Running a marathon with no specific trainng

copacetic

I think you are being very unfair and closed minded there amadeus. 'Running 400/800m reps is pointless'???. Couldn't disagree more with that statement and everyone I know who runs at any kind of decent level does that kind of training.

The various studies and reports out there on 3 days a week marathon training give stunning results (15 of 21 ran PBs). All based on one speed work session (yes reps of 400m-1600m), one tempo run, and one long run a week.

Runners World ran that story in Feb 2006 and with the results seen since are now running it more and more and it may be their recommended routine sooner rather than later.

Perhaps you guys have good intentions but such closed mindedness is not on imo.


To the OP, get a least 3 sessions of running a week in, don't miss the long run and search for FIRST marathon programme online and you will likely be fine.

Racing Flat

The OP in his first post suggested only doing 6 or so long runs. Most running plans advocate a speed session, a tempo run and a long run, ie 3 quality runs a week and then another 2 or 3 easy runs. Most club runners in the country would train like this I would imagine, with individual differences based on the event they are training for. In terms of doing 400s/800s for a speed session, I would imagine if training for shorter distances you would do less of then faster with a longer recovery to work the speed, but if training for longer distances such as the marathon, doing more reps, at a slower pace with less recovery would be better for building the speed endurance. I don't know if it matters too much the distance of the repeat as long as you stick to these principles, but I would be more inclined to do the longer ones when marathon training.

For example in spring/early summer when training for 1500 we would tend to do 6 400s in 66s (fast for our level!) with a 2-3min recovery, but if training for a 5-10k we might do 12 400s in 75s with a 90sec recovery, but if training for marathon I'd be more inclined to do 6 x 1 mile in 6 mins or 8 x 800 in 2.45.

By the way Copacetic in the Runners World - did they do only the three quality runs and no easy runs? Would be interested in reading this, maybe I should cut out my easy runs...but I love them! what else would I do with my time;). i'm not sure if paople were being close minded, but the OP did say he was going to do the 400s at near max, I would have thought he would have been better off doing more reps, slower than near max (so he can actually do more) based on what I've read and my own experience, but not an expert, but don't think this is close minded just my view

copacetic

yep racing, 3 quality sessions, no junk would be the way they look at it. You are expected to crrosstrain hard on two other days though. it was actually a report on the furman institutes program and tests. It was feb 06 edition but they repeat it a fair bit. they have had various marathon guinea pigs try it it all the running glossies since and it seems very sucessful at preventing injury and giving good results.

I was probably harsh, as you say there is no way you can run 400 reps at 'near max' it is an oxymoron. either you get slower very quickly or it wasn't near max to beign with. the FIRST program has you doing 12x400m in week 9 for instance which obviously has to be a long way off max to be possible. similarly yasso 800s type sessions are in there.

Check out the FIRST program here:
http://www.furman.edu/first/fmtp.htm

Racing Flat

Cheers Copacetic, will have a look at that. Can you do easy runs instead of the hard cross training if you don't get injured? Can't be bothered with gym, too dangerous to cycle where I live, not good enough at swimming...and love running! And does it work with good runners bettering their times, or was it just for first timers? Hopefully it's all in article - will download now. Thanks again.

copacetic

the hard cross training seems important, thats why it is suited to OP imo. The idea is that you increase the quality of the 3 running days whichrest days allow you to. the long runs are quicker than std programs for instance.the link is just the program, the article may still be on the runners world site if you have a subscription.

it seemed to work especially well for experienced runners. the 13 veterans among the 21 runners in the original study improved their times by 20 mins. 15/21 set PBs, 4/6 of the rest ran faster than their last marathon.


edit:
article is on site:
http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/news/article.asp?sp=&v=3&uan=2493

with a 800 post thread.

--amadeus--

The Furman programme is an excellent one, in fact I linked to it on page one of this thread! Everything I have seen on it reccomends 3 * running days and crosstraining on the others and it's especially good for injury prone runners, IIRC.

Likewise I agree 100% that speedwork is important - even vital. My program for Rotterdam includes 1 speed session a week once I get past the initial regain fitness pain. For example I have a V02 max session which is 6*600m @ 5k pace, with 90sec recoveries, or lactate threashold runs of 12 miles with 7 @ 1/2 mara pace. I have nothing against track work or 400/800 m reps!

Couple of points though. The point of fast, short reps is usually to boost V02 max. This allows the trained athlete to workl harder for longer as they will be at a lower % of max for a given pace. Anything up to 10k and V02 max is (AFAIK) one of the key indicators and predictors of ability. However as the distance increases V02 max importance decreases. Therefore for a marathon runner to only do V02 max work (ie fast short reps) to the exclusion of all other speed work is not the most productive use of training time.

