Classic Army Steyr Aug A1 discussion

irishlostboy

well that is good to know. naturally i assumed that they were not checked out before sale, as in most businesses (meaning non-airsoft) this would not be the norm. i didn't intend that as being rude. i just said it as a suggestion, not knowing that it was already in place. as there is no information on whether or not testing is the norm, and as i had gotten one that was a bit over the top, i naturally assumed wrongly. apart from that i have no complaints about the aeg. and i never had any complaints about tony's service in the first place.
i will pop out this week sometime with my aug to have it toned down a wee bit. thanks.

Shiva

irishlostboy wrote: »

well that is good to know. naturally i assumed that they were not checked out before sale, as in most businesses (meaning non-airsoft) this would not be the norm. i didn't intend that as being rude. i just said it as a suggestion, not knowing that it was already in place. as there is no information on whether or not testing is the norm, and as i had gotten one that was a bit over the top, i naturally assumed wrongly. apart from that i have no complaints about the aeg. and i never had any complaints about tony's service in the first place.
i will pop out this week sometime with my aug to have it toned down a wee bit. thanks.

No problem - we'll have you sorted in double quick time.

My apologies for the sharp retort...I'm a little touchy when it comes to this subject

irishlostboy

Shiva wrote: »

No problem - we'll have you sorted in double quick time.

My apologies for the sharp retort...I'm a little touchy when it comes to this subject

no problems. it is understandable. will have it out asap.

TheDoc

hehe, Galway doesnt like AEG's from Dublin.

Member my first gathering i brought my JG G36c which in HRTA was coming in at 280-290...then down at GTAC was coming in at 400+.

They wouldnt let me use it so I went away, someone said go back again. I did, and without any changes to my AEG, came in 300.

Fruit for thought

Tigger

time dialation
only explination

kevteljeur

For the benefit of the audience: I had this problem (along with a large number of players from Dublin) at G-Tac too, at the Gathering - the apparent jump in power is caused by the difference in atmospheric conditions between Dublin and Galway, as bizarre as it sounds. You stand a very good chance of finding that when you test it in Eirsoft or anywhere else in Dublin, that your AEG is chronoing back under 1 joule. This is what happened with many of us, and the only way you can safeguard against it is to keep your output about 5% below 1J. This is to say, to be under 1J in Galway you might need a weaker spring.

The time of day, light, temperature, air pressure all make a small difference, but a few percent can put you comfortably over the limit.

I'm surprised at your experience in Galway at G-Tac, irishlostboy, I would say they've accounted for potential differences and I doubt that you were chronoing too far over to be let out into the field; Martin and the gang are very safety conscious and I doubt he'll be happy to read any of this. Sorry if it sounds like I'm having a go, I'm not.

irishlostboy

once the hop-up was fiddled with i chronoed a few points under the needed amount to play. a few people were chronoed WAY above the limit and couldn't use their own guns. i cannot remember how much i was over with the hop up not on. i will definately be getting it sorted out with a weaker spring or some such so i can play in the west.
i didn't say any of this to piss anyone off or cause trouble. just as a noob i wanted to point out what my experiance with my aug was. admitedly, my aeg had spent the night in the cold, was chronoed early in the morning, etc. personally, i think that i am going to have to get my hands dirty and figure out all the working parts of my aeg, so if this problem arises again i can deal with it myself. i dont want to go for a game somewhere and find i have to sit it out due to the atmospheric variances.

MAD Ozzie

Are you lot talking about hot-air balloons or AEG's?? These things are tested in HK,UK and the USA, where is the science to back that up??????????? (atmospheric variances)

I would love to here some expert say that, ask around the world and get the facts first, and please SHOW ALL OF US. (Please prove me wrong) And ill eat my Kings Arms FN-FAL.

1+ Cheep AEG +1 Cheep chrono = over the top reading. Up and down all the time.(Where ever you go) in the world!!

1 TM AEG and 1 good chrono, same every where, give or take 5-10fps, but still under 1J
We are all Noobs at this sport in Ireland.
So where the hell do you people come up with the info, (out ya asses I say)
Pm me the data, and ill edit the post, and make my apologies.!!

Now this is not a dig at Tony or Irishlostboy, as I of all people understand what you both have gone through, and going through, as im involved in a shop and a site, and im sick to death with downgrades, and fixing cheep AEG's because they are porly made like JG, Dboys, and the list goes on...

