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Vrt
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16-11-2007 10:33am#1
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Right, firstly no abuse please.........in the budget they will end VRT.
(Before you ask, yes its a friend of a friend one, but I know said friends friend and where they work etc, and they are in the right place to be able to comment.)
I don't mind what it's replaced with, so long as it ceases to function, in effect, as an import tax - i.e. free (or close enough, e.g. nominal admin fee like UK or France) to register an import on IE plates, just pay more at pump or a new "carbon tax" windscreen disc or...
And the pill can be made sweeter for existing owners of VRT'd cars, for instance with a sliding rebate applicable to any car VRT'd before date xx/xx/08 = equality for all (or as close as dammit) and revenue neutrality
(actually, as I have posted before, I think revenue would increase with the tax-@-pump option... but what do I know, not being an economist or politician
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.......yes but my point remains, ie. you will benefit IF you are changing your cars but anybody who does not intend to buy a new or nearly new car will loose out !
If I read the situation/proposal/tea leaves (:D) right, you won't 'benefit' as such in either case:
Anybody who does not intend to change car, will pay a bit more on account of carbon emissions/green thingymajjig
Anybody who changes car, will not pay VRT but this deficit will be offset by paying proportionately more of the same 'a bit more' on account of carbon emissions/green thingymajjig
When you think about, in order for the proposal to balance out and achieve at least neutrality on the GVT's take-home pay, the punctual cash injection brought by VRT when a car is new/imported must be replaced and to achieve fairness (well... you understand what I mean - let's call it 'prevention of public outrage'): assuming VRT is replaced with 'green tax', little more green tax for those who have already paid VRT, lot more green tax for those who have not, so noone feels hard done-by (...or as usual, everybody feels hard-done by 
).
Eventually, as the park of VRT'd cars in IE dwindles to nothing (let's say 10 years as alluded to in thread above), everybody's on non-VRT'd + fully-green-tax'd cars. Transition done.0 -
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Remember folks, you heard it here first!
Not that I'm doubting you, i'd be delighted to be rid of this tax. Weren't they talking about linking the vrt to emissions? If they are then they are hardly getting rid of it?
If it does go I'll be on the first ryanair flight to london to go shopping in cargiant.
Fingers crossed!0 -
And how exactly would it be done in order to ensure that drivers who buy second hand are not a*s raped by the new green tax?
With a sliding scale and a cut-off date, as previously posted.
Example, assuming same car/age of car, in any given year until the 'old car' is eventually scrapped :
Road Tax for car reg'd before 01/01/08 is 50% of €X (% taking Co2 into account, and VRT already paid)
Road Tax for car reg'd after 01/01/08 is €X (% taking Co2 into account)
The short-term effect appears to encourage retention of potentially more-polluting second-hand cars, but medium-term people would realise it's a false economy (as car getting older = more €s to keep on road and expectedly lower MPG than more ecent cars) whereby opt to change for new or more recent second-hand, which balances out.At the end of the day, it means that people who buy second hand will be helping to fund those who financially castrate themselves every year or so with a new car. Cos VRT or not, the govt will still want the money. And you know they won't do it right, they'll make sure they end up making at least 10% more than they used to through VRT.
To be fair, buying a new car every year is a personal choice. Paying VRT is not.And that's not fair on those of us who buy second hand. Pay@pump is equally stupid for VRT. Road tax through the pumps would sort out all this green rubbish
My second hand car has had the VRT paid already. Why should I have to pay again for green tax? Just to offset the slide in VRT income??
I should expect a green tax is coming in whether the public likes it or not (because it's EU-mandated/-imposed), which will be applicable to both new and second-hand cars (it is in most other EU countries). Nothing to do with VRT or Road Tax.the fairest way to do it is to keep VRT on new cars (Irish people are stupid enough to buy new) and put the road tax onto the pumps. Drive a big car with loadsa mileage = loadsa tax, small car with loadsa mileage = smaller tax, small car no mileage = FA tax, big car low mileage = slightly more tax
Doesn't that system sound fair???
Save as to the VRT bit, of course it does.
It's simple.
It's 100% sure to generate tons more revenue from the off.
Assuming VRT is drastically reduced and partially offset by it, it removes all off the VRT enforcement requirements, all of the civil service infrastructure required to run it = reduction in cost of VRT-dedicated resources (known as a virtuous circle)
It actually does encourgae people to rethink their driving habits/drive less/benefit the environment from the off.
