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Best In The World?
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15-11-2007 11:22pm#1
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Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »LMAO. Thanks I needed cheering up. Shouldn't posts like this go in the humour section though?
*Shrugs shoulders*.
Its an opinion man. If you don't agree thats fair enough, you don't have to come across as such an asshole though whenever you make a point. The funny thing is your arguments usually stand up on their own but the bad attitude makes you look like your on a constant wind up.
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*Shrugs shoulders*.
Its an opinion man. If you don't agree thats fair enough, you don't have to come across as such an asshole though whenever you make a point. The funny thing is your arguments usually stand up on their own but the bad attitude makes you look like your on a constant wind up.
Wow someone's in a bad mood today. I don't see anything wrong with my attitude. ROH fans like you need to get off your high horse and realise that it's OK to criticise the guy you treat as a messiah. My opinion happens to be that your opinion is farcical.
Danielson is a bore and being of that view has nothing to do with being into "sports entertainment" but rather being into enjoyable wrestling.
He has proven nothing until he gets to WWE and reaches the big time. You don't give the world player of the year award in football to some guy in the Eircom League because it's not a good enough level to showcase talent.
To say Danielson deserves to be regarded as the best wrestler of 2007 ahead of Shawn Michaels is almost as ridiculous as saying Mistico deserved to be placed ahead of Edge last year. Utter smark nonsense.0 -
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I've seen you use a lower level football analogy before, whether you said Eircom League or not i dunno. I'm not sure I agree about ROH being a lower level. Like, soccer is a competitive sport so yes, Champions League will obviously be a different standard of class and quality to Eircom. Pro wrestling however is staged, so whether you wrestle in front of 1000 or 10000 its all about the match you come up with your opponent and the quality of the entertainment you can create. In soccer the be all and end all is the result, way different kettle of fish. I'm sure the players couldn't give a **** about the entertainment value of the game. A more apt comparison would be music. The bands like Westlife who litter the top of the charts are hardly the most talented musicians oin the world, yanno.(or maybe you do think so, each to their own!)
ROH is lower level compared to WWE. That's my point. Please don't tell me you disagree with that?
And you missed the point I was making about soccer. In soccer, in the Eircom League, you could have a young starlet come along and light up the division but if people were to proclaim him the best in the world then you couldn't take such claims seriously. Why? Because the player hasn't showed his stuff on the big stage - Champions League, World Cup etc. CM Punk was once also lauded as the best in the world but he went to WWE and we found out he certainly wasn't. I believe the same would happen to Danielson. Do you think differently?flahavaj wrote:You obviously see WWE as the pinnacle and see it as a slight on Dragon as a wrestler that he hasn't been signed by WWE. Should we therefore choose only WWE wrestlers in these end of year awards? Should we rule out all Puro workers, everyone from lucha and all indys because they're not at the "high level" of WWE? So basically anyone Vince McMahon doesn't care for can't be included? Is he always right? Do you think that everyone he HAS signed is an incredible talent or is it possible that he sometimes gets it wrong?
I'm not saying you discount lower level workers, I'm saying you acknowledge that they are just that - lower level. Those who put on stellar performances at the HIGHEST LEVEL should get more credit in the same way Ronaldinho and Messi should get the highest credit for performing well in the highest levels of sport. Hollywood actors should be the ones winning Academy Awards and not my college drama society. Why? Because it's a higher level there. And so on...flahavaj wrote:I mean by your logic the Miz and Khali are better workers because of the high level they're performing at and thats beyond ridiculous.
No, that is not my logic. You don't seem to understand my viewpoint. I'm saying acknowledge the difference between putting on a tremendous display in a bingo hall or small arena compared with putting on a tremendous display on a live PPV watched by millions worldwide. You don't seem to see a difference. I do.flahavaj wrote:I guess what I'm trying to say is that you have to judge a wrestler on the work he has done in the companies he has been given the opportunity to perform. Its not like soccer where a string of good results gets you promoted to a higher division, its a much more comlplicated business where some people get breaks for reasons like size or charisma or just being in the right place at the right time. Danielson is a junior pure and simple. He would be a cruiserweight at best in WWE. This doesn't stop him being an incredible wrestler and in mine and the opinion of many others, the best in-ring worker on the planet. I think the body of matches he has put on surpasses those of anyone else. Thats not to say that Michaels hasn't been absolutely incredible either mind you, he must be a close second.