But that is the best bit of BS ive heard in a long time..(Maby a new chrono is needed in Galway), as Cork has had no probs with Dub players and there AEG's.
Yes the weather can make a small difference to the chrono, but not like 30-60fps over.

Back on topic, the new JG's are getting better, and the AUG would be the best of em, but most still need downgrading.

kevteljeur

MAD Ozzie wrote: »

Are you lot talking about hot-air balloons or AEG's?? These things are tested in HK,UK and the USA, where is the science to back that up??????????? (atmospheric variances)

I would love to here some expert say that, ask around the world and get the facts first, and please SHOW ALL OF US. (Please prove me wrong) And ill eat my Kings Arms FN-FAL.

1+ Cheep AEG +1 Cheep chrono = over the top reading. Up and down all the time.(Where ever you go) in the world!!

1 TM AEG and 1 good chrono, same every where, give or take 5-10fps, but still under 1J
We are all Noobs at this sport in Ireland.
So where the hell do you people come up with the info, (out ya asses I say)
Pm me the data, and ill edit the post, and make my apologies.!!

Now this is not a dig at Tony or Irishlostboy, as I of all people understand what you both have gone through, and going through, as im involved in a shop and a site, and im sick to death with downgrades, and fixing cheep AEG's because they are porly made like JG, Dboys, and the list goes on...

But that is the best bit of BS ive heard in a long time..(Maby a new chrono is needed in Galway), as Cork has had no probs with Dub players and there AEG's.
Yes the weather can make a small difference to the chrono, but not like 30-60fps over.

Back on topic, the new JG's are getting better, and the AUG would be the best of em, but most still need downgrading.

MAD Ozzie, it's not BS, and I take issue with you saying we (and by that you mean me, since I'm the one who brought it up) are talking out of our asses. A number of us had the problem, with AEGs that had been tested shortly before in Dublin coming in with a 10% increase in power over in Galway. To prove the point, the next day, in the morning, the same AEGs were coming in at up to 10% weaker. It's small variance but enough to put an AEG over. As the day warmed up, the FPS count started climbing until we were back where we were the previous day. And this wasn't an issue with AEGs being far over the limit due to being over-powered. We've seen it in Dublin to a much smaller degree. And you can try it yourself, chrono your kit in the morning when it's colder, and then again when it's warmer a good few hours later.

The discussion was had and closed in PMs as opposed to a thread here, a number of us discussed it since it affected a good number of people who went to the Gathering. I'm happy to say that I'm no expert but that was where we left it.

TheDoc

Yes the weather can make a small difference to the chrono, but not like 30-60fps over.

I'm not expert on chroning either. But from what I have heard, if direct sunlight hits a chrono it gives ridiculous readings.

Like I said, my JG G36c came in at 400+ at Gather2.

If something is chrono'd outside then its going to be inaccurate, but I think if we want to have a discussion we should take it to a new thread.

But Ozzi a simple search of airsoft forums, around the world, will tell you that Chonoing guns outdoors...will give inaccurate readings...fact.

As regards to your comment on "poorly" made Jing Gong and DBoys... I find that a peculiar statement. I'm not in anyway saying I'm an expert in internals, but I do have the joy of working with one of the best. And I very much value his opinion. Although clones have their problems, dboys and jing gong are extremely reliable makes.

And alot of Classic army users out there have dumped their CA gearbox and put in a DBOYS one because of their good performance.

The Jing Gong AUG is a great investment. Anything JG is going to be a good performer and mostly reliable.

Jing Gong have moved past the clone level and moving into the middle class of AEG's. But any JG aug, especially their AUG A3, is a solid investment. Just read Kev's review on the JG AUG3..and this is a good step above the previous aug versions.

ED E

Kevs speaking the truth. It was madness. We had 320's chronoing at 360! I'd say that could well be cause of the lad aboves problems.

MAD, you're the one BSing I'm afraid.

Masada

+1 there to kev.

I'm surprised by your completely irrational post Ozzie, id usually be of the opinion that you'd know what your talking about, but you obviously don't. As far as I'm aware you were at GTAC the last time when there was a huge number of people having problems with chrono readings including myself. i was using a JG G36c that reads 300fps both in HRTA and in the shop. yet it gave me 345-360 in GTAC.

I ended up having to cut the spring since I wasn't prepared for any problems with being over the limit.

