VRT appeal

pj9999 · 14-11-2007 2:26am #1

I'm about to appeal the amount of VRT I've paid recently. This is a draft of the letter I'm thinking of sending them.
Probably they'll laugh at my 2nd paragraph where I mention the UK price...
Be grateful for any comments before I send it off.

Dear Sir/Madam,

I would like to appeal the amount of VRT I had to pay on a car I recently imported.

Vehicle BMW 316i SE 4dr auto. 1596cc
Reg. 97 D *****
OMSP €6330
VRT paid €1582

My appeal is based on the following 3 points:

1) I submit some examples of similar automobiles for sale in various publications. **Attach newspaper ads**

2) The newspaper ad in England advertising the car at GBP £2499 (c.€3700). I appreciate that the UK price usually has little bearing on the Irish OMSP, but it serves to illustrate that the OMSP for such an old car is unrealistic.

3) The fact that this car has an automatic transmission severely affects its value. There is very little demand for old automatic cars.

Were I to sell this car any time soon I know that the most I could expect to receive would be approximately €4000. However for the purposes of my appeal, I will suggest that it be valued at €4500.

I respectfully request therefore that the VRT payable be reduced to €1125.

Poppy Cock · 14-11-2007 9:43am

I agree with you, but you're wasting your time. And your letter reads like a post on a forum.

drdre · 14-11-2007 11:24am

Poppy Cock wrote: »

I agree with you, but you're wasting your time. And your letter reads like a post on a forum.

Agreed.They wont bother reading it.

cantdecide · 14-11-2007 11:28am

It's a late E36, they're still making money- it doesn't seem that bad really so I'd just let it go. I think you're undervaluing it. As a rule of thumb, doubling the sterling price gives you the euro price, cleared.

Next time just remember that some cars are very VRT friendly and some are less so (so don't lose sleep over what is basically a few quid).

Seth Brundle · 14-11-2007 11:33am

cantdecide wrote: »

It's a late E36, they're still making money- it doesn't seem that bad really so I'd just let it go. Next time just remember that some cars are very VRT friendly and some are less so.

Point #2 is irrelevant. UK prices have nothing to do with those here.
Point #3 is in a sense irrlelvant and unpriven (in the context of your post). Do your enclosed adverts include autos? How did you arrive at €4000. If this is what you believe the OMSP is then why are you instantly caving in and changing it to €4500?

Mailman · 14-11-2007 11:39am

Only point one will be relevant and the comparative pricing you use should be from a dealer's forecourt pricing. they will not consider private sales or prices achieved at auction.

You'll be very lucky if you win but if you want to bring the VRT system down then appeal the valuation and let an ombudsman decide. Revenue will probably have to employ an "independent specialist" to state that their valuation was fair. Expense to them will be great.
If everyone did this then the VRT system would be impossible to operate and would collapse but that would require pro-activity on the part of the public.

Hagar · 14-11-2007 11:42am

Mailman wrote: »

If everyone did this then the VRT system would be impossible to operate and would collapse but that would require pro-activity on the part of the public.

No, the system would just become more costly to operate and the costs would be passed on to the punters.

Mailman · 14-11-2007 12:20pm

Hagar wrote: »

No, the system would just become more costly to operate and the costs would be passed on to the punters.

lets all throw our hands in the air and murmur quietly that there is nothing that we can do.
I got a fair bit of knowledge out of my failed appeal. A useful fishing trip.
It also inconvenieced a number of civil servants who were trying to brush off my valid enquiries as to how they reached a valuation on my car. Basically these people didn't give a damn about whether they had valued my car correctly or not and were dealing with me in a very off-hand manner
A couple of FOI requests and a VRT appeal changed their attitude.