Likewise the advice I was throwing around was not generic but specific. The OP is only planning one run per week. One week a long run, next a 10k the third a set of 400/800m reps. I reckon that's lunacy personally but if he will only do 1 running session a week then I don't think that any coach would reccomend that one of those was reps, do you?

copacetic

apologies if that is the case amadeus, but I read above about his long runs and also about the reps so assumed it was a least 2 runs a week he was planning. as you say 1 run a week would not be advisable. but if someone who was very fit got in 3 or 4 20 mile long runs before a marathon they would likely get through it a lot better than 90% of the other people running on the day imo. However that would be based on a long run at least every week.

HardyEustace

eclectichoney wrote: »

Oh my. I started running in September (from nothing, though I had been going to the gym a bit and doing other forms of cardio /weights) and am now up to about 10k on my long run (great I know ) and could never imagine running a marathon in the short term from where I am now. Just how did you manage it? I'm in total awe. There is no way I could run for 26 miles tomorrow no matter how hard I tried.

I am half thinking of doing the Dublin marathon in 08 but for the moment I am just enjoying my running, and if it takes another year or so, so be it. But there is some serious inspiration in this thread for the likes of me!

Started running April 06 on the "walk for 10 minutes/run for 5 minutes/walk for 10 minutes", three times a week. Did the women's mini-marathon that June. Decided I loved running, decided to do the Dublin marathon, bought this book non-runner's marathon trainer

completed the training program and finished the marathon in 4 and half hours. Was a smoker at the time as well. You've loads of time for a marathon. Would recommend the book though. The most you do before the marathon is 2 x 18 miles in the last few weeks before the marathon. Great mental preparation tools which are key.

--amadeus--

I agree - CV fitness (which the OP clearly has) is really important and if you have that and can fit in a few decent long runs then you'll be grand on the day. As with all training though I think it's consistancy is the key - 4 or 5 long runs in 4 or 5 weeks will do more good than 5 or 6 over 5 or 6 months I believe.

Hardy - spot on, anyone can complete a marathon no matter what their starting point as long as they take it seriously and approach things realisitically.

ditpoker

ehmm... anyone with any non-horror stories about people running marathons and NOT being plagued with injury after?

hunnymonster

I ran 8 marathons within 12 months of taking my virgin running steps. I had a little bit of hip aductor problems just before the Connemara ultramarathon last year but I still came 3rd in that race but that was the only real running injury I've had since starting in 2004. You do have to listen to your body and not overdo things.

Having said that about not getting injured, I get an extraordinary number of chest infections and this has caused me problems in several races. I'm just getting over the latest one and my next race (80 mile ultra) is in 4 weeks. An osteopath friend reckons it's because I don't breathe properly. I've a history of collapsed lungs so there might be something in that.

--amadeus--

This thread is quite negative because the OP was planning on running a marathon without training. All teh horror stories come out to try to scare some sense in! The reality is that the vast bulk of people who run a marathon train for it and get through with little or no difficulty.

Speaking personally I went from hardly ever running (a mile or two every three or four weeks) to a marathon in less than three months. While a lot saner than HM I did complete a further two within a year of starting running, and have now notched up 6 since Dublin '05 with my times dropping by an hour and PBs in every race. I've had a lot of aches and pains but - touch wood - I've never been "properly" injured.

As long as you respect the marathon distance and prepare properly you'll be fine. London is a huge race with great support and you'll have a ball and within a couple of weeks of finishing you'll be planning your next, wait and see!!

Racing Flat

Trained for a year before my first marathon. Went to work next day, a little stiff but no problems going up stairs or anything, same with second marathon. I usually take 2 weeks off running after a marathon but a lot of my friends are jogging within days, racing in a week. That's due to adequate preparation/respecting the marathon distance. The horror stories are usually in relation to those who haven't trained, aswell as the stories of not being able to get up the stairs etc.

who007

This thread is fascinatingh - so how's the training going briannon???
Just can't get my head around someone doing a 10n minute workout in a day - what length of training are the other days - I mean on a regular basis?

brianon

who007 wrote: »

This thread is fascinatingh - so how's the training going briannon???
Just can't get my head around someone doing a 10n minute workout in a day - what length of training are the other days - I mean on a regular basis?

Thanks for asking

Well all CF workouts would include a warmup. Usually takes 15 minutes.
What I did the last two nights was the following....

As many rounds as possible of the following in 20 minutes...(5 Pull-Ups, 10 Push-Ups, 15 Squats). Took 20 minutes obviously + warm-up.

Last night was 3 rounds of the following...(Row 800m, 50 back Extensions, 50 Sit-Ups *not crunches*). Took 34minutes + warm-up.

As for the training...well I hit a little snag. After I injured my foot I missed one long run & I only plan to do a few.
Eventually felt ok to try it out on the 27th Dec and ran 3.4miles. Went fine. Ran 11.5m on 29th Dec. Ran 11.5 again on the 5th Jan also.