It is a problem, it does exist. and i know more than a handful of people who have been caught out by it.

irishlostboy

man it is obviously a TOUCHY subject, (and i guess with reason. law etc) i didn't mean to stir up the hive like this. can anyone recomend some good vids or tuts on how to maintain/ modify my aeg? i am very good with technical stuff generally, and if things are as vtec etc says (and he seems to be the tech guy around here so will take his word for it, no offence to anyone else) it might be an idea to take a seperate spring?
sorry for taking things WAY off topic. it was not my intention. :eek: thanks for the info from folks though.

Shiva

irishlostboy wrote: »

man it is obviously a TOUCHY subject, (and i guess with reason. law etc) i didn't mean to stir up the hive like this. can anyone recomend some good vids or tuts on how to maintain/ modify my aeg? i am very good with technical stuff generally, and if things are as vtec etc says (and he seems to be the tech guy around here so will take his word for it, no offence to anyone else) it might be an idea to take a seperate spring?
sorry for taking things WAY off topic. it was not my intention. :eek: thanks for the info from folks though.

Welcome to Airsoft, my friend - We aren't happy unless we're arguing

www.mechbox.com is a great place for video tutorials on gearbox maintenance. Theres lots of other resources out there too - Google will throw thousands at you.

Hivemind187

I'm going to put this here and let Keith or Dex or one of the others who has investigated this phenomenon clarify the specifics of the science.

1) Chronographs used in Airsoft are not calibrated in a manner that can be checked so there is always the possibility of large variations in readings between different devices.

2) Chronographs work on the principal of two light beams being broken in sucession to give you a spead reading. If there is mabeint interference from another light source, this will disrupt the readings in the box due to a number of different photosentitive affects (reflection and refraction at the intersection of beams of light).

3) Chronographs measure the speed of an object travelling through am medium, in most cases dry air. However, should the air not be dry (e.g. higher humidity) you will see an alteration in speed due to high friction with molecules in the air. Dont believe me? Try using a chronograph in your bathroom after a shower, the moisture in the air will cause you to get a lower readiing that you usually would.

4) Chronographs measuring velocities used in Hong Kong are going to give you different readings than they would in Ireland. Hong Kongs ambient temperatures and general humidity are higher than Ireland ergo the velocities will be presented differently. On hot dry days they will chrono higher, on warm humid days they will chrono lower (simplified).

Each of these can be shown to be true by using the same chrono in different venue locations such as the Galway/Dublin paradox. The first Gathering saw a number of individuals bringing their own chrono kit (Defender Dude being one of them). This was how we knew that a peculiar interence was taking place because that chrono had been used in Dublin to take readings and was now giving higher readings in Galway without alteration to it's components.

The evidence provides for four alternatives.

1) That the chronograph readings were being interfereed with by atmospheric conditions.

2) That a huge number of players had decided, simoultaneously, to alter their kit to exceed the joule en route from Dublin and Cork.

3) That the chronographs spontaneously developed conciousness and mutually agreed by telepathy to **** about with the readings in Galway.

4) A wizard did it.

Application of Occams razor suggestions that the first one is most likely requiring the fewest assumptions.

/handing it over to people who can do math now.

TheDoc

I'd strongly advise enver to use a chrono in a bathroom ..espeically after shower :P

But thats a good read

gandalf

Lads I suggest that some of you try and cool down and not be as confrontational about this topic.

MacAonghusa

Hivemind187 wrote: »

The evidence provides for four alternatives.

May I just interject here and remind readers of the commonality of druids in the Galway area indeed throughout the province of Connacht? This is evidenced in a multitude of place/street/building names in the region. With that I mind I wouldn't rule out #4. :P


As for the Steyr, can I recommend the following to Aug fans:

- SA80 Sling: they're the absolute biz and work very well on a Steyr IMO. (also on a G36C btw)

- Laylax Aug side rail: too expensive for me unfortunately (due to shipping) but it's the only Aug rail i've managed to find and looks deadly.
http://www.tokyohobby.net/store/product_details.php?p=154

One thing I need to get for my Aug is a way of mounting a 20mm rail on top of the built in sight. I have a few ideas of my own but if anyone has any good ideas i'm all ears.
I also need a way of mounting a monocle to the sight but might just go with a simple universal barrel mount.


