home team in dire straits. The lads in Croker were`nt booing the Cypriots, they were booing the Irish team and management.

God i had to admire the optimism of the England commentary after the 2nd goal "If Andorra hoild it to 0-0 this doesnt matter" or something like it. Fair enough a Hiddink side beating Corduff FC of Iberia by a single goal is awful, but honestly, its even worse blind hope than after the Prague result, me telling my mates "Germany will beat the Czechs, the Slovaks might have it in them for a grudge match result, and the Cypriots are on the up!"

Id been drinking for two days straight, and the Irish songs were kicking off in Rockys of Prague, and we were surrounded by yank birds, aint no time to dwell on the negatives

estebancambias

Lads how good was Modric!!!!!!

Nunu

estebancambias wrote: »

Lads how good was Modric!!!!!!

As I said in a previous post, absolutely sublime!!

Now that ladies and gentleman is what a world class player looks like not the hyped up pretenders in England jerseys.

Mr Alan

a lot of English players are world class, Gerrard, Terry, Cole, Beckham, Rooney, Owen.

Sky definately hype the **** out of the team, BUT if they got their **** together, their starting 11 could compete with the best in the world.

Its the getting the **** together that seems to be the problem for em.

Thrill

An Citeog wrote: »

For anyone that's interested, this documentary shows some of the English "fans" in Germany and what they were like: Hooligans The Untold Story.

OT
Just finished watching that. Good documentary. At least that lot wont get to disrupt the finals.

estebancambias

Well Holland and Poland are there, and they are rife with much worse than English hooligans.

Mr.Nice Guy

Anyone read the post-match comments from Slaven Bilic. Love this guy:

"I read in your papers that no Croatian player would start on your team.''

"I mean, seriously, wake up.''

"You didn't lose the game because of the tactics. We are simply a better team. I admire your team and your players but my team is a much better team."

Legend. Tells it like it is.

_blank_

Mr Alan wrote: »

I like Beckham. I hope he gets a fair few more caps for em. He deserves it. Gets way too much stick.

:eek::eek:

Can't believe you said that.

Mr Alan wrote: »

Crouch was excellent tonight i thought.

I agree.

McLaren got it wrong from the start.

Barry/Lampard was working, he hadn't the balls to drop a fit Lamps.

Aiming balls at the top of Crouch's head? Bizarre.

There was one time in the first half when Crouch got a ball to his chest, back to goal. He took it down, took a touch, layed it off and England got a chance at goal.

SWP had a crap half, but should never have started. Bex showed his worth with the excellent vision and cross for Crouch's very well taken goal.

The penalty. Soft decision, but there was a definite shirt pull.

Carson. Jaysis, I've never seen a more inept performance since James in his Liverpool heyday. Should have been James tbh.

Lescott isn't international standard.

The blame lies with McLaren.

They need to get in a manager with balls, who won't let the media influence his decision making. A man who doesn't have a Sky Subscription, a man who doesn't read tabloids. A man with a backbone.

I think England have the players to certainly qualify for a tournament.

I would have been delighted for Crouch if his goal had have meant qualification. Crouch is a good player, and seems to be a nice down to earth lad to boot.

Mr Alan

DesF wrote: »

:eek::eek:

Can't believe you said that.

I only tell the truth

thats twice in the last week you've agreed with me des, maybe you should go see a doc?

Dave!

Everyone steer clear of the tabloids tomorrow..... the horror..........!!!

Great goal from Crouchy, great ball from Beckham. Good interview with him after the game.

McLaren is outski.

Wish I coulda seen Wright, et al, after the match, but alas I was in work

Shame the Nordies are out, but oh well! Makes me feel better about Ireland not qualifying!