Did NO other training for 2 weeks there over Christmas. Not due to injury but due to ... laziness, crisps and chocolate

Back no though with 12 full weeks to go. Plan is a little all over the shop right now but I will be running the marathon. Latest crossfit journal outlines the last 10 week training plan for a 30mile trek for a specific individual mixing crossfit with a fair amount of short distance running and some longer distances. I am trying to modify it to my needs/abilities. Will post once I have it ready to follow.

who007

well, I've done 4 maras and my best time is 4hr 12... if you are doing 11 milers now with 3 months to go and are consistantly training with the shorter runs I don't see how you'll have a problem... for my 4'12 I was only doing one long run a week and club training 2 nights a week with swimming every day... built up from my regular 8 miler to 12 to 16 to 19.5 over time of 3 months and felt absolutely fine - best I felt compared to the other 3... stick to it and good luck.. and sorry - I have forgotten now - it's the Connemara mara you are doing? I just entered tonight so have to start training myself!

who007

Dude, you're not telling us anything??!

brianon

who007 wrote: »

Dude, you're not telling us anything??!

ok ok...

last two weeks have been like this...
wk1:
indoor soccer
CF
CF
3.4m
cf
rest
15.5m

wk2:
indoor soccer
CF
CF
CF
4m
rest
10k

A bit more running than I planned but not so bad. I have a 10 week plan almost set in stone and will post once it is...

aburke

Hi brianon
I'm involved with the Connemarathon, and I wish you the best of luck.

You'll need it. The hell of the west is a lonely place if you're having a bad day.
You've run 21 miles [more than you'll ever have run if I read your posts correctly], cross the bridge at Maam, and all you see are 2 miles of uphill.

This isn't London or even Dublin, there won't be crowds cheering you on, apart from the sheep. Fellow competitors are great, because of the lack of crowds maybe, but they will be concentrating on getting up that hill too.

The first time I ran it, it nearly broke me, and that was just in the half!

Enjoy yourself!
I'll watch out for you at the finish line

Later
Alan

Racing Flat

15.5 miles not bad at all. Despite you're limited running, if you need anything it's the long runs IMO, so you're getting there.

--amadeus--

two runs a week is much better - add a third and you'll sail thru the race!

brianon

Ok guys. Thanks again for all th input. I finally have a 10 week plan to beat all plans

Inolves quite a bit of running actually although not too much of the long variety

Starts this Monday. Here is week 1.

MON
1. 4x1k at less than best 5k pace with 2 minutes rest between each 1k.
Evening
2. CrossFit: Heavy Session - (Deadlift, Squat, Clean, Snatch, Bench) < 10 Reps 3-5 sets

TUE
1. Tabata Run. 8 Sets (20 sec/ 10 sec). 12% Grade.
Evening
2. CrossFit: Metcon

WED
1. 8k Run. At best half marathon pace or faster.

THU
1. CrossFit: "Angie" @ 60%
Evening
2. Tabata Run. 8 Sets (20 sec/ 10 sec). 12% Grade.

FRI
1. CrossFit: Oly Day.
Clean
Snatch
Jerk
Box Jump
Burpees
Man Makers (16kg per DB)
*Medium Weights*

SAT
1. 15 Mile Run.

SUN
1. 5x1k @ 10 seconds below 5k pace. With 2 minute recovery.
Evening
2. Strength recovery. Basic innervation exercise based around hips.Do 3 sets to burn.

The Long runs are 1 per week like so 15/13/0/1 hour jog/20/13/15/0/1 hour jog.
Most Wednesdays are 5k/8k/10m runs.
Lots of 1k hill repeats & Tabata running.
Lots of CrossFit.
5 runs greater than 10miles.
11 runs bewteen 5k & 10miles.

It could be too much as most days are two sessions and I have a 14month old daughter who doesn't like to follow any schedule
Most weeks are quite similar but there are some 400m repeats also.

Total rest days excluding last week ... 4. hmmmm. might need to add a couple more.

Will update if I alter it or find its not working.

Any thoughts ?

Racing Flat

brianon wrote: »

MON
1. 4x1k at less than best 5k pace with 2 minutes rest between each 1k.
Evening
TUE
1. Tabata Run. 8 Sets (20 sec/ 10 sec). 12% Grade.
WED
1. 8k Run. At best half marathon pace or faster.
THU
2. Tabata Run. 8 Sets (20 sec/ 10 sec). 12% Grade.
SAT
1. 15 Mile Run.
SUN
1. 5x1k @ 10 seconds below 5k pace. With 2 minute recovery.

The Long runs are 1 per week like so 15/13/0/1 hour jog/20/13/15/0/1 hour jog.
Most Wednesdays are 5k/8k/10m runs.
Lots of 1k hill repeats & Tabata running.
Lots of CrossFit.
5 runs greater than 10miles.
11 runs bewteen 5k & 10miles.

Any thoughts ?

Well, firstly I think you need to change the name of the thread! Looks like you'll be running 6 days a week (although I don't know what Tabata running is so maybe I've got this wrong - what is it? Will make it easier to offer advice if we know this).

All in all there's a fair bit of running so that's good for marathon training. One or two suggestions...