Edit: I keep hearing bad things about the CA Aug yet my own works flawlessly. What is wrong with them and what needs to be fixed? i.e. is there something I can easily change (w/o massive expense) to address the problems people have with them?

TheDoc

Mac Attack, I think its just certain batches, I'm not expert. But if we go on a time scale, it seems certain items bought from Ca in the past few months, havnt had the same durability as they had before.

Although there are obvious exceptions, some items are still flawless, some however are not.

MacAonghusa

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

Mac Attack

Why didn't I think of that; i'll have to use it.

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

I think its just certain batches, I'm not expert. But if we go on a time scale, it seems certain items bought from Ca in the past few months, havnt had the same durability as they had before.

Got mine from MIA in June. No issues so far but it's hasn't even had 1000 bbs through it yet. Only changed the hop-up cos I assumed the rest was solid.

NakedDex

MacAonghusa wrote: »

Edit: I keep hearing bad things about the CA Aug yet my own works flawlessly. What is wrong with them and what needs to be fixed? i.e. is there something I can easily change (w/o massive expense) to address the problems people have with them?

There's one simple fix to make it work.
Step 1: Open her up.
Step 2: Take a look at the gearbox.
Step 3: Wave to it as you chuck it in the bin.
Step 4: Replace with JG V3 box and G&P M120 motor.
Step 5: Enjoy a now wonderful rifle with a great performance.

MacAonghusa

NakedDex wrote: »

There's one simple fix to make it work.
Step 1: Open her up.
Step 2: Take a look at the gearbox.
Step 3: Wave to it as you chuck it in the bin.
Step 4: Replace with JG V3 box and G&P M120 motor.
Step 5: Enjoy a now wonderful rifle with a great performance.

:eek:
Remember that "massive expense" thing I mentioned ... !
I think I might wait until the gear box starts giving trouble before replacing anything

MAD Ozzie

my apologies.!! (The words come out before thinking) The out ya asses bit!!, it was not meant at anyone, or rely to offend people in any way.. So Im Sorry, and Im eating my FAL now (Its an Aussie thing.)

Just wanted to get the point out there that there is no prob between Cork and Dub, so why Galway??
I did the test on my kit this morning at 9.30am (TM M16.....284fps) and a Kinkgs Arms FN-FAL at 311fps,(average of 5 shots each).
Just tested again in the last ten min's (TM M16 292fps)(FN-FAL 322fps)
Just a slight difference of 10fps. So I see and under stand, as I have seen before that there is a slight change in readings, due to weather.
Now I can see you may have a prob if you AEG is at 327fps and chrono over, but still cant see the 30-60fps over reading?

Q. does HRTA chrono under cover,(outside) or in the open??

(Cork is done under cover outside) Perhaps that may be the cause??
( Ill test that one and see?)

JG and Dboys make good internals, I cant fault that at all. But its downgrading that I hate, and 80% would be those brands of aeg's, and I do at least 2-3 a month.(min)
Most come from HK direct. And I for one would get a JG before a Classic Army any day.

I am sorry if I have offended anyone.
Some topic's get people going, and that's one that got me going.

my apologies.!!

Ill say no more on the matter.

MacAonghusa

NakedDex wrote: »

Step 4: Replace with JG V3 box and G&P M120 motor.

MAD Ozzie wrote: »

And I for one would get a JG before a Classic

Quick question lads; is it not just the gears what would need changing rather than the whole mechbox? What else is superior in the JG mechbox?


Edit: Do you know if there is anyone who does mechbox work for a fee?

Tigger

MacAonghusa wrote: »

Quick question lads; is it not just the gears what would need changing rather than the whole mechbox? What else is superior in the JG mechbox?


Edit: Do you know if there is anyone who does mechbox work for a fee?

what do you want done

MacAonghusa

Tigger wrote: »

what do you want done

Don't know yet. But if I decide to work on the Steyr I'd prefer someone who knows what they're doing do the work ... since I paid €320 for the bloody yoke.

ED E

MacAonghusa wrote: »

Quick question lads; is it not just the gears what would need changing rather than the whole mechbox? What else is superior in the JG mechbox?


Edit: Do you know if there is anyone who does mechbox work for a fee?

Eh, you might be ok. I have a CA Aug bought in 2006. I've only had 3 problems two of which were MY FAULT. I snapped the foregrip, but I didnt use it much either ways. Secondly, the gearbox jammed as I forgot to replace the cover behind the trigger contacts and a BB decided to end its life in my gears. Third, air leak, which I think is due to the hop unit, new unit en route.

