This is a Real Officer compared to the Muppets of Officers we have here.

Flying

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-1293239,.html

The story about a lt.col in the Parachute Regiment, who has shown his distinct disgust for the British Government and the army in the way they treat wounded men and in particular his own from 3 Para.

I have to say this is a true and real officer,who has balls and I respect very much, it is about time someone told it as it is and not a sanitised BS CNN very of events for the public to see.

It also in comparison to this country army shows up what a bunch of amateurs the Irish Army Officier is, I am slating the Officiers here and not the rank and file, as from my experience when have you seen a L/Col in the PDF lead from the front and get stuck in, IMHO they are a waste of time and nothing but a shower of degenerate Civil Servants that get the NCO's and Pte's to do the dirty work.

Dub13

Its a shame he had to leave before he went public,the MOD are ruthless with people who step out of line and they are losing alot of top men because of this.Even the way they said in that report that he got a promotion but 'not the one he wanted' they are trying to imply that this is just the actions of a disgruntled former employee.


If the top brass faceless people in the MOD have you in there sights you are in a no win situation anybody who has read up on Colonel Tim Collins 'allegation's' will tell you the same.

Flying

Himself and Collins are off the same mindset, as per usual the MOD trying to cover it up with lies.

Exar Khun

Whats wrong with Irish Officers ?

Flying

Exar Khun wrote: »

Whats wrong with Irish Officers ?

Whats right, they are civil servants, trained badly and rarely if ever lead from the front, that is left down to Senior and Junior NCO's to do.

The quote in the army is " Being an Offiicer is a good pensionable job", beyond that very few want to soldier and look for plum (low risk) trips.

Apart from the very few in the ARW the general Irish army officier has an exceptional bad attitude, is thought (indirectly) in the Curragh to look down on his/her subordinates and not to work with them. ( A generalisation you may say, but in fact true, I was born into an army family and served in the army and navy but this is from experience)

Exar Khun

Surely such an unprofessonial attitude cannot be so pervasive throughout the officer corps?

Irish_Army01

Exar Khun wrote: »

Surely such an unprofessonial attitude cannot be so pervasive throughout the officer corps?

Its not, its like any job, there are good ones and bad ones. both of which I have come across. But mostly Good ones.

Oilrig

Funny this, for the first few years when I was serving I held the same view as the OP. But, there are some really good Officers in the DF.

Having since worked with them as a Civvie in many diverse locations around the globe, I can assure you that PDF middle & senior ranking Officers are held in the highest regard by their peers. I have witnessed a PDF Officer (Col) leading a group composed of German, French, US Marines, Spanish and Brit Officers and was respected to the point of being revered by these guys.

Changed my perspective.

Not for a minute suggesting that there aren't fools in the junior Officer ranks, but there you go.

Don't tar them all with the same brush.

arybvtcw0eolkf

I've met one good officer in the PDF, ONE. In twenty two years service I've met ONE.

Satan Polaroid

Mairt wrote: »

I've met one good officer in the PDF, ONE. In twenty two years service I've met ONE.

That's a pretty damning indictment.

Flying

I would be off the same opinion as Mairt, I met a Captain from the ARW and he had balls and got stuck in.

Flying

Also the selection for the Cadets is still (Unofficially) down to Political pull,Intervention from Clergy and also Nepotisim.

It is rare if ever that I have seen the son or daughter of a Pte or NCO being a Cadet or Officer.

Although the term canvassing will disqualify is everywhere it is there big time.

Exar Khun

Aside from lacking balls why are they so bad ? I'm getting mixed reactions here. One side says they have a bad attitude the other says they are well respected. Its very confusing.

cushtac

Flying wrote: »

Also the selection for the Cadets is still (Unofficially) down to Political pull,Intervention from Clergy and also Nepotisim.

It is rare if ever that I have seen the son or daughter of a Pte or NCO being a Cadet or Officer.

Although the term canvassing will disqualify is everywhere it is there big time.

I would count 8 PDF officers as good friends of mine, none of them had any relations in the PDF and came from ordinary working class families.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Flying wrote: »

Also the selection for the Cadets is still (Unofficially) down to Political pull,Intervention from Clergy and also Nepotisim.

It is rare if ever that I have seen the son or daughter of a Pte or NCO being a Cadet or Officer.

Although the term canvassing will disqualify is everywhere it is there big time.

I think that was true of an older generation of officers, not any more.

neilled

Flying wrote: »

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-1293239,.html

The story about a lt.col in the Parachute Regiment, who has shown his distinct disgust for the British Government and the army in the way they treat wounded men and in particular his own from 3 Para.

I have to say this is a true and real officer,who has balls and I respect very much, it is about time someone told it as it is and not a sanitised BS CNN very of events for the public to see.

It also in comparison to this country army shows up what a bunch of amateurs the Irish Army Officier is, I am slating the Officiers here and not the rank and file, as from my experience when have you seen a L/Col in the PDF lead from the front and get stuck in, IMHO they are a waste of time and nothing but a shower of degenerate Civil Servants that get the NCO's and Pte's to do the dirty work.

Could you give an example of what you mean by leading from the front? This is coming from a civvy (with military aspirations once i'm finished college) here so explanation would be appreciated from serving and former members of the DF.

Does leading from the front mean coming out and lambasting say DOD/Government of the day if the conditions of the men under their command aren't paid enough/got the corrrect gear?