I wouldn't do the two interval sessions on successive days and particularly not after the long run. As the long run is the most important one for you, pencil that in first. You have it on Saturday. So you wouldn't want to do the intervals Friday or Sunday, so how about Monday or Tuesday for one and Thursday for the other? Also, not sure if two of these interval sessions are required, might just wear you down as you are also doing a tempo run on the Wednesday.

You don't wnat to increase the quantity or quality too much too quickly, and it seems like you might go from very little running to a lot of high intensity running (increasing both substantially), so this might lead to increased injury/getting run down risk.

My recommendation would be the long run saturday, tuesday you could do the interval like you have above and thursday do the tempo run, if you are going to run the other days, just go easy and take one day off, friday sounds good.

If you really really want to do 2 interval sessions, why not vary them - ie one of 4-5 x 1k but have the other as 3 x 1mile (slower and with more recovery) or 2 x 3k? Just to give it a bit of variety and also to get the body used to different speeds/stresses.

Don't underestimate the importance of rest/recovery and enjoy.

brianon

Racing Flat wrote: »

Well, firstly I think you need to change the name of the thread! Looks like you'll be running 6 days a week (although I don't know what Tabata running is so maybe I've got this wrong - what is it? Will make it easier to offer advice if we know this).

All in all there's a fair bit of running so that's good for marathon training. One or two suggestions...

I wouldn't do the two interval sessions on successive days and particularly not after the long run. As the long run is the most important one for you, pencil that in first. You have it on Saturday. So you wouldn't want to do the intervals Friday or Sunday, so how about Monday or Tuesday for one and Thursday for the other? Also, not sure if two of these interval sessions are required, might just wear you down as you are also doing a tempo run on the Wednesday.

You don't wnat to increase the quantity or quality too much too quickly, and it seems like you might go from very little running to a lot of high intensity running (increasing both substantially), so this might lead to increased injury/getting run down risk.

My recommendation would be the long run saturday, tuesday you could do the interval like you have above and thursday do the tempo run, if you are going to run the other days, just go easy and take one day off, friday sounds good.

If you really really want to do 2 interval sessions, why not vary them - ie one of 4-5 x 1k but have the other as 3 x 1mile (slower and with more recovery) or 2 x 3k? Just to give it a bit of variety and also to get the body used to different speeds/stresses.

Don't underestimate the importance of rest/recovery and enjoy.

Tabata is where you run (v.hard) for 20 seconds and rest for 10 seconds. Repeat 8 times.

Thread title change ... ? Not wuite but I understand where you are coming from.

Week 1 has quite high mileage in it I guess yes.
15 miler + 5m for a start = 20 miles.

But the 15miler is the 2nd longest run and there are only 6 runs greater than 10miles.

The 4x1k/5x1k with 2 minute rests between Ks is not a typical long mileage training I would imagine.
In the 10 weeks there are only 18 typical runs. Less than 2 per week.

The other running is 400m/800m/1k repeats with rest periods between.

*edit* Although this 400m->1k repeats does seem a big part of The Furman programme (mentioned in threads above).

http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/news/a...=&v=3&uan=2493

Racing Flat

brianon wrote: »

The 4x1k/5x1k with 2 minute rests between Ks is not a typical long mileage training I would imagine.
In the 10 weeks there are only 18 typical runs. Less than 2 per week.

When I do 5 x 1k it's usually an 8 or 9 mile run. 2 to 2.5 miles warm up 2 to 2.5 miles warm down, the 5 x 1k total 3 miles and slow jogging in the 2 min rests might make up another mile. Do this twice, add your long run and the tempo run (which I would do with a warm up and warm down aswell) and you'd be up at 30-40miles a week before you count the tabata runs. That's what i understood from the plan, but maybe you don't do the intervals like this and so you're right, you don't need to change the title:D. But I can't see how you make out there's less than 2 runs a week if you are doing 2 interval sessions a tempo run and a long run on the week listed.

brianon

Racing Flat wrote: »

When I do 5 x 1k it's usually an 8 or 9 mile run. 2 to 2.5 miles warm up 2 to 2.5 miles warm down, the 5 x 1k total 3 miles and slow jogging in the 2 min rests might make up another mile. Do this twice, add your long run and the tempo run (which I would do with a warm up and warm down aswell) and you'd be up at 30-40miles a week before you count the tabata runs. That's what i understood from the plan, but maybe you don't do the intervals like this and so you're right, you don't need to change the title:D. But I can't see how you make out there's less than 2 runs a week if you are doing 2 interval sessions a tempo run and a long run on the week listed.

Well when I trained a few years back it was basically (as I remember now) about 4/5 runs a week and there were NO 1k (or less) repeats.

So it would have been 5/0/6/10/0/5/15 (=41m) Now they are runs. 5 mile is a run to me. 1k x 4/5 with 2 minutes rest between is more speed work.

I think the MOST mileage I will do in any week now is ... 4k/1m/8k/1m/0/15m/5k for a total of about 28m and that is THE longest week. 8m of which is speed/tempo work.

There is mileage for sure in this plan but its not near the typical run run run plan that I followed back in '03 and that many peeps still follow.

my 1k repeats will be warm up -> 1k -> rest 2min -> 1k etc...

