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If heaven exsits
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I mean, would you like to be specific? I.E. Ask a specific question.Yes, please do.I'm clearly in need of enlightenment. Maybe I'm just not indwelt with the Holy Spirit?
I never said I was indwelt with Holy Spirit, if thats what you think I said
Apart from that though, I'm detecting sarcasm. If you are being sarcastic in such a manner, it kind of undermines your 'blessings' at the end of your posts. If you are not being sarcastic, then I would agree that you are in need of enlightenment, as am I. You need to strip what you know (or think you know), down to this.
1. God is our creator.
2. Jesus is his Son who was impaled and was raised up in 3 days.
3. I have Faith in God and in his Son.
So there you go, if you were not being sarcastic, then I've given you a starting point that is working for me. Look into getting a well translated bible and cross reference with other translations if needs be, and take it from there. Pray for enlightenment and help. Meditate on the things you're not sure about. Reason with others, but be careful they don't direct you too much. Find out if there are any spurious origins for cetain doctrines etc etc.0 -
Actually, I misread your post. I apologise for being sarcastic.I mean, would you like to be specific? I.E. Ask a specific question.
I never said I was indwelt with Holy Spirit, if thats what you think I said
Apart from that though, I'm detecting sarcasm. If you are being sarcastic in such a manner, it kind of undermines your 'blessings' at the end of your posts.
I thought you said "would you like me to get specific?". I'm just so used to you attacking the CC. It was a knee jerk reaction.
My specific question is what makes you right on the question of the immortality of the soul?
And why therefore am I wrong?
God bless,
Noel.0 -
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thats my point. There is no hell, or immortal soul.
Maybe you forgot my first post here. Hell is not a dwelling for demons etc. It is the grave. It signifies death. Why is fire used when talking about it? because fire was seen as final. Gahenna (one of the words translated hell) was a place outside the city where waste was burned. A fire that never went out. Using this word symbolised final destruction.
No, here is a line which appears to support you. However, cross referencing the greek words here, you will find that it actually translates 'These shall go away into age-long pruning'.
Jimi, it's hard to know where to start. You're post is just incredible.
Why in God's name to you think Jesus refers to Hell numerous times if it's doesn't exist????? Sorry, but you're not making a whole lot of sense. And then you go calling my beliefs into question!!!???
You can't ignore all the negative effects of sin and hope they goes away!
Seriously, I'm astounded.
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Why in God's name to you think Jesus refers to Hell numerous times if it's doesn't exist?????
Please be specific, and I'll try my best to answer you. I've never said that 'hell' (such a bad translation) didn't exist. i said your concept of hell as a place of literal fiery torment where the wicked are tortured for eternity didn't exist. Read over my posts again. If you want clarity of my view that is.Sorry, but you're not making a whole lot of sense. And then you go calling my beliefs into question!!!???
Noel, Noel, Noel. You'd swear i was just pulling things out of my backside the way you go on. Instead of such comments, how about you be specific, and try reason things through.
Where do you get this from? I never said I ignored anything. In fact i have categorically stated that I do what i can to be informed. 'The wages of sin is death'. There is one big consequence right there. Maybe if you actually try reason the point rather than shooting your mouth off, you'd grasp it better. Would you prefer to see people suffer for eternity for no other purpose but to suffer?You can't ignore all the negative effects of sin and hope they goes away!
Judging by your complete inability to understand or even remember my postings, I'm not surprised your astounded.Seriously, I'm astounded.0 -
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BrianCalgary wrote: »Hell is called the 'second death' (rev 20 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.). Existence in Hell is anything but 'life'.
So what is it then? do you believe in the immortal soul? if it is immortal, then it is life, or would you like to offer a different definition of life, death and immortality? Do you believe that hell is a place of fiery torment? Where people will be concious, feel pain, gnash their teeth and weep. Forever?That is what the Bible says. It is what Jesus said. Interesting that you have failed to counter this with any scripture?
On the contrary, i have provided both scripture, John in Revelation, and also what appears to be bad translation of greek. But at the moment, thats not of great importance, I'm trying to establish the nature of your god.Punish so that they may learn. God does the same with us. My oldest is now 18, away at university, making her own decisions. If she decides to become a drug addicted hooker, there isn't much I can do about it, except always let her know that she can come home. But it ultimately comes down to her decision.
I agree.
God does the same with us, we are ultimately responsible for our own choice. With God we can always 'come home'. But if we choose not to..well?
We'll suffer endlessly in fiery torment? So i'll ask you a question that Noel declined to answer. If your daughter became a mass murderer, child molester and all the other wicked things you could think of. Would you torture her 'forever', for no other reason but to have her suffer?
