Saudi Arabia in the dark ages

jonny72

Honestly and truly

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7096814.stm
"An appeal court in Saudi Arabia has doubled the number of lashes and added a jail sentence as punishment for a woman who was gang-raped"

not to mention..

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/ukcorrespondents/holysmoke/november07/how-to-beat-your-wife.htm
How to beat your wife..

I am amazed we even do business with a country like this, but whatever same story, our governments have no morals, sell arms to whoever, blah blah

Mr.Micro

Its the oil they have which makes us all impervious to its human rights record.The West is scared of upsetting the Saudis at all costs .

purple'n'gold

Ok, we all know what the Arabs/Saudis are like, and that they still live in the dark ages. But check out this link.
http://www.facts1.com/general/news.htm#pizza
It’s about California’s three strike law. A guy actually got LIFE in prison for stealing a pizza.
Now we expect no better from Arabs, and we all know that Americans are not exactly the most sophisticated of people, but this is way over the top. What I am doing is making a comparison between, enlightenment (Europe for instance) and cruelty, USA/Saudi Arabia. Both countries still use the death penalty of course.

bobbyjoe

And the King got the red carpet treatment in the UK from the Queen last week. Makes all this spreading democracy, fighting tyrants and fredom stuff ring very hollow.

donaghs

purplengold wrote: »

Ok, we all know what the Arabs/Saudis are like, and that they still live in the dark ages. But check out this link.
http://www.facts1.com/general/news.htm#pizza
It’s about California’s three strike law. A guy actually got LIFE in prison for stealing a pizza.
Now we expect no better from Arabs, and we all know that Americans are not exactly the most sophisticated of people, but this is way over the top. What I am doing is making a comparison between, enlightenment (Europe for instance) and cruelty, USA/Saudi Arabia. Both countries still use the death penalty of course.

It certainly seems over the top, but for a 27-year old he certainly had amassed plenty of convictions: "Williams prior convictions were for robbery, attempted robbery, unauthorized use of a motor vehicle and possession of a controlled substance."

How can you compare this guy to a woman who has been gang-raped?

purple'n'gold

The comparison I am making is between repressive regimes like the USA and Saudi Arabia and enlightened countries in western Europe.

djpbarry

donaghs wrote: »

It certainly seems over the top, but for a 27-year old he certainly had amassed plenty of convictions: "Williams prior convictions were for robbery, attempted robbery, unauthorized use of a motor vehicle and possession of a controlled substance."

Fair enough, but should a guy spend the rest of his life in prison for a series of petty crimes? I would have to say no.

djpbarry

purplengold wrote: »

Now we expect no better from Arabs

By "Arabs" I presume you mean the Saudi Monarchy?

Mick86

purplengold wrote: »

Ok, we all know what the Arabs/Saudis are like, and that they still live in the dark ages. But check out this link.
http://www.facts1.com/general/news.htm#pizza
It’s about California’s three strike law. A guy actually got LIFE in prison for stealing a pizza.
Now we expect no better from Arabs, and we all know that Americans are not exactly the most sophisticated of people, but this is way over the top. What I am doing is making a comparison between, enlightenment (Europe for instance) and cruelty, USA/Saudi Arabia. Both countries still use the death penalty of course.

Thank God we live in enlightened Ireland where a murderer can get as little as 12 months behind bars.:rolleyes:

InFront

The Saudi Regime is in the dark ages on many issues. The regime is largely racist, misogynist and corrupt, it is politically and ideologically opportunistic and has no loyalty but to wealth. Saudis and religious leaders there need to compare their own values to those of their monarchy and their rulers, then change the latter accordingly.

The leadership of KSA has secured its nesting place both through wealth and through politics, and that is what has guaranteed both its stability and the immense social problems and injustices this brings.

Sand

purplengold wrote:

Fair enough, but should a guy spend the rest of his life in prison for a series of petty crimes? I would have to say no.

The 3 strikes law was brought in to deal with habitual criminals who crimes taken in their own right would be fairly minor, but as a continuing track record would be a serious problem. Personally any law of such a sort would have to have some minimum degree of offence locked into it to prevent people getting life for stealing a pizza, but on the other hand - its a bit of an IQ test.

Remember thats only the crimes the guy has been caught, arrested, tried and convicted for. This is not a some guy caught in the wrong time and the wrong place and mistakenly convicted 3 times in a row.