Second my hole. Michaels is streets ahead of anybody this year. Even with a bad knee he can get the job done. This by the way is the same Michaels who trained Danielson so I have to laugh at your belief that the student (who has yet to make it to the top wrestling company in the world) has now surpassed the master (who is a legend in the top wrestling company in the world). Think about what you're saying, please. I mean do you not see how ridiculous it is to say that Michaels - who has stolen the show on high profile matches watched by millions - is a "close second" to a guy who is known to maybe 5% of wrestling fans? I really can't fathom your line of thinking. Fair enough you are a fan of Danielson but keep some perspective!flahavaj wrote:As for Punk, I think considering he's barely been in the company a year and a half, he's doing great. I was never a huge fan of his in ring work, more of his charisma and if he's given a chance to turn heel and show off his mic skills he WILL be HUGE i guarantee it. He's barely been pinned cleanly on TV in that time so obviously Vince sees something in the guy and we know how highly you value his opinion, eh?
I myself like Punk but I never bought into the hype that ROH fans spewed out about him. He hasn't had one stellar match in WWE despite numerous appearances. So much for him being one of the best in the world. He was the victim of hype that was OTT.flahavaj wrote:Maybe being a Danielson fan makes me "excitable" but you know what, he does make me excited to be a pro wrestling fan when I see what talent he has and how good he could possibly become. He's innovative, constantly changing and adapting his persona and style and keeps churning out those MOTYC's.
It seems to me like the guy could come out to the ring and do a stretching exercise and ROH fans would call it a MOTYC! You watch Shawn Michaels at Survivor Series because, despite his dodgy knee, he will get the fans involved and prove why he is the best around. Not like at an ROH show where the fans are going ape-sh*t before the bell even rings and calling it a five star match just because Danielson does a flip to the outside.
My basic point is, give more respect to those who do their stuff well on a grander stage - HBK, Orton, Cena, Edge etc. instead of those who are doing it at an inferior level - Danielson, Mistico, Kenta etc.
If Danielson's as good as everyone says, let him go to WWE as Punk and Cabana have done and let him prove it. Maybe he can't though? Is it that he wants to remain a big fish in a little pond?0 -
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First off, that award that Mistico won last year was for the wrestler who was the most important to their promotion, not the best wrestler. I don't think you can argue against Mistico being more important to CMLL than any other wrestler was to their promotion. CMLL started selling out every arena they went to because of the guy. Attendances would go down when he wasn't on the card. When he got injured attendances went down. When he returned attendances went up. When he had the big mask vs mask match with Black Warrior they charged fans way more than usual and the place still sold out. So Mistico winning an award is completely beside the point here, I've explained that before.
I don't think you can argue that establishing yourself on the top wrestling promotion on the planet is a far bigger achievement than doing it in an organisation nowhere near that level. It was an absolute farce.Fozzy wrote:I believe that the football analogy is flawed. I'm judging footballers and wrestlers on talent solely here, not look or size. The top football teams with the most money will always want to sign the footballers with the most talent. Smaller teams that don't have as much money have to settle for lesser talented players.
The football analogy is not flawed. When choosing the best player in the world would you choose people performing at the highest level or not? It's easy to impress a couple of hundred people in an inferior league but a different thing entirely to do it when playing in front of massive audiences.Fozzy wrote:A great footballer in the lower leagues has to work against inferior opponents, whereas a great wrestler on the indy scene would be working with inferior opponents. The comparisons don't stand up. Like flahavaj said, the industry that you could draw the most comparison to is the music industry. The film industry and the sporting industry are all based on the people with the most talent getting to the top. The music industry isn't, same as the wrestling industry isn't.
I don't agree at all. Being on the indy scene it's hard to know who is a "great wrestler". You can be impressed by someone's singing in a church choir but that doesn't mean they're comparable to people like Rihanna, Nelly Furtado or any of the top singers. You can be impressed by an actor in a local play but it doesn't make him the next Tom Cruise. Likewise you can be impressed by Bryan Danielson in ROH, or SOS in IWW, but until they make it to the big time you can't seriously compare them to Shawn Michaels.Fozzy wrote:I'm just interested Mr.Nice Guy, if you had seen Eddie Guerrero or Chris Benoit wrestle prior to signing with WCW, or even ECW, and they had a great match, would you have been of the opinion that they hadn't proven themselves yet? What about one of the great matches Eddie had after he'd been released by WWE and already proven himself (if you saw any), would you think that those matches are great because he'd proven himself?
I would think the matches were great. That is not the issue though. The issue is whether I would then label Guerrero or Benoit at that point in time as being the "best in the world" - which is quite a claim - and no I would not have placed them above guys like Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels, at that point in time at least.Fozzy wrote:On the topic of Punk being "the best in the world", I'm assuming you mean people calling him the best in the world on in-ring ability, since that's what we're talking about with Danielson. If that's the case, then I don't think very many people were calling him the best in the world before he signed with WWE. The most entertaining, absolutely. I still consider him to be the most entertaining wrestler that I've seen in the last 5 years and most of that is down to his mic work and making you give a damn about his character. He was also helped by some awesome angles. So it's no surprise to me that he hasn't set the world alight in WWE, given that his mic work and the great angles have been taken from him. He's still a very good wrestler though, but I don't think that's what people were hyping up about him.