Mr Alan

wright wasnt actually as bad as i thought he'd be, he said that SWP should not have been playing ahead of Beckham and that England did not deserve to go through.

maybe there is hope for him yet

Jazzy

an unpractised back 4 cost them the 2nd and 3rd goal.
Richards, Cambell, Lescott and Bridge

Richards is the best there and set becks free for englands 2nd. still didnt play with much spirit and was too easy to beat on the night.
Cambell was terrible
Lescott was better then cambell, but still ****e
Bridge didnt read the full backs manual and was totally at fault for Eduardo getting onside

as a collective unit they couldnt read each other at all and were extremely off in coordinating the back line. those defenders have rarely if ever played with each other and hadnt even played with the keeper before. when an in form team like croatia plays against that sorta of rabble, they will punish them.
James should have started instead of carson (experience and coordination)
i think the defence should have started as Richards, Brown, Cambell and P Neville.
Neville, cambell and brown have all played and worked together before and could probably read each others game a lot better then the 4 that started. Richards would have been good enough to slot in and with James organising them they would have only let in 1 if none at all (James deffo would have saved the first imo)
The space the croatian striker had for the 3rd was stupid and no1 closed him down as they were probably too busy coordinating themselves... those 1 or 2 seconds cost them europe. and of course the nerves got to them, hence being slow on the positioning.

As a manager McClaren submitted to the press's choice of players (maybe not becks) and its cost england qualification and steve his job.
He should have stuck with 4-4-2 with Gerrard and Barry as partners, left tons of fun on the bench (lamps) and you can still opt for either SWP or becks (in hindsight becks of course, but i would have started with SWP b4 the match).
Defoe and Jan Koller :ahem: i mean crouch up top. fast man who can finish and big target man who can hold up the play and flick on balls.

instead we saw the team the media picked and they are out... and rightfully so. while i still think they have the potential to be in the top 8 in the world and could very well be there now on paper (as with Spain), they lack someone with balls at the helm. someone who knows how to win even (wats McClarens record? oh yeah, blank) and most importantly, some1 who has learnt lessons in football the hard way. Steve learned that lesson tonite and its cost him his job. We'll be seeing ya in the coca cola championship next season so, QPR ran into some cash recently... give them a call sure, god knows its the first thing on robbie earnshaws mind when he gets relegated.

Mr Alan

Mc Claren to Birmingham, wait and see!

PHB

I thought England were very good going forward tonight. Defensive injuries cost them. Why the **** he played barry ahead of Hargreaves I don't know

TheBigLebowski

How long has it been since not one of the 5 countries in the 'British Isles' qualified for a major tournament, if ever?

Xavi6

I can't believe they bottled it. How many bites of the cherry do you want? Hilarious.

Nunu

I don't remember ever seeing footage of Scotland at World Cup 74 in Germany, so I'm guessing that was the last time.

If they were then never since all of us have entered for qualification.

Edit: Actually was only thinking of World Cups...In Euro 84 none of us qualified - there were only 8 teams in the tournament back then.

event

well ian wright cant say anything anyway

back when they were looking for a manager, he said he would prefer years in the wilderness with an england manager than getting to tournaments with a foreign one.

you got your wish Ian

jameshayes

Do we have any news from the press conference this morning?

kryogen

i honestly think that the team selection was fine, they just dont have the heart to win on the big big occasion when the pressure is on...... with what the manager had to work with he picked the best team he could, ?Hargreaves isnt fit enough to play, Barry has done nothing to drop himself either, Lampard doesnt do it for England, if anything maybe he should have been left on the bench and maybe Bent should have started up front alongside the bean pole, its the only change id have made to the starting XI if i was in the hotseat...... But in fairness the team that was picked, supposedly two of the best central midfielders in the world, cant break down and beat a supposedly inferior Croat team, actually, never mind that, they cant even get a draw when thats all they need??? Blaming the manager is a cop out here IMO...... The defence cost them qualification because the were not used to each other. Campbell should have stepped up and made sure the others knew what to do but he didnt, i think its time for him to hang up his boots internationally now. great defender in his day but he wont be around for the next world cup so he may aswel go.