I think I've deviated from my initial plan. My hope was to run a marathon with as little running as possible.

I originally catered for 5/6 long runs, then I added 6/7 tempo runs.
Now I'm adding interval work. About 8k interval work a week.

So altered from original plan yes...but not by too much.

This plan has mileage but not relentless road mileage. Its varied and the running (including the interval work) is about 50% of the training.

I think its a nice trade off and hoefully should see me through.

brianon

Right. I've trawled through the 10 week plan and totted up the mileage

* I am excluding the few 400/200m repeats and the tabata runs which is just purely speed work and doesn't amount to much mileage anyway.
** All other runs are included except the actual marathon itself.

A total of 185miles in 69 days.
2.7(-) miles a day.

Looking at the last 10 weeks of the Furman plan for only 3 days of running a week.
* I am excluding the few 400/800m repeats but including the 1600m and 1200m repeats. Similar to my 1.2 mile hill repeats.

A total of 213 miles in 69 days.
3.1(-) miles a day.

So 28 miles less on my schedule. And thats in comparision to a low mileage plan !

And looking at the last 10 weeks of the ever popular Hal Higdon NOVICE plan.

A total of 283!! miles in 69 days.
4.1 miles a day.

So 98 miles less!!! on my schedule in comparision to a very populare and widely used plan.

So maybe I am sticking to my orig plan

RICHIE-RICH

brianon
I have been reading this thread since it started, and it appears you have changed from someone who wants to run a marathon with the absolute minimum running training (topping up our fitness with cross training etc); to pretty much doing a standard "get me round" training plan.
i am wondering if you have changed your attitude to the training required to complete the marathon.
From what I have experienced, you MUST put in the mileage on the road to prepare yourself for marathon day. If you skip on the long runs you will really suffer on the day. Personally I think that you should do at least one 20 miler in run up to the marathon.
Do not underestimate the importance of these long runs - you must do them and they must be long. otherwise you will suffer.
The experience of hitting the wall, and feeling that you have another 6 miles/another HOUR of running ahead of you is horrible.
I did the Hal Higdon NOVICE plan, and yes it did get me around, but I was seriously lacking in long mileage. If you are 98 miles less than that then i would be worried.

Best of luck though, and enjoy the experience.
There is nothing like it.

brianon

Thanks for the reply.

to pretty much doing a standard "get me round" training plan.

I don't think it is a standard plan at all. Its 98 miles less than what I would have thought was a standard plan and the difference increases if you include my last 6/10 weeks of training.

I think this plan will see me get a better time than I would with a plan like Higdons but I can't be sure and will never know

changed from someone who wants to run a marathon with the absolute minimum running training

I haven't changed my attitude at all. I think this is the right amount of running to get a good marathon time.

Its not my plan btw...Its based very tightly, on a recent plan for a hilly(5,490 feet of climbing) 50k(31.2 miles) from the Jan CrossFit journal titled..."Endurance Training: Decreased Training Time & Increased Work Capacity"

Racing Flat

brianon wrote: »

Maybe one long run each of 10/12.5/15/17.5/20/22.5 between now and March.

This was the original plan. With no other running, was how I (?mis)interpreted it.

That's 97.5 miles. Now you're up to 185 miles + an extra few miles from your 200/400m runs which you aren't including.

So I would say it's changed quite substantially! And for the better in my humble opinion. Although I'm a little disappointed that we won't find out the result of your initial plan, just the long runs and nothing else. Will have to wait for another punter to try it!

More improtant than making the plans though is doing the training - good luck and enjoy.

thirtyfoot

Whats the goal of the tabata session? Is it speed or speed endurance or something else?

Looks like a session I used to do for 1500 training when a young fellow but that was geared at working on the changes of pace that can occur in a middle distance race, not something needed in a marathon unless you are hoping to go down the Kenyan route! If you are running hard for 20 secs you are probably hitting 120-160m and then easy for 20-30m so you might only get a mile in total that seems very light. I'm training for only 400/800 races and I hit between 3k-5k total in my intervals in winter.

Interested to know what the logic behind the short distances and the fact you run so little in the session with so little recovery between efforts. The session seems to contradict itself

brianon

Racing Flat wrote: »

This was the original plan. With no other running, was how I (?mis)interpreted it.

That's 97.5 miles. Now you're up to 185 miles + an extra few miles from your 200/400m runs which you aren't including.

So I would say it's changed quite substantially! And for the better in my humble opinion. Although I'm a little disappointed that we won't find out the result of your initial plan, just the long runs and nothing else. Will have to wait for another punter to try it!

More improtant than making the plans though is doing the training - good luck and enjoy.

That was the orig plan for sure but CrossFit does involve running. Probably 10k every 2 weeks and quite a lot of 400m/800m.

So my ...
-185m + a few extra miles from 200/400m
is compared to ...
-97.5m + (approx) 30(+)m + a few extra miles from 200/400m

So over the next 10 weeks I plan to do an extra 56.5 miles over my orig plan.
Split over 10 weeks thats not a massive comprimise and my orig plan was just a draft of what I initially thought was a good amount.

