Roundabouts

Potential-Monke

Road arrows take preceedence over anything else, o if they're there you go by them, otherwise the explination in the ROTR is used. And there was awareness, the ad's advertising the ROTR told people to read it, what more do you need? An ad for every change they made? No, it's up to Joe Public to find out. There seems to be a form of thinking out there that unless the fact is thrown into your face it's not a fact, but it's everyone's own responsibility to find out the changes themselves. You wouldn;t go to another country to drive without finding out the rules beforehand would you?

Yes, the ROTR are guidelines, but until there is something else out there they are the guidelines we should abide by.

Pete4779

RE: ambiguity about Straight On. Someone commented on what "straight on" is subjective as much as the clock when I criticised that.

However, I don't see where the ambiguity comes from. Every roundabout is to be treated as a junction, that is one of the first instructions in the 2007 RotR.

For example, you are travelling on fictional road N400. The roundabout has three exits, one left at "9 o clock" to the R34. The next is the continuation of the N400, and it is at "1 o clock", and the third is the other side of the R34 off at "3 o clock".

Now, every roundabout is to be treated as a junction, there is no ambiguity about that, it's written clear as day in the RotR 2007. If you want to continue on the R400, that you are yes, indeed, going straight on, even though it's after twelve o clock, and that you are to enter and exit the roundabout by the left lane. This is because the RotR refer to straight on, and not to clock faces because clock faces would confuse people (one mans twelve is another's 11:30). It appears that people don't even know what road they are driving on and whether they are leaving it or not.

So there isn't any problem with knowing what straight on means, as long you know what road you are driving on and that you are not leaving it. The roundabouts are not the end and beginning of a new planet of driving, they are junctions, and you know full well whether you are taking an exit from a junction or going straight on, no matter what time it is, or whether it's roundabouted or not.

Potential-Monke

Ok, i'm going to type this in big letters to make it easier for you to read...

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT STRAIGHT ON MEANS! And quite frankly, i'm getting sick of trying to explain it to you.

Or maybe clocks are too hard for you. Lets try a compass. You're standing at south, heading north, which happens to be straight on. One could stratch straight on to be NNE, but not NE (see image). One who goes in the left lane to approach at S and exit at NE is wrong!!!

kaiser sauze

GreeBo wrote: »

Thats my problem with it just changing. How can they/Gay decide to change the flow of traffic on our roundabouts without a study and public representation/awareness campaign?
There are lots of roundabouts where using the 2nd exit gives you a different approach lane than using the "straight ahead" exit. Unless they have painted new arrows on all of these roads the traffic will be unevenly balanced and cause blockages on the roundabouts.

I havent noticed many new arrows or a public awareness campaign, have you?
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but arent the ROTR a guideline and not "law" in any way?

Like Potential-Monke said: there was an awareness campaign. I have to admit that until a post I made last night, I had forgotten about it, but it was done.

We have said it that if you are directed otherwise: by road signage, garda or unforseen obstruction, you do as you are instructed, otherwise you go in the left lane for any exits up to straight ahead from the exit you approach the roundabout from. Anything after this you take the right lane.

There can be seven exits between your exit and a hypothetical one straight ahead of your position, you still take the left lane for all of these. The number of them does not matter. Even if there was only one after the straight ahead position, that would be the only exit where you can use the right lane.

{I must add that this scenario is unlikely, and extreme, but I am trying to emphasise a point. In all probability, there would be road signage dictating what lane you should be in, and it might even be a three lane entrance! :eek:}

I can't answer your query about law, but this is from the introduction on the first page of the RSA website. It seems to be a good answer.

"The Road Safety Authority (RSA) is tasked with improving safety on our roads in order to reduce death and injury resulting from road collisions. The legal basis for the RSA is set out in the Road Safety Authority Act 2006. The RSA formally came into existence on 1st September 2006."

kaiser sauze

Stark wrote: »

I think they were just correcting some ambiguity in the old RotR, rather than actually changing the law. If you look at the pictures in the old RotR, they talk about "first exit" and "straight ahead", "right turn", whereas the text above says "second exit", leading to confusion.