I wouldnt touch it as is, cept a TightBore if you want. The old ones are fine. I agree though that the newer CA stuff is ****e. Does that make my Aug rare/collectable:p

Tigger

MacAonghusa wrote: »

Don't know yet. But if I decide to work on the Steyr I'd prefer someone who knows what they're doing do the work ... since I paid €320 for the bloody yoke.

you can buy pre-upgraded mech boxes and motors and its an easy job to swap them out

really the only skill is in rebuilding and shimming the box

but if yer one workd well just do what letahal reckons and swap out the barrell thats a 5 minute job

NakedDex

MacAonghusa wrote: »

Quick question lads; is it not just the gears what would need changing rather than the whole mechbox? What else is superior in the JG mechbox?


Edit: Do you know if there is anyone who does mechbox work for a fee?

I was dramatising, though I would recommend an overhaul of the box internals. The only thing I'd bother saving is the case itself and the anti reversal latch. The trick to it is reshimming them afterwards. New gears, piston, bearings and motor. Any stock aeg will benefit from an upgrade or two, but I'd count the CA line as needing upgrades as a matter of necessity rather than option. It's less a case of it will fail and more when it will fail from my experience as both a CA owner and someone who's repaired enough of them.

NakedDex

MAD Ozzie wrote: »

my apologies.!! (The words come out before thinking) The out ya asses bit!!, it was not meant at anyone, or rely to offend people in any way.. So Im Sorry, and Im eating my FAL now (Its an Aussie thing.)

Just wanted to get the point out there that there is no prob between Cork and Dub, so why Galway??
I did the test on my kit this morning at 9.30am (TM M16.....284fps) and a Kinkgs Arms FN-FAL at 311fps,(average of 5 shots each).
Just tested again in the last ten min's (TM M16 292fps)(FN-FAL 322fps)
Just a slight difference of 10fps. So I see and under stand, as I have seen before that there is a slight change in readings, due to weather.
Now I can see you may have a prob if you AEG is at 327fps and chrono over, but still cant see the 30-60fps over reading?

Q. does HRTA chrono under cover,(outside) or in the open??

(Cork is done under cover outside) Perhaps that may be the cause??
( Ill test that one and see?)

JG and Dboys make good internals, I cant fault that at all. But its downgrading that I hate, and 80% would be those brands of aeg's, and I do at least 2-3 a month.(min)
Most come from HK direct. And I for one would get a JG before a Classic Army any day.

I am sorry if I have offended anyone.
Some topic's get people going, and that's one that got me going.

my apologies.!!

Ill say no more on the matter.

I might be able to shed some light on this. Compressed air, that expelled by the piston, behaves quite differently depending on air pressure, density/humidity and temperature. Height above sea level from one area to the next has an obvious effect on pressure. What people forget is density/humidity is vastly different near the coast than it is inland.
Cork/Dublin are both quite different in their operational environments. Cork has a warmer ambient average temperature than most of the country, it also had a sizeable coastline, increasing humidty.
Dublin has a relativley small coastline, but the Dublin sitesbare only a stones throw from them so proximity makes up for size. The ambient average temperature is also lower than that of Cork.
GTAC is considerably further inland than either the Cork or Dublin sites, which gives them lower average densities and higher average air pressure in summer/lower average in winter (coastlines tend to have more stable ambient weather where inland would see the more extreme).

These changes, in conjuction with non standardised chronography practices and the general differences from one device to the next (both chronograph and rifle/pistol/mg) result in widely varying results. The only way I've found to get definitive results when I'm testing items is to assume my chrono is calibrated and then modify the conditions to create an even environment. I test everything at 20degrees Celcius, 45% humidity (I go to the bother of a heater/cooler and de/humidifer for these purposes), no wind, with the chrono mounted level (using spirit levels) in a sheltered box to protect entry and exit points from ambient light and with 2 square feet of space empty around the exit point to ensure there's no back pressure action. The rifle/mg/pistol is also mounted on a clamp stand using spirit levels to ensure straight flight path through the chrono as diagonal or skewed flights through the chrono increase the gate-to-gate time, resulting in false readings.
In other words, to do it properly required time, effort and a fair bit of rigging. On site chronoing is quick and dirty, but is usually enough to pass an device as legal. No "open" system will ever be bang on.