I think I am still sticking to my dream :rolleyes: of not too much mileage and actually the mileage there us is quite varied. So my knees get protection and my sanity doesn't get destroyed from too much plain running.

Stupid_Private

I find it odd the way you've decided that your 1k intervals and 400m don't count. They were a hugely important part of my training for the marathon last year. I definately counted them.

You said that you think that your training is enough to get you around in a good time. What do you class as a good time? I ask this as a good time varies for everybody and really is based on their lifestyle and level of fitness.

brianon

Tingle wrote: »

Whats the goal of the tabata session? Is it speed or speed endurance or something else?

Looks like a session I used to do for 1500 training when a young fellow but that was geared at working on the changes of pace that can occur in a middle distance race, not something needed in a marathon unless you are hoping to go down the Kenyan route! If you are running hard for 20 secs you are probably hitting 120-160m and then easy for 20-30m so you might only get a mile in total that seems very light. I'm training for only 400/800 races and I hit between 3k-5k total in my intervals in winter.

Interested to know what the logic behind the short distances and the fact you run so little in the session with so little recovery between efforts. The session seems to contradict itself

Tabata running is v.similar to sprinting. You basically blast through 20 seconds, then walk for 10. Repeat 8 times.
Tabata is about maximum effort. About pushing yourself. A tabata run is...not nice. Of all the sessions, I fear them the most tbh and it'll probably be the closest I will get to passing out and that includes the marathon. Hope I haven't jinxed myself there

Short indeed but v.tough and a good shock for the system. The tabata sessions fall on 2 session days. i.e. tabata run am, CrossFit pm.

Tabata "Something Else" is a great CrossFit workout.
32 intervals of 20 sec. of work and 10 sec. rest.
8 intervals of pull-ups
8 intervals of push-ups
8 intervals of sit-ups - not crunches
8 intervals of squats

Sounds easy ? Is anything but.

--amadeus--

Sounds like they will be useful sessions for general fitness but I think you are right to exclude them (the "tabata" runs that is) from your mileage count because - from a marathon training perspective - they are pointless. Obviously they carry a benefit for you in a wider context but (as mentioned above) they belong in a 1500m training plan, not a first time marathon plan.

Other than that 180+ miles is still a considerable amount of running and the fact you will be running so often (at least twice a week) will be a great benefit compared to your initial plan of once a week and a long run every third (I think) week.

Like others I am interested in your target time as I think that this is now going to be your biggest hurdle. You have good CV fitness and the increased training should be enough to see you round. Doubly so since you will have the motivation of wanting to prove us all wrong! However if you are setting an overly ambitious target time then you may set off too fast and really suffer in the second half (esp as it is quite hilly). So what's the target and how did you decide on it?

brianon

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Sounds like they will be useful sessions for general fitness but I think you are right to exclude them (the "tabata" runs that is) from your mileage count because - from a marathon training perspective - they are pointless. Obviously they carry a benefit for you in a wider context but (as mentioned above) they belong in a 1500m training plan, not a first time marathon plan.

Worthless for distance training ? Far from so. Obviously I've not conducted experiments but have a read of some of these...
**http://www.crossfitnb.com/Endurance.htm
http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=3439&highlight=tabata+run
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0145.htm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Other than that 180+ miles is still a considerable amount of running and the fact you will be running so often (at least twice a week) will be a great benefit compared to your initial plan of once a week and a long run every third (I think) week.

Like others I am interested in your target time as I think that this is now going to be your biggest hurdle. You have good CV fitness and the increased training should be enough to see you round. Doubly so since you will have the motivation of wanting to prove us all wrong! However if you are setting an overly ambitious target time then you may set off too fast and really suffer in the second half (esp as it is quite hilly). So what's the target and how did you decide on it?

Well if this was the Dublin City marathon I'd be looking for 3:45 (or at least under 4hours) but I'm hearing scary things about Connemara so a sub 4hour would be great.

I am not trying to prove anyone wrong

thirtyfoot

brianon wrote: »

Tabata running is v.similar to sprinting. You basically blast through 20 seconds, then walk for 10. Repeat 8 times.
Tabata is about maximum effort. About pushing yourself. .

So its sole purpose is to be hard and difficult, doesn't make sense if you are training for a marathon. Hitting your head off a brick wall is hard and difficult but isn't doing any good to you.

I do a session close to the season where I run 200's with recoveries of first 45secs, then 30secs, then 15secs (so 200m45s200m30s20015s200m) but thats all about race simulation in training and replicating the feeling of drowning in lactic acid but still running at a good nick. Can't see how this session or the tabata above would benefit marathon running, maybe someone else can explain but its seems like its just a hard session for the sake of it. Still not convinced of its benefit.

brianon

Tingle wrote: »

So its sole purpose is to be hard and difficult, doesn't make sense if you are training for a marathon. Hitting your head off a brick wall is hard and difficult but isn't doing any good to you.