Exactly what we have been saying in this topic. Thanks.

Pete4779

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Ok, i'm going to type this in big letters to make it easier for you to read...

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT STRAIGHT ON MEANS! And quite frankly, i'm getting sick of trying to explain it to you.

Or maybe clocks are too hard for you. Lets try a compass. You're standing at south, heading north, which happens to be straight on. One could stratch straight on to be NNE, but not NE (see image). One who goes in the left lane to approach at S and exit at NE is wrong!!!

Come off it. You know exactly what I mean and what straight on is.

The RSA say if you are going straight on, you take the left lane.

Are you disputing what the RotR 2007 and RSA are saying? The roundabout isn't a magical world of it's own. It's a junction system and is to be treated as such according the Rules of the Road.

Forget about points of a compass or the clock or any other "analogies" for what is REALITY. Please please please stop decided what the rules mean in a way that your head can understand, and just take the rules for what they are, i.e., the Rules. No clocks, no compasses, no water divining rods, no wind speed, none of it.

You would seriously cut across a lane just because it was at "1 of clock" or NNE. Maybe if you just put all that garbage out of your mind (clearly difficult), and decided are you going straight on on your current road or not, you'd know what lane to be in.

In my example above, someone continuing through a roundabout on the R or N road they are on, but it's not PERFECTLY at 12 o clock, you use that as an excuse to get into the right-hand lane and cut back across left. Even though, any sane person knows straight on means not turning - it's straight on the road you are on. But for you it's a half twelve, so get into the right hand lane. Yup, you are still going straight on aren't you, you haven't changed to another R or N or M road or anything. Same road, straight on, but like a person driving in the right hand lane when not overtaking, you are making a mess for everyone else to be extra careful.

Have you only ever driven perfect straights roads? Or do you indicate left all the time while travelling south on the M50? It's straight on too, but turning left the whole time. Your exit on a roundabout might mean you are now not going perfectly in the same direction, it might be "1 o clock" or NNE, or whatever, but you are continuing on your road straight on, same as you would at any junction.

If you are not leaving your road, you are going straight on. The road might loop the loop and twist 560 times, but if you are not leaving your road for another road, and you keep on driving, it's straight on. This is driving. Roads twist and turn and you are still going - STRAIGHT ON. North is NOT equal to straight on. It could be anything. So forget about the compass, clock, or ouija board or whatever other "system" you think fits. NO system. JUST the rules.

Could you point out to me where the Rules of the Road says that Straight on is 12 o clock? Or where Straight on is North? It's not there. And because it's not there, you shouldn't be using these concepts instead of the proper Rules of the Road.

Stark

Pete4779 wrote: »

Could you point out to me where the Rules of the Road says that Straight on is 12 o clock? Or where Straight on is North? It's not there. And because it's not there, you shouldn't be using these concepts instead of the proper Rules of the Road.

It doesn't say "tout droite" either. But French people can still use roundabouts.

Pete4779

Stark wrote: »

It doesn't say "tout droite" either. But French people can still use roundabouts.

That's not helpful Stark.

Straight on has nothing to do with what geographic position, GPS coordinates, clock time, or anything else, yet several posters here are interpreting STraight On (as written in the Rules of the Road) as concerning these.

So, despite many roads being twisty and bendy, you know yourself if you are going straight on. ANd that might be 1 o clock, and a few minutes later 2 o clock. It changes, and that makes any such system likes clocks, compasses, unworkable.

However, knowing that Straight On means continuing on your current road is obvious, because one the first rules on roundabouts in the 2007 RotR is that each roundabout is a junction. If there was no roundabout, would people still be getting into the right hand lane? Or would they know what straight on is then. It's not complicated.

kaiser sauze

Pete4779 wrote: »

However, I don't see where the ambiguity comes from. Every roundabout is to be treated as a junction, that is one of the first instructions in the 2007 RotR.

Why are you still debating it if you can't see any ambiguity?