No, but they should be put away to serve their time for their transgression.
Why not torture them?This doctrine comes from the lips of our Lord.
Probably not a rejection. As long as what they say is consistent with scripture we will recognise them for who they are. A sheep always recognises the shepherds voice.
Glad to hear it.I have known for quite a while that we don't worship the same God jimitime. My is a triune God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The Son who was crucified.
grand, that clears that up.and claim that he was impaled on an impaling stick.
ey? Where did that come from? he was impaled. are you saying he wasn't?
It smacks of Jehovah Witness theology. Fine people that they are, they worship a false god.
i don't care if it smacks of jw theology, is that relevant? Are you trying to say that to belittle my position somehow? It also smacks of Messianic Jews, and probably plenty of others. Whats your point? that I'm a jw? Well i assure you i'm not! and even if i was, is it relevant? i seem to recall you saying that a couple of times in the past also. Why do you keep trying to compare me to JW's? s if its some kind of testimony against me?0 -
So what is it then? 1) do you believe in the immortal soul? 2) if it is immortal, then it is life, or would you like to offer a different definition of life, death and immortality? 3)Do you believe that hell is a place of fiery torment? Where people will be concious, feel pain, gnash their teeth and weep. Forever? ?
1) Immortal soul: Yes
2) Revelation tells us that the soul goes to a second death. Revelation 20:14. Where it is tormented for ever.
3) Read the above passages quoting Jesus. So yes. I believe Jesus. Do you not?On the contrary, i have provided both scripture, John in Revelation, and also what appears to be bad translation of greek. But at the moment, thats not of great importance, I'm trying to establish the nature of your god. ?
That is of the utmost importance. Determinig what it is God is communicating with us. Which passage in Revelation are you wishing to an exegesis of?We'll suffer endlessly in fiery torment? So i'll ask you a question that Noel declined to answer. If your daughter became a mass murderer, child molester and all the other wicked things you could think of. Would you torture her 'forever', for no other reason but to have her suffer?
I wouldn't want that. It is a consequence of her actions that would bring her to that eventual conclusion. Just as our rejection of God brings us to that eventual end. You get your wish, an existence without God. There are those who look forward to that eventuality. No God, no Christians, no religion.
Jesus describes to us what the end of that path looks like.Why not torture them?
No need to torture. I have no right to inflict pain on anyone.
He was crucified on a cross. In an earlier post you mentioned the impaling.ey? Where did that come from? he was impaled. are you saying he wasn't??i don't care if it smacks of jw theology, is that relevant? Are you trying to say that to belittle my position somehow? It also smacks of Messianic Jews, and probably plenty of others. Whats your point? that I'm a jw? Well i assure you i'm not! and even if i was, is it relevant? i seem to recall you saying that a couple of times in the past also. Why do you keep trying to compare me to JW's? s if its some kind of testimony against me?
Yep, my point exactly, you are giving us JW theology. You may not call yourself one, and I believe you are not one and don't attend their meetings.
But, I would say that you are surely reading their literature.0 -
So the wicked obtain everlasting life? i'm going to call it life, as no-one has provided anything to say it isn't life. Existance without God in your life is still life.BrianCalgary wrote: »1) Immortal soul: Yes2) Revelation tells us that the soul goes to a second death. Revelation 20:14
Death and hades are also cast into this fire. so how can death be thrown into this literal hell?3) Read the above passages quoting Jesus. So yes. I believe Jesus. Do you not?
mort than you know Brian. However, before we thrawl through that, as i said, I'd like to establish the nature of your god. imagine it this way. We've established that you believe that i am worshipping a false god. I am making an inquiry into the nature of your god. i really can't get my head around your doctrine of hell, and would like some answers.That is of the utmost importance. Determinig what it is God is communicating with us. Which passage in Revelation are you wishing to an exegesis of?
As i said, i'm not looking for an exegesis, I'm looking to establish the nature of your god.
Why?I wouldn't want that.
but if it was up to you, you would not have her tortured forever for no other reason than to suffer?It is a consequence of her actions that would bring her to that eventual conclusion.Just as our rejection of God brings us to that eventual end. You get your wish, an existence without God. There are those who look forward to that eventuality. No God, no Christians, no religion.
Hang on, so its not a place of fiery torment? its just a place where there is no religion etc? So a world of dawkins'? could you elaborate?No need to torture. I have no right to inflict pain on anyone.
OK. would you have issue with torture? is it ok under any circumstances?He was crucified on a cross. In an earlier post you mentioned the impaling.
Ehh, its the same thing.