I do a session close to the season where I run 200's with recoveries of first 45secs, then 30secs, then 15secs (so 200m45s200m30s20015s200m) but thats all about race simulation in training and replicating the feeling of drowning in lactic acid but still running at a good nick. Can't see how this session or the tabata above would benefit marathon running, maybe someone else can explain but its seems like its just a hard session for the sake of it. Still not convinced of its benefit.

Read this if you get a chance.
http://www.crossfitnb.com/Endurance.htm

--amadeus--

No offense but thats selective science. If I went to any school in Inishowen (Donegal) I would find that between 25 and 50% of the children were called Doherty. I could therefore assume that up to half of all Irish children based on my sample are called Doherty.

And I'd be wrong!

A few people on a crossfit board saying that they run huge distances in fast times based only on short "tabata" runs does not turn decades of sports science over. Indeed most of them seem to have an endurance background and will already have made the physiological adaptations needed to handle endurance events.

I have read a number of books on marathon running and nowhere are short, sharp intervals recommended for marathon runners at any level. They simply do not help. Longer intervals for experienced runners yes. Short bursts for a first timer? No

Think about it - how will sprinting flat out for 20 seconds help you run at 60% effort for 4 hours?

Reasonable time target as well by the way, achievable - what is it based on? How long are your training runs taking and have you raced any shorter distances?

thirtyfoot

Read it and still at a loss but if it works for you or others then fair play.

The times etc qouted aren't really spectacular and I don't know of any good marathon runner (say sub 2:45) who would follow such a program so my thinking is that training like this will help you get to a certain level (probably because you are just been active and doing some sort of exercise, hard intense exercise) but to max your potential you need miles.

By the way, I'd be from the "less miles, more speed" camp but this is mental. Hope it works for you all the same.

brianon

--amadeus-- wrote: »

No offense but thats selective science. If I went to any school in Inishowen (Donegal) I would find that between 25 and 50% of the children were called Doherty. I could therefore assume that up to half of all Irish children based on my sample are called Doherty.

And I'd be wrong!

A few people on a crossfit board saying that they run huge distances in fast times based only on short "tabata" runs does not turn decades of sports science over. Indeed most of them seem to have an endurance background and will already have made the physiological adaptations needed to handle endurance events.

I have read a number of books on marathon running and nowhere are short, sharp intervals recommended for marathon runners at any level. They simply do not help. Longer intervals for experienced runners yes. Short bursts for a first timer? No

Think about it - how will sprinting flat out for 20 seconds help you run at 60% effort for 4 hours?

Alright I ain't gonna try to argue as my knowledge just isn't there I'm afraid.
So we can just add me to the short list of test subjects

Reasonable time target as well by the way, achievable - what is it based on? How long are your training runs taking and have you raced any shorter distances?

Based on the running I've been doing and have done in the past.
I've not raced any distance since '03. Ran Longford half 1:50 and Dublin half 1:45 but thats a long time ago.

More recently my training runs have been (that I've timed)...15.5 (2:15) & 10k (50:30).

Based on this I think I can look for a sub 4 but with the hills :eek:!!! ... who knows.

--amadeus--

Cross-post. I just read through that article you linked to. The marathon guy the use an example was running up to 30 miles per week. That's pretty much a normal training session and most runners will see similar time drops in their 2nd / 3rd marathons. He's actually pretty standard and by no means unique enough to claim that crossfit is turning endurance training upside down.

It would be interesting to know the authors background because a lot of what he claims as unusual (strength, recovery and energy) are standard in any training plan. I'd also like to know why he is so dismissive of periodisation (since this is a cornerstone of endurance training and the Kenyans won't train any other way, for example).

And this whole "metobolic pathway" thing is so much mumbo jumbo. The whole talk of teaching muscles to use oxygen effectively is based on old and now disputed science (the cardiovascular / anaerobic model). A newer theory that fits the facts more cleanly is the Integrated Neuromuscular Recruitment Model (look for it on Google books) so I'm not buying the science behind it either.

But each to thier own and it's an interesting experiment!

brianon

Appreciate all the input guys. Only 10 weeks to go now so we will see soon enough if this makes or breaks me

brianon

brianon wrote: »

Starts this Monday. Here is week 1.

MON
1. 4x1k at less than best 5k pace with 2 minutes rest between each 1k.
Evening
2. CrossFit: Heavy Session - (Deadlift, Squat, Clean, Snatch, Bench) < 10 Reps 3-5 sets

TUE
1. Tabata Run. 8 Sets (20 sec/ 10 sec). 12% Grade.
Evening
2. CrossFit: Metcon.

WED
1. 8k Run. At best half marathon pace or faster.

THU
1. CrossFit: "Angie" @ 60%.
Evening
2. Tabata Run. 8 Sets (20 sec/ 10 sec). 12% Grade.

FRI
1. CrossFit: Oly Day.
Clean
Snatch
Jerk
Box Jump
Burpees
Man Makers (16kg per DB)
*Medium Weights*

SAT
1. 15 Mile Run.