InFront - The issues with the Saudi legal system run deeper than just the leadership. I am not aware of the injustice of the courts sentencing sparking any outrage in SA so based on imperfect infomration admittedly I must assume the laws and judgements that resulted in this sentence must be broadly supported.

If anything, I would have thought this womans only hope is that international pressure leads the SA leadership to grant some form of pardon to this woman as I understand they are more "liberal" than the everyday population on issues like this. Not saying there arent Saudis who would disagree with the sentence, just that the problem runs deeper than just the ruling regime.

InFront

Sand wrote: »

InFront - The issues with the Saudi legal system run deeper than just the leadership. I am not aware of the injustice of the courts sentencing sparking any outrage in SA so based on imperfect infomration admittedly I must assume the laws and judgements that resulted in this sentence must be broadly supported.

Saudi is an extremely diverse place with hugely vascillating public opinion is issues such as criminal law and ethics. I don't agree this would be "broadly supported" at all.

I understand they are more "liberal" than the everyday population on issues like this

Where are you getting this information? Most people would be of the opinion that the legislature and the general leadership are the "purists" of Saudi society; and I only use that term in relation to a misguided sense of purity.

Mr.Micro

It appears to me that a person would have to do very little to incur the wrath of the authorities in S Arabia.There is no opposition parties so any reprehensible laws or policies would be carried out without opposition.

supertramp

What I don't understand is that how the issue of 'War On Terror' to be very selective, is remaining simply as a topic of debate, and that these governments are not being tackled shows that peolpe are not in any way near in control, as democracy should be.
Although I agree the US, Britain, etc have to take a tough stance on terrorism, but it's how they gloat about bringing (allegedly) democrasy to Iraq, Afghanistan, while they ignore other, more prominent anti-democrasy states like Sudan, Venezuala. And the US are also supporting President Musharraf in Pakistan, when he is doing what he is doing to that country.
Democracy is a scape-goat for politicians

Mr.Micro

supertramp wrote: »

What I don't understand is that how the issue of 'War On Terror' to be very selective, is remaining simply as a topic of debate, and that these governments are not being tackled shows that peolpe are not in any way near in control, as democracy should be.
Although I agree the US, Britain, etc have to take a tough stance on terrorism, but it's how they gloat about bringing (allegedly) democrasy to Iraq, Afghanistan, while they ignore other, more prominent anti-democrasy states like Sudan, Venezuala. And the US are also supporting President Musharraf in Pakistan, when he is doing what he is doing to that country.
Democracy is a scape-goat for politicians

Yes it appears if you cosy up to The US and UK ,no matter how bad your own country s human rights are , you are safe in the club .Democracy is just a word to be used when it suits .

pjproby

I tried to raise this on the Islam board here and one respondent considered it to be a gender issue. The moderator then closed the thread.
I wonder did it ever dawn on the victim that it was all about gender!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055184435

InFront

It isn't a theology issue nor does it even relate to Irish Muslims; you raised it as a political issue, which is why it was closed.

Democracy is just a word to be used when it suits .

Absolutely. But there are no loyalties in the Middle East, Saudi knows this, the US know this. It wasn't so long ago that the US/UK and Iraq were conspiring against the Iranians, for example, nor since the Iranians were conspiring with the US/UK against Iraq.
Nobody knows what the future holds for KSA, but the as long as both parties continue to benefit, the current arrangement, a bargain of two devils, will stand - regardless of human rights abuses there or what the UN says.

Mick86

pjproby wrote: »

I tried to raise this on the Islam board here and one respondent considered it to be a gender issue. The moderator then closed the thread.

They don't like offending muslims on the Islam board. Hanging homosexuals, flogging rape victims and so on is fine but we mustn't make the muslims feel bad.

djpbarry

Mick86 wrote: »

Hanging homosexuals, flogging rape victims and so on is fine but we mustn't make the muslims feel bad.

Of course, Christians, enlightened as they are, never get involved in that sort of thing:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/195158.stm

Simi

Ah he never said he was a christian! I just plain despise u all ! But I doubt Irish muslims will be "Hanging homosexuals, flogging rape victims and so on" anytime soon.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

the lord's resistance army in uganda are pretty unashamedly christian, and they rape/beat children and abduct them for use as soldiers

god.

djpbarry

djpbarry wrote: »

Of course, Christians, enlightened as they are, never get involved in that sort of thing:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/195158.stm

Thats an anti Gay mob.What they did was against the law.
There might be a christian country that hangs homosexuals by law for being just that but I don't think there is.
Feel free to post an example up though.

mick86 wrote:

They don't like offending muslims on the Islam board. Hanging homosexuals, flogging rape victims and so on is fine but we mustn't make the muslims feel bad.