Pete4779 wrote: »

For example, you are travelling on fictional road N400. The roundabout has three exits, one left at "9 o clock" to the R34. The next is the continuation of the N400, and it is at "1 o clock", and the third is the other side of the R34 off at "3 o clock".

Now, every roundabout is to be treated as a junction, there is no ambiguity about that, it's written clear as day in the RotR 2007. If you want to continue on the R400, that you are yes, indeed, going straight on, even though it's after twelve o clock, and that you are to enter and exit the roundabout by the left lane. This is because the RotR refer to straight on, and not to clock faces because clock faces would confuse people (one mans twelve is another's 11:30). It appears that people don't even know what road they are driving on and whether they are leaving it or not.

So there isn't any problem with knowing what straight on means, as long you know what road you are driving on and that you are not leaving it. The roundabouts are not the end and beginning of a new planet of driving, they are junctions, and you know full well whether you are taking an exit from a junction or going straight on, no matter what time it is, or whether it's roundabouted or not.

Yawn.

The scenario you point out here dictates that you would take the right lane, not the left lane as you state.

First there is no ambiguity, then the very next paragraph, you show that you do not understand the explanations that have been given.

We can only do so much.

kaiser sauze

Pete4779 wrote: »

That's not helpful Stark.

Straight on has nothing to do with what geographic position, GPS coordinates, clock time, or anything else, yet several posters here are interpreting STraight On (as written in the Rules of the Road) as concerning these.

So, despite many roads being twisty and bendy, you know yourself if you are going straight on. ANd that might be 1 o clock, and a few minutes later 2 o clock. It changes, and that makes any such system likes clocks, compasses, unworkable.

However, knowing that Straight On means continuing on your current road is obvious, because one the first rules on roundabouts in the 2007 RotR is that each roundabout is a junction. If there was no roundabout, would people still be getting into the right hand lane? Or would they know what straight on is then. It's not complicated.

I can't make it any simpler: you're wrong.

If there was no roundabout, would people still be getting into the right hand lane?

There would be no right hand lane in this scenario. What are you on?

kaiser sauze

Pete4779 wrote: »

Come off it. You know exactly what I mean and what straight on is.

The RSA say if you are going straight on, you take the left lane.

Are you disputing what the RotR 2007 and RSA are saying? The roundabout isn't a magical world of it's own. It's a junction system and is to be treated as such according the Rules of the Road.

Forget about points of a compass or the clock or any other "analogies" for what is REALITY. Please please please stop decided what the rules mean in a way that your head can understand, and just take the rules for what they are, i.e., the Rules. No clocks, no compasses, no water divining rods, no wind speed, none of it.

You would seriously cut across a lane just because it was at "1 of clock" or NNE. Maybe if you just put all that garbage out of your mind (clearly difficult), and decided are you going straight on on your current road or not, you'd know what lane to be in.

In my example above, someone continuing through a roundabout on the R or N road they are on, but it's not PERFECTLY at 12 o clock, you use that as an excuse to get into the right-hand lane and cut back across left. Even though, any sane person knows straight on means not turning - it's straight on the road you are on. But for you it's a half twelve, so get into the right hand lane. Yup, you are still going straight on aren't you, you haven't changed to another R or N or M road or anything. Same road, straight on, but like a person driving in the right hand lane when not overtaking, you are making a mess for everyone else to be extra careful.

Have you only ever driven perfect straights roads? Or do you indicate left all the time while travelling south on the M50? It's straight on too, but turning left the whole time. Your exit on a roundabout might mean you are now not going perfectly in the same direction, it might be "1 o clock" or NNE, or whatever, but you are continuing on your road straight on, same as you would at any junction.

If you are not leaving your road, you are going straight on. The road might loop the loop and twist 560 times, but if you are not leaving your road for another road, and you keep on driving, it's straight on. This is driving. Roads twist and turn and you are still going - STRAIGHT ON. North is NOT equal to straight on. It could be anything. So forget about the compass, clock, or ouija board or whatever other "system" you think fits. NO system. JUST the rules.

Could you point out to me where the Rules of the Road says that Straight on is 12 o clock? Or where Straight on is North? It's not there. And because it's not there, you shouldn't be using these concepts instead of the proper Rules of the Road.

