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Saudi Arabia in the dark ages

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    #32
    Mick86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 982 ✭✭✭Mick86


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Of course, Christians, enlightened as they are, never get involved in that sort of thing:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/195158.stm

    Of course. But it's OK to make Christians feel bad.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    I know he didn't say he was Christian. I was trying to illustrate the fact that his point was a sweeping generalisation, i.e. all Muslims are homophobic, etc.

    I didn't say all Muslims were homophobic. My dig was at the Islam board for shutting down a thread that makes them uncomfortable.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    But not EVERY Muslim country is intolerant of homosexuality (e.g. Indonesia). The point I was trying to make was that judging Islam based on the actions of a (relatively) few homophobic nutters would be no better than judging Christianity based on the actions of the KKK.

    I have little respect for Christianity either, if it's any consolation to you.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    ...If we are "neons ahead" (I’m not sure what neons are) of "Arabs" (or anyone else for that matter) on the "civilisation scale", then why do we need to introduce a "3 strikes" initiative? Seeing as how we're so civil and all?

    Depends on how you define civilisation.

    My definition is a society which is protected from criminals rather than the reverse.


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    #33
    Mick86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 982 ✭✭✭Mick86


    moe_sizlak wrote: »
    your immiedietly silenced in the muslim forums if you utter even the mildest criticism related to islam or islamic countries , happend me several times , they use the old trick of saying this belongs under another forum in order to fudge the issue , most moderators are crippled by political correctness but in there takes the cake

    Seconded.


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    #34
    Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,556 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    yes, it's a forum for discussion of religion. if you want to discuss the political implications of that religion, or jump down the throats of the anti-pork fetishists.. you're either going to have to do it on the politics, humanities or vegetarian forum.
    we don't go onto the christian forum to discuss the political ramifications of the neo-con's and the christian right in america, we have politics for that.


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    #35
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Mick86 wrote: »
    Of course. But it's OK to make Christians feel bad.
    You see that's the problem right there. We are not talking Islam in general; we are talking about an incident that occurred in one particular country. Likewise, it would be unfair to criticise the entire Christian world for a hate-crime that takes place in the southern US.
    Mick86 wrote: »
    I have little respect for Christianity either, if it's any consolation to you.
    No consolation to me – I’m agnostic :D.
    Mick86 wrote: »
    Depends on how you define civilisation.
    Fair point.
    Mick86 wrote: »
    My definition is a society which is protected from criminals rather than the reverse.
    I’m sure I have made it clear by now that I believe the Saudi Monarchy to be evil incarnate.


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    #36
    Mick86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 982 ✭✭✭Mick86


    Mordeth wrote: »
    yes, it's a forum for discussion of religion. if you want to discuss the political implications of that religion, or jump down the throats of the anti-pork fetishists.. you're either going to have to do it on the politics, humanities or vegetarian forum.
    we don't go onto the christian forum to discuss the political ramifications of the neo-con's and the christian right in america, we have politics for that.

    That's because as a Christian (if only in cultural terms), Western Liberal you divide religion from your political, culinary :D and everyday life. Islam defines the political, culinary and everyday life of it's followers.

    If Bertie Ahern decided in the morning that it was the will of God that anyone with ten penalty points on their licence be incarcerated for a year without parole, then that is a religious matter belonging in the Christian forum. Similarly since Saudi Arabia flogs it's women, and worse, citing the will of Allah as sole justification, then it isn't political but religious.


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    #37
    Mick86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 982 ✭✭✭Mick86


    djpbarry wrote: »
    You see that's the problem right there. We are not talking Islam in general; we are talking about an incident that occurred in one particular country. Likewise, it would be unfair to criticise the entire Christian world for a hate-crime that takes place in the southern US.

    I didn't criticise Islam in general.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    I’m sure I have made it clear by now that I believe the Saudi Monarchy to be evil incarnate.

    I was actually talking about Ireland there.


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    #38
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Mick86 wrote: »
    That's because as a Christian (if only in cultural terms), Western Liberal you divide religion from your political, culinary :D and everyday life.
    Not sure about that - the church still has a lot of influence in this country.
    Mick86 wrote: »
    Similarly since Saudi Arabia flogs it's women, and worse, citing the will of Allah as sole justification, then it isn't political but religious.
    I would say it is a combination of the two. The Saudi monarchy is using a warped interpretation of religion to justify human rights abuses.


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    #39
    Mick86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 982 ✭✭✭Mick86


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Not sure about that - the church still has a lot of influence in this country.

    Nothing compared to what it once had. Anyway I was talking of the individual. The vast majority, if they practice religion at all, do so on Sunday and forget about it for the rest of the week.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    The Saudi monarchy is using a warped interpretation of religion to justify human rights abuses.

    If the House of Saud was no more the same excesses would continue. You can pull similar stories from many Islamic countries. It's a combination of religion and pre-medieval cultural practices.


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    #40
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Mick86 wrote: »
    Nothing compared to what it once had.
    Maybe, but whether you like it or not, the church still has an influence in our daily lives. For example, most parents have little choice but to send their children to a Catholic school.
    Mick86 wrote: »
    If the House of Saud was no more the same excesses would continue.
    Who is to say what would happen in Saudi Arabia if the monarchy was "removed"? It is possible things could get worse before they got better (difficult to imagine for women), but without oil (which has to run out eventually) and without US support, the authoritarian regime would struggle to maintain the status quo.
    Mick86 wrote: »
    You can pull similar stories from many Islamic countries.
    The only Muslim countries that come close to Saudi Arabia in terms of human rights abuses are Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Libya, although in the case of the latter religion has little to do with these abuses. In fact, I estimate that the majority of authoritarian states in the world are non-Muslim.
    Mick86 wrote: »
    It's a combination of religion and pre-medieval cultural practices.
    Yes and no. I would say the Saudi monarchy uses religion as a pretext to do whatever the hell they want.