I'd recommend the VRT appeal process to anyone but don't expect a VRT refund. It's a sham of a process but it causes these civil servants considerable inconvenience to stage their sham.

shagman · 14-11-2007 12:25pm

You could ask them whether they get their OMSP figures from S.I.M.I ( which they do) as they have a vested interest in overvalueing cars to discourage punters from importing their own.
My dad got the vrt halved on an 85 beemer 7-series van(thats what it handled like anyway) using this arguement.
Bring em to their knees!!!

Hagar · 14-11-2007 12:32pm

Mailman wrote: »

lets all throw our hands in the air and murmur quietly that there is nothing that we can do.

VRT is an underhanded, immoral and illegal tax and there is little or nothing we can do about it.

cashmni1 · 14-11-2007 12:44pm

Mailman wrote: »

lets all throw our hands in the air and murmur quietly that there is nothing that we can do.
I got a fair bit of knowledge out of my failed appeal. A useful fishing trip.
It also inconvenieced a number of civil servants who were trying to brush off my valid enquiries as to how they reached a valuation on my car. Basically these people didn't give a damn about whether they had valued my car correctly or not and were dealing with me in a very off-hand manner
A couple of FOI requests and a VRT appeal changed their attitude.

I'd recommend the VRT appeal process to anyone but don't expect a VRT refund. It's a sham of a process but it causes these civil servants considerable inconvenience to stage their sham.

I agree. How do I make a VRT appeal? I don't care if I get a refund or not (well I do really) but I know I won't.
What I will achieve is awareness within their department and maybe the possibility that they might stop the increase of VRT in the future. Many more people have to join in though!!

Mailman · 14-11-2007 12:48pm

Hagar wrote: »

No, the system would just become more costly to operate and the costs would be passed on to the punters.

Hagar wrote: »

VRT is an underhanded, immoral and illegal tax and there is little or nothing we can do about it.

Wrong, you do everything you can legally do to bring it down.
appeal it every single time. stop buying cars and hold on to your car for longer, bollick politicians within an inch of their lives on the subject when they come knocking on the door looking for your vote.
Do anything possible except paying any more VRT than is possible
Evading the tax doesn't address the root cause of the problem.

Mailman · 14-11-2007 12:51pm

cashmni1 wrote: »

I agree. How do I make a VRT appeal? I don't care if I get a refund or not (well I do really) but I know I won't.
QUOTE]
appeal procedure outlined at
http://www.revenue.ie/index.htm?/leaflets/vrt1.htm

be very prompt with your responses as officials in the department will (intentionally????) try to time out your appeal window through slow response times to your appeal. Nearly happened to me.

Sizzler · 14-11-2007 1:31pm

Horse...stable door and bolted springs to mind

If you werent happy with the VRT they were hitting you with why did you write them a chq

You would have been perfectly entitled to drive back out of the place again and then think your next move. Trying to get a refund after the fact in this instance is futile me thinks.

Anan1 · 14-11-2007 1:33pm

shagman wrote: »

You could ask them whether they get their OMSP figures from S.I.M.I ( which they do) as they have a vested interest in overvalueing cars to discourage punters from importing their own.

From what I can see, they slightly undervalue most cars.

Matt Simis · 14-11-2007 1:49pm

Sizzler wrote: »

Horse...stable door and bolted springs to mind

If you werent happy with the VRT they were hitting you with why did you write them a chq You would have been perfectly entitled to drive back out of the place again and then think your next move. Trying to get a refund after the fact in this instance is futile me thinks.

You clearly havent looked at the VRT and the VRT appeals processes. You are not entitled to go driving off without paying VRT. You have 24hrs to pay it legally.

You cannot appeal or disagree with the VRT until you have paid it. Im in a similar situation however my car may never have been sold here, so I have no local references to quote. I do know that the UK + VRT (current rate) is lower than the OMSP the VRT quote is based on, which would imply its overvalued.

Del2005 · 14-11-2007 1:53pm

Sizzler wrote: »

Horse...stable door and bolted springs to mind

If you werent happy with the VRT they were hitting you with why did you write them a chq You would have been perfectly entitled to drive back out of the place again and then think your next move. Trying to get a refund after the fact in this instance is futile me thinks.