Your keys must be on fire!

Seriously, we've reached a consensus, you just don't get it.

Like I said to you in another reply, you would be wrong to do as you described at the roundabout you specified.

Pete4779

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Why are you still debating it if you can't see any ambiguity?



Yawn.

The scenario you point out here dictates that you would take the right lane, not the left lane as you state.

First there is no ambiguity, then the very next paragraph, you show that you do not understand the explanations that have been given.

We can only do so much.

Because I am concerned that people are deciding for themselves what the rules of the road are, and after pages of posts before I joined, no one had actually linked up the 2007 edition of the official rules before I did.

Straight on for me = continuing on my current road, and not taking an exit from it. (i.e., treating the roundabout as a junction - one of the first instructions in the official rules of the road). The roads don't stop at the roundabouts, they continue on the other side, so you plan ahead and know what you are doing. If continuing on say the N11, the N11 on the other side of a roundabout is Straight On.

Straight on for you = not treating the roundabout as a junction (which is contradicting the rules of the road) and interpreting Straight On to be concerned with compass directions or points on a clock face (which is again something entirely fictional as it isn't in the rules of the road).

Where did you get the idea that you can suddenly disconnect the rules of the road at a roundabout, apply a fictional "rule" about compass points or clocks, and then continue "straight on" on the same road (e.g., R339 or something like that), and use the right hand lane, even when the rules are so clear about using the left lane.

Pete4779

kaiser sauze wrote: »

I can't make it any simpler: you're wrong.



There would be no right hand lane in this scenario. What are you on?

There are many situations where there are two lanes, an exit left, straight on (but it might not be perfectly straight, it might - oh my god - be at a slight angle) and a turn right. You see it all around the country.

Pete4779

kaiser sauze wrote: »

The scenario you point out here dictates that you would take the right lane, not the left lane as you state.

But the rules of the road say that I should enter the roundabout on the left lane, treat the roundabout as a junction, and if going straight on (which I am) I use the left lane. I am continuing straight on on my road, and that might be North South, West or umpteen o clock.

I am not stating this system, the RSA are.

JazzyJ

Pete4779 wrote: »

Straight on for me = continuing on my current road, and not taking an exit from it. (i.e., treating the roundabout as a junction - one of the first instructions in the official rules of the road). The roads don't stop at the roundabouts, they continue on the other side, so you plan ahead and know what you are doing. If continuing on say the N11, the N11 on the other side of a roundabout is Straight On.

So what happens if you're on the N11 approaching a roundabout and there are 3 exits at a roundabout before the N11 exit (which could be in effect be a 90 degress right turn), are you suggesting to stay in the left lane?

Stark

Pete4779 wrote: »

Because I am concerned that people are deciding for themselves what the rules of the road are, and after pages of posts before I joined, no one had actually linked up the 2007 edition of the official rules before I did.

Straight on for me = continuing on my current road, and not taking an exit from it. (i.e., treating the roundabout as a junction - one of the first instructions in the official rules of the road). The roads don't stop at the roundabouts, they continue on the other side, so you plan ahead and know what you are doing. If continuing on say the N11, the N11 on the other side of a roundabout is Straight On.

Can you back up your interpretation from the rules of the road? The rules of the road say "straight ahead". There's nothing in there about road numberings at the other side of the roundabout. You talk about "straight on for me". Everyone else is using the system that is generally taught to people and the official system that driving testers use. I think that's the better indication of who's correct, rather than "he who shouts the loudest and insults the most" is correct.

JazzyJ wrote:

So what happens if you're on the N11 approaching a roundabout and there are 3 exits at a roundabout before the N11 exit (which could be in effect be a 90 degress right turn), are you suggesting to stay in the left lane?

Indeed he is.

kaiser sauze

Pete4779 wrote: »

Because I am concerned that people are deciding for themselves what the rules of the road are, and after pages of posts before I joined, no one had actually linked up the 2007 edition of the official rules before I did.

No, we are not. We are interpreting them properly.