I presume you read the charter of the islam board aswell as this one.

pjproby-you would be better off reading both charters again also.
No more using of this forum for the purpose of complaining about another thank ye.

mordeth wrote:

the lord's resistance army in uganda are pretty unashamedly christian, and they rape/beat children and abduct them for use as soldiers

They're far from representing true christianity.
As an atheist might say-arguing over religion is like arguing as to who has the better imaginary friend.
Some extremists use Religion to their own warped ends.
Thats something that Islam and Christianity have in common that true followers of both would rather didn't go on.
Human nature though is a fickle thing.

pjproby

this thread is about rape and the punishment of a victim. all societies blame rape victims-their dress was too short etc etc. what make this different is that in Saudi the legal system is being used to punish the victim. This is surely unique.

djpbarry

Simi wrote: »

Ah he never said he was a christian! I just plain despise u all ! But I doubt Irish muslims will be "Hanging homosexuals, flogging rape victims and so on" anytime soon.

I know he didn't say he was Christian. I was trying to illustrate the fact that his point was a sweeping generalisation, i.e. all Muslims are homophobic, etc.

Tristrame wrote: »

Thats an anti Gay mob.What they did was against the law.
There might be a christian country that hangs homosexuals by law for being just that but I don't think there is.

But not EVERY Muslim country is intolerant of homosexuality (e.g. Indonesia). The point I was trying to make was that judging Islam based on the actions of a (relatively) few homophobic nutters would be no better than judging Christianity based on the actions of the KKK.

biko

pjproby wrote: »

I tried to raise this on the Islam board here and one respondent considered it to be a gender issue. The moderator then closed the thread.
I wonder did it ever dawn on the victim that it was all about gender!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055184435

article wrote:

The woman was initially punished for violating laws on segregation of the sexes

I wonder did it ever dawn on the victim that it was all about gender!

I'm sure the victim has been subjected to male dominance in the name of religion all her life, so yes. Of course, if you can point out anywhere where rape is a religious activity, not a male dominance pattern, that'd be great.

Btw, a question end with a question mark, not an exclamation mark.

moe_sizlak

pjproby wrote: »

I tried to raise this on the Islam board here and one respondent considered it to be a gender issue. The moderator then closed the thread.
I wonder did it ever dawn on the victim that it was all about gender!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055184435

your immiedietly silenced in the muslim forums if you utter even the mildest criticism related to islam or islamic countries , happend me several times , they use the old trick of saying this belongs under another forum in order to fudge the issue , most moderators are crippled by political correctness but in there takes the cake

oscarBravo

The next person to use this forum as a soap box for criticising the moderation of another forum gets a month's ban.

gillyfromlyre

I'd be delighted if 3 strikes were brought in here,maybe for slightly more serious crimes than pizza stealing. Crimes such as assault, burglary etc would do, it would get rid of a lot of the tracksuit wearing rectal minded dickheads from the streets, try see how enlightened the streets are after 12 on a saturday night, but yes, compared to the arabs we are neons ahead on the civilisation scales

djpbarry

gillyfromlyre wrote: »

I'd be delighted if 3 strikes were brought in here,maybe for slightly more serious crimes than pizza stealing. Crimes such as assault, burglary etc would do, it would get rid of a lot of the tracksuit wearing rectal minded dickheads from the streets, try see how enlightened the streets are after 12 on a saturday night, but yes, compared to the arabs we are neons ahead on the civilisation scales

A hugely contradictory post if ever the was one. If we are "neons ahead" (I’m not sure what neons are) of "Arabs" (or anyone else for that matter) on the "civilisation scale", then why do we need to introduce a "3 strikes" initiative? Seeing as how we're so civil and all?

gillyfromlyre

I'd have a single strike for arabs, because the crime there would probably be totally mindless, like beheading a girl for looking at a car mirror and 3 strikes here, we may be uncivilised here but compared to saudi we live in paradise, no contradiction at all, buy a dictionary

pjproby

oscar bravo- yours is very interesting contribution to this thread - in case you missed it, there is a woman facing the lash for being gang banged (in the wrong company)
lets keep the mods happy
you have lost your sense of outrage!