= It's ideal...
...which is precisely why it won't happen 0 -
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HAHAHA, you really think so?? you can't possibly be that naive! The government, Fianna Fáil, fair?? I'm practically wetting myself with mirth.
You know new cars are very bad value, you know you'll lose thousands every year. And with respect, your decisions are not my problem, and I refuse to be held liable for the rest of the new car buyer's decisions.
This my opinion/proposal. Whatever eventually happens is whatever eventually happens. Oh... and very sorry that your government has made you become so cynical
We're talking about VRT. It applies equally to new IE cars, imported new cars and imported second-hand cars. So I'm not fully with you there. And what decisions of mine are those to which you refer, pray tell?Yes of course, but the road tax must be linked both to emissions and mileage. The only way to do this is to introduce tax onto the petrol, incorporating the road tax. If you drive a larger, heavier vehicle (say, 3.5 L) for, say 20k miles a year you will pay more tax than a 2.0 L doing the same.
This will also ensure that those who have large engined cars and drive very little will not be screwed over with tax, while the little fiesta doing 20k miles a year only pays 270 euros tax. This current situation is insane.
VRT and green tax are not interchangeable and shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence, they're completely different ideas. Green tax and road tax are related, in that road tax is paid based on engine displacement, irrespective of mileage and driving style. A stupid system which we can no longer afford to use.
VRT is completely unrelated. And second hand buyers have no responsibility in this matter. We refuse to pay it. We don't mind green tax on petrol. But not VRT, that's not our problem.
Pure greed, that's all this VRT system will be if changed to green tax. Its completely and utterly unrelated.
We're absolutely not in disagreement there
However, to my mind, VRT is related because it is specifically levied on a motor vehicle, along with any other motor vehicle levies. It's currently part and parcel of car ownership in Ireland, so to be factored into costs of ownership to the same title as road tax and any other new or alternative tax, green-inspired or otherwise.
In terms of legality, perhaps VRT currently escapes more EC scrutiny because it isn't labelled as an import tax. The fact of the matter remains that a distinction is made between residents (EU-Irish citizens) and non-residents (EU-whatever citizens) who become residents (ref. the 6 months overseas ownership rule) - to my mind this distinction is, paradoxically, exactly what translates the VRT as an import tax: a distinction is operated between EU citizens as to their liability for payment of VRT solely to (IMHO) ensure that the GVT toes the EU "free movement of EU citizens and their belongings" overarching principle.
But you see, at the end of the end I'm not so naive as to think the GVT would ever scrap the VRT revenue. Which is why I'm thinking of alternatives, not merely outright removal of it - for that, I agree, won't happen 0 -
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I meant the payment of VRT, whether on new cars, imports or other. That's up to you, so you foot the bill. The second hand car buyers who do not have to pay VRT at present should not be subjected to the new green tax if it is just a replacement of VRT.We would be, in effect, paying for your second hand import, or brand new car. That is what I think is unfair.
Of course. That is not in contention.
My premise was, per the OP, that 'in the budget they will end VRT' (whereby per my previous posts, of course they're going to replace it with something else).
My premise was also, however, that 'the' green tax soon to be introduced would also extend to motor tax (per your suggestion of pay-@-pump, which I fully endorse), which is currently distinct from VRT. That's assuming the GVT tries to uses this 'green tax' for something more than mere € collection, such as currently with VRT.... something more... I don't know... like trying to change people's driving habits and car choices, translating into environmental goodness down the line... (Yeah, I know... mirth away maoleary)
AFAIK, there has not yet been any clear-cut indication (i) what that green tax would be, (ii) what it would replace (for we keep hearing snippets about it replacing the VRT, or replacing motor tax, or...) and (iii) whether it would actually replace anything or be a new standalone tax.
If the 'new green tax' indeed turns out to be a mere reworking of the existing and applicable VRT scales (e.g. 2,0L 2007 VRT € + 10% in 2008), then that's the end of that, of course. Which would actually be a bit dumb and one-dimensional, because once the VRT pill is swallowed at buying time (such as currently), then what's to stop or influence people to pollute any less...
Maybe I'm guilty of "unilateral" thinking: of course, nothing precludes two ro more 'distinct' green taxes - VRT based on emissions and pay-@-pump That way is balanced, too. 0 -
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