Impale: to fix upon, or pierce through with, anything pointed
i take it you did not know what impale meant? what do you thing I thought impale meant?
what do you want me to do about it? If some things i say concur in some way with jw's so what? what is your point exactly? whats the relevance? Some of my beliefs concur with yours, some with Noels etc. wheres the relevance?Yep, my point exactly, you are giving us JW theology.You may not call yourself one, and I believe you are not one and don't attend their meetings. But, I would say that you are surely reading their literature. my word brian, what are you saying? If the bible is their literature you'd be correct, but last time i checked jw's did not have dibs on the bible as their literature. i am not and never will be associated them. however, your insistance on bringing them up cosistantly is strange. Again, what relevance is this. i've told you I'm not one, that my literature is the bible etc, yet you persist on trying to say that i'm somehow one of them by proxy or something? just cut it out for goodness sake. What is your facination with them? 0 -
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So the wicked obtain everlasting life? i'm going to call it life, as no-one has provided anything to say it isn't life. Existance without God in your life is still life.?Death and hades are also cast into this fire. so how can death be thrown into this literal hell??
The two above together. Revelation 20:14 says:death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death
The lake of fire is the second Death. God defines it that way.
Now reading that inlight of what else we know about Hell, as a result of the teachings of Jesus, we know that people will spend an eternity there.
So second Death occurs where people spend an eternity.
By their choice.more than you know Brian. However, before we thrawl through that, as i said, I'd like to establish the nature of your god. imagine it this way. We've established that you believe that i am worshipping a false god. I am making an inquiry into the nature of your god. i really can't get my head around your doctrine of hell, and would like some answers.?
Then why don't you listen to what He teaches. We have shown you His teaching on Hell. Yet you want to deny it.As i said, i'm not looking for an exegesis, I'm looking to establish the nature of your god.?
You claim that we were using the greek wrong in the interpretation of Revelation. When and were?Why?
but if it was up to you, you would not have her tortured forever for no other reason than to suffer??
No I wouldn't have her living a tortured existence. But if that is the choice she made I can't do anything about it.
Therefore I have taught her to Love the Lord with all her heart, soul and mind and to love her neighbour as herself.Hang on, so its not a place of fiery torment? its just a place where there is no religion etc? So a world of dawkins'? could you elaborate? ?
Oh JT? It is place where God isn't. As a result of God's absence it is a fiery torment. Action and consequence.OK. would you have issue with torture? is it ok under any circumstances??
One person torturing another, no. My friend being tortured by her own actions? That is going to happen. I can help her.
There are things that I have done and failed to do in the past that torture me today. My action and then the consequence.Ehh, its the same thing.
Impale: to fix upon, or pierce through with, anything pointed
i take it you did not know what impale meant? what do you thing I thought impale meant??
it is quite different.
An impaling stick is long and pointed. The victim is set upon it with stick placed at about the nether regions. As time goes on the weight of the victim impales him on teh stick.
Crucifixion: nailed or strapped to a cross. Eventually gravity works to crush th elungs and death occurs due to suffocation.what do you want me to do about it? If some things i say concur in some way with jw's so what? what is your point exactly? whats the relevance? Some of my beliefs concur with yours, some with Noels etc. wheres the relevance??
Your errors in theology are right out of the JW handbook. I haven't seen your source of commentaries that help in discernment of the word. my word brian, what are you saying? If the bible is their literature you'd be correct, but last time i checked jw's did not have dibs on the bible as their literature. i am not and never will be associated them. however, your insistance on bringing them up cosistantly is strange. Again, what relevance is this. i've told you I'm not one, that my literature is the bible etc, yet you persist on trying to say that i'm somehow one of them by proxy or something? just cut it out for goodness sake. What is your facination with them?
The JW's use a very bad translation of the Bible. Their commentaries on the Bible reflect that poor translation.
I and PDN and Excelsior use the Bible as our final authority on our faith. We all use commentaries and helps in order to discern what the word is telling us. I also use those that are more knowledgable than I in these things as well. Men like PDN and Excelsior have been more educated than I and are great sources of correction, and they use the Bible in order to do that correction.0 -
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BrianCalgary wrote: »The two above together. Revelation 20:14 says:death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death
The lake of fire is the second Death. God defines it that way.
Now reading that inlight of what else we know about Hell, as a result of the teachings of Jesus, we know that people will spend an eternity there.
So second Death occurs where people spend an eternity.
By their choice.
So its called the second death of which there is no resurrection. Death and hades is cast into it along with the peoples whos name is not written in the book of life. So is it a literal fire? or is that symbolic? How can death be cast into a lake of fire? if it is symbolic, then why is it not symbolic when it comes to people?