I'd say if you went to the VRT office and declined to pay the price they asked you'd have a very quick visit from the customs people putting your car onto a transporter and also charging you for the privilege. There is some arguement over if it's on the road or not. But the revenure.ie site states

2. When must I Register?

If you bring a vehicle into Ireland from abroad you must register it and pay VRT by the end of the next working day following its arrival in the State.

http://www.revenue.ie/faqs/faq_cat8.htm

So technically once you land the car you have to pay VRT even if it's sitting on a trailer.

Sizzler · 14-11-2007 2:04pm

Del2005 wrote: »

I'd say if you went to the VRT office and declined to pay the price they asked you'd have a very quick visit from the customs people putting your car onto a transporter and also charging you for the privilege. There is some arguement over if it's on the road or not. But the revenure.ie site states

http://www.revenue.ie/faqs/faq_cat8.htm

So technically once you land the car you have to pay VRT even if it's sitting on a trailer.

A simple "Sorry thats more than I thought it was going to be, I dont have full amount, I'll come back tomorrow". Its not like he's gone to the land of no return. Theres plenty of non-national plates on the roads mate so I dont think they would have hunted down the OP in 24 hours like you have suggested. There was a lad down the road from me driving a UK plated a 2001 Audi A8 4.2 for 9 months, explain that one :eek:

Sizzler · 14-11-2007 2:06pm

Matt Simis wrote: »

You cannot appeal or disagree with the VRT until you have paid it

Load of bollix, nice one Mr.Cowen :mad:

Now sir, what size tub of vaseline would you like? Large is it?
Just bend over the counter and we'll be with you in a moment...

Matt Simis · 14-11-2007 3:08pm

Sizzler wrote: »

A simple "Sorry thats more than I thought it was going to be, I dont have full amount, I'll come back tomorrow". Its not like he's gone to the land of no return. Theres plenty of non-national plates on the roads mate so I dont think they would have hunted down the OP in 24 hours like you have suggested. There was a lad down the road from me driving a UK plated a 2001 Audi A8 4.2 for 9 months, explain that one :eek:

You really should look this stuff up.

"Non-nationals" can drive here for upto 12mths if its a temporary visit. Afterwards they have to pay the VRT.
If you had the car for more than 6mths in another country and plan to move here permanently (for more than 1year) then you dont pay VRT either (while this process is underway you would be driving on non-Irish plates).
http://www.irishlinks.co.uk/importing-car-ireland.htm

If you walk into a VRT office with your details (and give them to the officer) and decide not to pay you are waving a red flag in the face of a government thats eager to get their pound of flesh. Its a stupid and pointless thing to even attempt.

Sizzler · 14-11-2007 3:35pm

Matt Simis wrote: »

"Non-nationals" can drive here for upto 12mths if its a temporary visit. Afterwards they have to pay the VRT.
If you had the car for more than 6mths in another country and plan to move here permanently (for more than 1year) then you dont pay VRT either (while this process is underway you would be driving on non-Irish plates).
http://www.irishlinks.co.uk/importing-car-ireland.htm

How do you know what the circumstances were of the guy down the road from me

I was merely stating he had a UK plated car, on one hand you say it has to be reregd immediately and on the other a lad has 9 months!All I'm saying is the odds are going around in a UK plated car for that period of time is questionable to say the least and leads me to believe the enforcement is not quiet as good as you believe it to be.

Matt Simis · 14-11-2007 4:23pm

Sizzler wrote: »

How do you know what the circumstances were of the guy down the road from me I was merely stating he had a UK plated car, on one hand you say it has to be reregd immediately and on the other a lad has 9 months!All I'm saying is the odds are going around in a UK plated car for that period of time is questionable to say the least and leads me to believe the enforcement is not quiet as good as you believe it to be.