Oh I can recall him being hyped up just as much. "Wow Meltzer gave him 5 stars he's definitely the best!" Same hype, same exaggeration.Fozzy wrote:I'm curious on your answer to this Mr.Nice Guy, because I don't really understand where you're coming from. Let's say that some guy is born with the talent of Shawn Michaels, or Bret Hart, or whoever you think is the best wrestler ever. And let's say that this guy is Japanese or a midget or skinny, that is, they're not going to get signed by WWE. What if this guy is putting on the same high-quality matches that he'd be having in WWE if he had the look they wanted, but he's putting on these matches for indy promotions. The exact same matches. Which would mean that he's having these awesome matches with other indy guys rather than the top guys in WWE (less talented guys in your mind, which would make this hypothetical wrestler even more talented). What if I came on the forum here and said "wow, Johnny Japanese Jones just had another awesome match with Indy Joe", would you feel right to say that this guy, who is the most talented wrestler in the world, can't be called great because he hasn't had those matches in WWE? Even though he would be having those matches if he had the body of Randy Orton
What I'm saying is the cream rises to the top. And using your analogy, why wouldn't this person get signed? Rey Mysterio made it despite his size limitations because he was exceptional. Finlay is doing it week after week despite his health issues and age because he's exceptional. The exceptional talent will be given a chance. Your analogy doesn't hold up because from what I've heard, Danielson could have a job in WWE tomorrow if he wanted it thanks to his connections with Michaels and Regal. Why doesn't he want to make the step up? Punk did. Cabana did. Maybe he doesn't have the guts.Fozzy wrote:I really don't think the money issue bothers Danielson at all. He makes more than a lower card WWE guy that isn't on PPVs. He doesn't have an huge ego, he's said in interviews how he enjoys being able to walk around without more people recognising him. He's also said that he prefers the relationship that he has with Gabe in ROH than the inevitable politicking that he'd end up doing in WWE to get to the top
Come on that's a cop out. Punk is a master at politicking then is he? Is that why he's the ECW champion? Danielson would be going in with Michaels' recommendation so he'd hardly be in a bad situation. Far from it, actually. If he's good enough he'll make it. I don't think he is though.gimmick wrote:This thread is about match of the year 2007, not about peoples tastes. I didn't ridicule anyone elses lists, so i find it rather offensive that othe rpeople feel the need to belittle others tastes in order to make themselves look good. I know its a wind up, but still. You can be banned in the 'soccer' forum for constant wind ups.
Oh someone inform Children in Need of poor gimmick's agony! (By the way that was a joke too gimmick. Please don't ask for me to be banned!
)
You must have missed the fact that I didn't actually take issue with "lists" but rather the view that Danielson was, quote:
"absolutely and undoubtedly the finest wrestler anywhere in the world right now"
If you make a comment like that you can expect to have to defend it. There was nothing wrong with what I said. People can call me an asshole and nothing gets said about it yet I make a joke and suddenly it's time for a ban. Pathetic really.
You can agree with flahavaj's view and that's OK. I disagree and suddenly I'm going off-topic. Again, that's pathetic.Double C wrote:ROH fans hype the bejesus out of Danielson the same was as MNG hypes Cena. He had Cena vs Lashley down as one of his matches of the year. It was a good example of Cena carrying a poor opponent to a decent match, but one of the best of the year? Better than Danielson vs McGuinness? I don't see it.
I don't hype the bejesus out of Cena, I give him credit where it's due. That match with Lashley was widely praised and rightfully so. It told a good story unlike the Danielson/McGuinness match which was two guys going through the motions (though I would blame that on McGuinness moreso than Danielson) before a bunch of lunatics.
The fact is if Danielson got to WWE he'd need to improve a lot to make it to the top level. It's a step up in class. The same goes for a young football, acting, or musical talent looking to make it on the big stage of these respective industries.0 -
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pretty impressive alrite, having met lance storm he ain't a small guy
Khali is the first big guy since andre to bring that wow factor, probably because he is so well built for his height and not fat or really skinny as is normally the case with those types of guys
Vince is also very shrewd, he now has a man whom he can sell to a market with over 1 billion+ people living in it. I uploaded a khali match to youtube and the indians posting their comments and PMing me think he is the best thing since sliced bread :eek:0 -
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