Actually, I'd like to find out about why your god does this. so if we put scripture aside a moment.
Then why don't you listen to what He teaches. We have shown you His teaching on Hell. Yet you want to deny it.
Ok, for arguements sake, lets just say, I don't believe. i want to forget about the bible. Imagine i am a non-believer, which i am in your eyes, so it shouldn't be hard. i want to believe in your god, but i am having trouble with this hell business. Imagine it doesn't matter to me what is in the bible. Rather, i want to find out your gods nature before i believe on him.You claim that we were using the greek wrong in the interpretation of Revelation. When and were?
no, i believe that there may be a spurious translationin the Gospels. Instead of saying 'everlasting torment', it should be 'age long pruning' or chastisement. But even at that, lets leave that aside for now.No I wouldn't have her living a tortured existence. But if that is the choice she made I can't do anything about it.
She chose to reject god.Your god is then choosing to make the consequence of this rejection an everlasting life of fiery torment, for no other purpose but to have her suffer. So what purpose does your god do this? would you see it as loving?
of course, I'd expect nothing less.Therefore I have taught her to Love the Lord with all her heart, soul and mind and to love her neighbour as herself.Oh JT?
Oh Brian?It is place where God isn't. As a result of God's absence it is a fiery torment. Action and consequence.
So is it literal fiery tormet? will your immortal soul literally burn forever?One person torturing another, no. My friend being tortured by her own actions? That is going to happen. I can help her.
how does one torture themselves in such a way? remember, you are saying your god set it up this way. people may reject him, and there are consequences, no problem. However, you are saying that the consequence your god put in place, is torture endlesly. What is your gods purpose for creating this consequence?There are things that I have done and failed to do in the past that torture me today. My action and then the consequence.
as i said, i have no problem with consequence. Its what the consequence is that I'm talking about.it is quite different.
An impaling stick is long and pointed. The victim is set upon it with stick placed at about the nether regions. As time goes on the weight of the victim impales him on teh stick.
Crucifixion: nailed or strapped to a cross. Eventually gravity works to crush th elungs and death occurs due to suffocation.
Well actually, you are talking about a very specific method of impalement. the process off sticking a nail through a hand is actually impalement also. So you can say that Jesus was crucified, or impaled (nailed to) on a cross. Neither is innaccurate. i see where you went wrong though. but this is off the point, and a silly arguement i suppose, so i'll leave it there.Your errors in theology are right out of the JW handbook. I haven't seen your source of commentaries that help in discernment of the word.
My source? i told you. various bibles and concordances. discussions with family members, friends, priests, here on boards, online. thats it. I have no book that tells me what everything means if thats what you are getting at?The JW's use a very bad translation of the Bible. Their commentaries on the Bible reflect that poor translation.
I and PDN and Excelsior use the Bible as our final authority on our faith. We all use commentaries and helps in order to discern what the word is telling us. I also use those that are more knowledgable than I in these things as well. Men like PDN and Excelsior have been more educated than I and are great sources of correction, and they use the Bible in order to do that correction.
ok, I'm finished with all this stuff now. Believe what you will. I'd like to stick to finding out about the nature of your god if you don't mind?0 -
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I really don't mean to sound condescending to anyone but this is what happens when people interpret scripture for themselves. Now I'll put on my asbestos suit before I get flamedGood grief, scripture here scripture there , Hell no hell, cross or impalement , gnashing of teeth, drug addicted daughters. you die once you die twice , is this heaven is this hell who cares who can tell anyone for the last few choc ice .I have to say that bible, which ever one you read or study seems to leave some of ye with more questions than answers but It has been great to read them all.
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Feeling persecuted?Why would you even bother to engage me Noel? i am a stubborn heathen who has the nerve to study the bible without a priest present, am i not? Who just doesn't want to understand i think you said. yet here you are, trying to have a pop. So what is it, are you wsting your time with me or not? Let's just agree to disagree. 0 -
Feeling persecuted?
No, I'm not feeling persecuted at all. Why would I feel that? because I've got views that people disagree with?
Let's just agree to disagree
I don't believe thats how it ended Noel. i don't mind you opting out of the conversation, but it went more, 'I'm wasting my time with you, you just don't want to understand'. Thats not agreeing to disagree, thats refusing to answer questions on the basis that you think you are wasting your time in discussing things with me because i don't 'want' to understand. So what is it? You want to just agree to disagree on whatever basis, or you don't want to waste your time on a stubborn man? Either way, i don't mind, I'm not offended or anything, I'm just looking for consistancy.0 -
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