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    #41
    You Suck!
    Registered Users Posts: 446 ✭✭You Suck!


    yes, it's a forum for discussion of religion. if you want to discuss the political implications of that religion, or jump down the throats of the anti-pork fetishists.. you're either going to have to do it on the politics, humanities or vegetarian forum.
    we don't go onto the christian forum to discuss the political ramifications of the neo-con's and the christian right in america, we have politics for that.

    Sharia is an Islamic intrument and as such belivers of Islam should awnser for it's implementation. But.....I notice a high density of mods congregating in this thread and as such sense a gathering of the white blood cells :rolleyes:

    Fine, If that's to be the Islam forums reponse so be it and it is noted on mine and others opinions of the religion in general. All religions suck ass, Just I thought in this day and age after Irish experiance with the catholic churchs abuses we would be beyond the point of blissfull ignorance.......guess I was wrong.


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    #42
    InFront
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭InFront


    There's nothing to be said on the subject of moderating the Islam forum beyond what was said, I think pretty clearly, in the closed Saudi thread
    .
    You Suck! wrote: »
    Sharia is an Islamic intrument and as such belivers of Islam should awnser for it's implementation.
    By everybody? Do you know how many Sharia'h judges and advocates and Governments there are? You're saying every Muslim should be responsible for their arbitrary opinions of Islamic jurisprudence in every case?

    None of them are infallible, nobody anywhere is making a good example of Shariah, and it is not the case that regular Muslims should be answerable for individual rulings in foreign countries we know little about, rulings which often have little to do with Islam anyway.


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    #43
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Well you do see a lot about how these laws about modesty are detremental to women but they are also detremental do men and give the message that they can not control themselves, that they are too driven by lust and are not strong enough to resist temptation.


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    #44
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Mick86 is banned for a month. I didn't think I'd been unclear.

    pjproby, believe it or not, I am capable of separating my sense of outrage at the inhumanity of the situation under discussion from my role as moderator of this forum. If I decided that the rules could be waived every time someone was outraged about something, I might as well delete the charter.

    Future off-topic posts will be deleted and will result in infractions.


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    #45
    gillyfromlyre
    Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭gillyfromlyre


    djpbarry wrote: »
    The only Muslim countries that come close to Saudi Arabia in terms of human rights abuses are Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Libya, although in the case of the latter religion has little to do with these abuses. In fact, I estimate that the majority of authoritarian states in the world are non-Muslim

    The only muslim countries, thats all, its grand, you make it sound as if every muslim country is totally different, some muslim countries are totally liberal i suppose, just like you, do you realise you are sticking up for this and countless more sick crimes commited by "non authoritarian" muslim states? There is no state boundary when it comes to horrible crimes in the name of islam, look at england, holland, denmark etc and the amount of women suffering there, I'd love to send you to one of your liberal muslim countries, you'd be first against the wall sunshine.


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    #46
    pjproby
    Registered Users Posts: 842 ✭✭✭pjproby


    djpbarrry- yours are truly interesting posts, i would find them even more interesting if you condemned the particular injustice we are discussing here.
    in all your contributions so far you have failed to do so.

    oscar bravo- my apologies for the personal nature of my last post- they were unjustified and uncalled for.


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    #47
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    gillyfromlyre wrote: »
    you make it sound as if every muslim country is totally different
    Yes, they are.
    gillyfromlyre wrote: »
    do you realise you are sticking up for this and countless more sick crimes commited by "non authoritarian" muslim states?
    Excuse you, but I have never "stood up" for any crime.
    gillyfromlyre wrote: »
    There is no state boundary when it comes to horrible crimes in the name of islam, look at england, holland, denmark etc and the amount of women suffering there
    Haven't got a clue what you're talking about here. Not sure what this has to do with Saudi Arabia.
    gillyfromlyre wrote: »
    I'd love to send you to one of your liberal muslim countries, you'd be first against the wall sunshine.
    I've been to 3. Had a lovely time, thanks for asking.
    pjproby wrote: »
    i would find them even more interesting if you condemned the particular injustice we are discussing here.
    in all your contributions so far you have failed to do so.
    I would have thought I was making myself quite clear here:
    djpbarry wrote: »
    I’m sure I have made it clear by now that I believe the Saudi Monarchy to be evil incarnate.


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    #48
    You Suck!
    Registered Users Posts: 446 ✭✭You Suck!


    InFront wrote: »

    By everybody? Do you know how many Sharia'h judges and advocates and Governments there are? You're saying every Muslim should be responsible for their arbitrary opinions of Islamic jurisprudence in every case?

    None of them are infallible, nobody anywhere is making a good example of Shariah, and it is not the case that regular Muslims should be answerable for individual rulings in foreign countries we know little about, rulings which often have little to do with Islam anyway.

    Im well aware of how decentralized Islam is, in fact Im fascinated both centalised and decentralized religions end up with the same problems.

    None the less, Im not saying that individual Muslims should be held accountable, However I do expect them to have the honesty to discuss such issues that relate to their religion!

    [mod edit: I've removed references to the Islam forum, as indicated earlier.]

    P.S. As an addendum, Im well aware that all religions share these problems, just that if believers of all faiths see themselves as honest, then they should be willing to deal with the issue in public, and that if they truely see themselves as faithful should have no insecuritys in doing so!.


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    #49
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Perhaps I was unclear earlier.

    The next person to complain about the Islam forum on this thread will receive a permanent ban.

    Back. On. Topic.


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    #50
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055188354


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