SUN
1. 5x1k @ 10 seconds below 5k pace. With 2 minute recovery.
Evening
2. Strength recovery. Basic innervation exercise based around hips.Do 3 sets to burn.

Ok...here is how week 1 went...near enough to plan.
MON
1. CrossFit: Heavy Session - (Deadlift, Squat, Press). 3 Sets (Reps10/8/3)
Evening
2. 3x1k at less than best 5k pace with 2 minutes rest between each 1k.

TUE
1. CrossFit: Metcon. Can't remember now exaclty what I did. Took 25 minutes + warm up.

WED
1. 8k Run. At best half marathon pace or faster.

THU
1. CrossFit: "Angie" @ 60%. 60 Pull Ups, 60 Push Ups, 60 Sit Ups, 60 Squats.

FRI1. CrossFit. Eh...again took about 25 + warm up. Was something like ...
5 x {Row 400m, 5 Pull Ups, 10 Weighted Box Jumps, 10 Push Ups, 2 ManMakers (11kg per DB)}.

SAT
1. 16.2 Mile Run. (6 laps of a 2.7m hilly course). Time: 2:13:02
*Felt ok. Was starting to get a little stiff but not too bad.

SUN
Rest

Had to scale back a bit due to not having the physical time. This week will be similar but have an 18miler planned on a very hilly course in Wicklow

brianon

Week 2 done and dusted. Good week. Again, not all to plan but close enough.

MON
p.m. Indoor Soccer

TUE
p.m. 2x(6x400) (1:30 RI)
2:30 RI between sets.
Pace range was : 1:33 to 1:36 per 400m

WED
a.m. Rowing (E=Easy, H=Hard) *Numbers are minutes.
1E, 1H, 1E, 2H, 1E, 3H, 1E, 4H,
1E, 3H, 1E, 2H, 1E, 1H, 1E.
5.5k in total rowed.

p.m. CrossFit: Metcon.
"Tabata Something Else"
PullUp/PushUp/SitUp/Squat

THU
a.m. Core work.

p.m. 8m Run.
2 miles easy + 3 miles @ short tempo pace + 1 mile easy
Easy miles were 9min miles. the 3 miles at short tempo total was 21:10.

FRI
Rest

SAT
a.m. 18 Mile Run.
Was a VERY hilly (some serious hills here) run in Wicklow. Great practise for Connemara. One v.tough hill @ 11mile mark was 1.3 miles long.
Was a slow run. Set a early slow pace as knew the run was hilly. 2:46 total.

SUN
p.m. Light Crossfit Session.
4 Rounds of …
2 MM (16kg DBs/No Thruster)
5 Push Up, 10 Calf Raise
10 Lunge (16kg DBs)
10 Burpee, 5 Dips
10 Squats (16Kg DBs)

The 18 miler gives me great hope that if I can stay injury free the marathon should be ok. The hills on that run were damn tough and I got through them.

--amadeus--

Well done - an 18 miler on hills at this stage is a good sign that you'll be able to cover the distance on the day, especially as it was hilly.

The only concern at this stage is pacing. Did you track your HR on the run? How did you feel - do you think you could have run further or faster?

brianon

HR? no.
Felt I could have gone further yeah.

Went out at a deliberate slower pace knowing it was so hilly. By the end I was getting a bit stiff but for sure I could have gone further.

Pretty happy now alright. 8 weeks more training left and now have some experience of what Connemara will be like.

Manged to keep a steady pace throughout. Most miles were pretty close in terms of timing.

--amadeus--

The fact that the miles were close on time is good. It would be interesting to know the extent of your "HR drift" - in other words how much harder were you working to maintain that pace towards the end of the run. It would also be good to know where your HR was at relative to the HR you'll be at during the race - in other words could you sustain a faster pace for that length of time.

Good going though!

thirtyfoot

--amadeus-- wrote: »

The fact that the miles were close on time is good. It would be interesting to know the extent of your "HR drift" - in other words how much harder were you working to maintain that pace towards the end of the run. It would also be good to know where your HR was at relative to the HR you'll be at during the race - in other words could you sustain a faster pace for that length of time.

Good going though!

Great going alright (maybe the bastardised Cross-Fit No Running But Actually There is Running Program works) but I wouldn't be too worried about "HR drift" and focus more on his comment that he could have gone 'further for sure', a much better indicator in my book and added to splits being very consistent. HRM are grand but a limited tool that too many people become too reliant on instead on listening to their body or even their mind. Are there studies done on "HR drift" as I'd be interested to see it, my father is a big believer of HRM as a coach. I know in multi-day, multi-event races (like the Eco-Challenge) that there is "HR Drift" as the event progresses but in fact its the HR drops throughout the event.

I do sessions where if I had a HRM I'd be dialing 999:eek:

brianon

Tingle wrote: »

...(maybe the bastardised Cross-Fit No Running But Actually There is Running Program works)...

Perfect description

Although in fairness I never said there would be NO running. Just not too much