Pete4779 wrote: »

Straight on for me = continuing on my current road, and not taking an exit from it. (i.e., treating the roundabout as a junction - one of the first instructions in the official rules of the road). The roads don't stop at the roundabouts, they continue on the other side, so you plan ahead and know what you are doing. If continuing on say the N11, the N11 on the other side of a roundabout is Straight On.

This is wrong. I can't make it any clearer.

I'm going to have to ask somebody to scan in the RoTR that was issued only a while ago to everyone in the country. I gave my copy to an L-driver & I have no Adobe to read the online version either! (PC maintenance )

I am also going to ask somebody to address this poster's point about junctions. Isn't there something in the introduction to roundabouts specifying an exemption from this junctions rule, or something akin to this?

Pete4779 wrote: »

Straight on for you = not treating the roundabout as a junction (which is contradicting the rules of the road) and interpreting Straight On to be concerned with compass directions or points on a clock face (which is again something entirely fictional as it isn't in the rules of the road).

No, I am treating the roundabout as I am instructed in the RoTR, and by my driving instructor years ago.

Pete4779 wrote: »

Where did you get the idea that you can suddenly disconnect the rules of the road at a roundabout, apply a fictional "rule" about compass points or clocks, and then continue "straight on" on the same road (e.g., R339 or something like that), and use the right hand lane, even when the rules are so clear about using the left lane.

:rolleyes: I have not gotten an idea, and there are no fictional rules being quoted to you either.

kaiser sauze

Pete4779 wrote: »

But the rules of the road say that I should enter the roundabout on the left lane, treat the roundabout as a junction, and if going straight on (which I am) I use the left lane. I am continuing straight on on my road, and that might be North South, West or umpteen o clock.

I am not stating this system, the RSA are.

No, you are mis-stating the RoTR.

SeanW

Pete4779 wrote: »

Because I am concerned that people are deciding for themselves what the rules of the road are, and after pages of posts before I joined, no one had actually linked up the 2007 edition of the official rules before I did.

Straight on for me = continuing on my current road, and not taking an exit from it. (i.e., treating the roundabout as a junction - one of the first instructions in the official rules of the road). The roads don't stop at the roundabouts, they continue on the other side, so you plan ahead and know what you are doing. If continuing on say the N11, the N11 on the other side of a roundabout is Straight On.

Straight on for you = not treating the roundabout as a junction (which is contradicting the rules of the road) and interpreting Straight On to be concerned with compass directions or points on a clock face (which is again something entirely fictional as it isn't in the rules of the road).

Where did you get the idea that you can suddenly disconnect the rules of the road at a roundabout, apply a fictional "rule" about compass points or clocks, and then continue "straight on" on the same road (e.g., R339 or something like that), and use the right hand lane, even when the rules are so clear about using the left lane.

I've been looking over ROTR myself, and all it says is that you stay in the left lane if you're turning left or going "straight on." But of course "Straight On" isn't explained.

In the case of unsual layouts this might cause confusion but your "I'm staying on my road, therefore I stay left" well, what happens if 'your' road is 270 degrees from your entry and three or four exits in - are you still going to stay in the left lane? I hope not because that would be wrong as far as I can see. As for your "roundabouts are junctions" statement well guess what, sometimes staying on your route means making a turn - like the N5 in some town in Connaught for example where the N-route makes a right turn off a junction and if you "stayed on the road" you would leave the N5 - so just because you're staying on a route doesn't mean you won't have to turn at junctions, there's a similar setup here in Longford where the N5 goes through town and turns around a traffic light controlled T-Junction.
So if a roundabout is a junction, you shouldn't drive like you're not turning.

If you ever come around our way on the N5 I sure as hell hope you don't approach those junctions with the attitude that "I'm staying on my road" and by extension not indicating.

A road classification is just that - route class and number.

TherapyBoy

So the proper way to use a roundabout is this then:

When approaching a roundabout, pay attention to where you are, who's around you and where you are going, and some common sense never goes astray.

Right? :cool:

Wishbone Ash

I think we're flogging a dead horse here lads.