What? Im not telling anyone to get their car VRTed or that they will be found out after 24hrs, plenty of people put it on the long finger.

Im merely saying wandering into the VRT office, going through your personal details, your vehicle details including Reg Plate then telling them you arent paying and walking out is a dumb move.

Del2005 · 14-11-2007 4:31pm

Sizzler wrote: »

How do you know what the circumstances were of the guy down the road from me I was merely stating he had a UK plated car, on one hand you say it has to be reregd immediately and on the other a lad has 9 months!All I'm saying is the odds are going around in a UK plated car for that period of time is questionable to say the least and leads me to believe the enforcement is not quiet as good as you believe it to be.

And what Matt Simis and I are trying to say is that if you go into the VRT office with all the paper work, get a price and walk out they will more then likely be a bit p!ssed off and may hunt you down. The person down the road from you who drove for 9 months on an English reg, was either a non national and allowed or he was avoiding tax and got away with it.

If the Customs/Gardai/VRO people don't know you have a forgien reg car in this country and you are an Irish resident then you will more then likely not get caught, I've only seen 1 VRT check point. But if you somehow come to their attention then they will be very quick to chase you down for the tax you owe, and they have the power to confiscate your vehicle and charge you for storage +penalties + VRT due

Edit - Matt Simis beat me to it again.

Guy:Incognito · 14-11-2007 6:27pm

Sizzler wrote: »

Load of bollix, nice one Mr.Cowen :mad:

Now sir, what size tub of vaseline would you like? Large is it?
Just bend over the counter and we'll be with you in a moment...

How are you pinning that on Brian Cowan? Vrt is aorund 15 years or so, even then it is only a name change from a tax that was brought in by FF at all (FG afaik)

Mailman · 14-11-2007 7:46pm

Stekelly wrote: »

How are you pinning that on Brian Cowan? Vrt is aorund 15 years or so, even then it is only a name change from a tax that was brought in by FF at all (FG afaik)

Bertie Ahern as Minister for Finance introduced VRT in the Finance Act of 1992.

JHMEG · 14-11-2007 8:00pm

Mailman wrote: »

Bertie Ahern as Minister for Finance introduced VRT in the Finance Act of 1992.

What was it called before that? Was it VAT or Excise Duty, and the EU had a problem with different VAT rates, or a problem with Excise being charged on items from the EU?

Mailman · 14-11-2007 9:07pm

JHMEG wrote: »

What was it called before that? Was it VAT or Excise Duty, and the EU had a problem with different VAT rates, or a problem with Excise being charged on items from the EU?

Duty which can't be levied across borders within the trading block as it is supposedly one market.

Sizzler · 14-11-2007 9:31pm

Stekelly wrote: »

How are you pinning that on Brian Cowan? Vrt is aorund 15 years or so, even then it is only a name change from a tax that was brought in by FF at all (FG afaik)

He's from Offaly

Guy:Incognito · 15-11-2007 12:31am

Mailman wrote: »

Bertie Ahern as Minister for Finance introduced VRT in the Finance Act of 1992.

You mean as minister for finance Bertie Ahern renamed the old version of VRT.

Mailman · 15-11-2007 9:57am

Stekelly wrote: »

You mean as minister for finance Bertie Ahern renamed the old version of VRT.

No VRT is different to Duty.

pj9999 · 15-11-2007 3:14pm

I've posted off my appeal anyway.
Left out mention of the UK price, and the newspaper ads (could only find ads for manuals).
Gave them a listing from carzone though.

Threw in the bit about whether they were using a SIMI valuation.
Don't expect anything from them, but shur if you don't ask...

PS Sizzler, I knew in advance of visiting the VRO, how much I was going to be charged. But I wanted to keep this car, and, while I had been driving it here on UK plates for about 10 months, I had decided that it was time to legalise it. The only way was to pay up, and appeal afterwards, which is what I had always planned to do anyway.

VRT appeal

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