Does it mean running around on exercises, steyr in hand blazing away at the "enemy" and doing the same when the crap hits the fan? (The story of the officer in charge of the besieged company at jadotville springs to mind if the book is correct) and the "I will do anything anyone under my command would" attitude

Thanks lads, response appreciated.

Flying

Basically an Officer on the ground with his men and leading them into battle, being with his men directly, fighting with them and no running things from a nice warm bunker or right back somewhere in the rear.

neilled

Flying wrote: »

Basically an Officer on the ground with his men and leading them into battle, being with his men directly, fighting with them and no running things from a nice warm bunker or right back somewhere in the rear.

Thanks for the clarification flying, would it be fair to say (from opinions i've seen offered on other forums) that there are times when the leadership style you mention is appropriate and times when standing back a bit (but not necessarily in the command bunker) is what should be done and its a matter of getting the balance right between the two?

Seen an interesting opinion professed recently (which was somewhat thought provoking) that the British officer awarded the VC in the Falklands (was it H Jones) was a Col. who got killed doing the job of a corporal and could have saved lives if he'd stood back and assessed the situation properly. Again I'm a civvy and it was an opinion that is in stark contrast to the normal reading of the situation ie Jones led from the front, inspired the troops to take the battle to the enemy etc? Any thoughts on that?

Thanks for the reply.

Flying

H Jones was mad but in a good way, he charged a MG emplacement and tried to outflank it but was dropped in the process, but that is a true company commander who lead by example and would not ask he men to do something that he would not do himself.

Tim Collins would be another and the recent resignation of the Para Col, I mentioned earlier.

Fratton Fred

Surely Leading from the front would be staying and fighting alongside your men, not falling on your sword when the going gets tough.

I admire what the guy has done, but I doubt he jeopardised his pension to do it.

landylad

Same story here, over the years a number former chiefs of staff have criticized the conditions in the Defence forces only after they retire, when they were in the job and possibly in a position to do something about it, the said and done nothing. Only once in the time I was in did I hear a serving officer publicly slate the DOD and the incumbent minister !!!

Hagar

Two words, Promotions Pensions.

Flying

Hagar wrote: »

Two words, Promotions Pensions.

Correct and Right

Dub13

Flying wrote: »

Tim Collins would be another

I am a big admirer of Mr Collins,I met him a couple of times and he is defiantly a 'real officer'.

neilled

Hagar wrote: »

Two words, Promotions Pensions.

But I would have thought the Cheif of staff was guranteed a pension anyway and had reached to top so to speak so what would there be to stop him?

Actually there were a number of serving officers who were critical of the govt of the day on a prime time special called "a defenceless nation".

The second part covering the naval service and air corps is available online but the army one isn't. It was broadcast in the aftermath of the white paper.

SASQUATCH

PAX

bunny shooter

SASQUATCH wrote: »

PAX

WTF again ?

bunny shooter

Surely personal abuse is not warranted ? :eek:

People have been banned for less

Hagar

The poster has already been infracted.

Please leave the moderating to the mods. How else will I get paid my fat year-end bonus?

bunny shooter

Hagar wrote: »

The poster has already been infracted.

Please leave the moderating to the mods. How else will I get paid my fat year-end bonus?

Humble apologies and glee

Flying

bunny shooter wrote: »

Surely personal abuse is not warranted ? :eek:

People have been banned for less

If you read his posts he does actually hang around vagrants ! and tis a troll !

bunny shooter

Flying wrote: »

If you read his posts he does actually hang around vagrants ! and tis a troll !

Vagrants are people, just like you and I and always remember "there but for the grace of God......", You've troll tendacies yourself at times.

Flying

bunny shooter wrote: »

Vagrants are people, just like you and I and always remember "there but for the grace of God......", You've troll tendacies yourself at times.

Aw Bunny you got a heart, only a few weeks ago you wanted to stomp all those poor privates as you were a bad ass cpl, anyhow swifting moving on

rednik

In the late eighties I served in Iraq. Every evening a team debriefing was held and from a multinational force of 22 countries the Irish Officers always took the lead and showed their true professionalism,intelligence and ability to carry out all tasks given. Most of the other nationalities could not give a proper debriefing. On all patrols carried out it was always the Irish Officer who looked after planning. This has come from the experience gained on 40 years of UN experience.
From my experience overseas service brought out the best and the worst in the Irish Officer.

Flying

rednik wrote: »

In the late eighties I served in Iraq. Every evening a team debriefing was held and from a multinational force of 22 countries the Irish Officers always took the lead and showed their true professionalism,intelligence and ability to carry out all tasks given. Most of the other nationalities could not give a proper debriefing. On all patrols carried out it was always the Irish Officer who looked after planning. This has come from the experience gained on 40 years of UN experience.
From my experience overseas service brought out the best and the worst in the Irish Officer.

Most of the 40 years of UN experience was not front line and was admin and observer roles, again they can talk the talk but when it comes to front line soldiering as I have seen in my time in the army, they are nowhere to be seen apart from the very very few.

Also I assume with you were a PA ?

purple'n'gold

My knowledge of matters military is not very comprehensive, so bear with me. But I do know this much. The Irish defence forces have never fought a war. On a few scattered occasions small units did come under attack when on UN duty. But this would not have been large scale military action, where front line military decisions involving a lot of troops would have to be taken that would influence the outcome of a serious engagement. (This would be real soldiering, leading men under fire). So we don’t really have any benchmarks to go by. From what I have gathered on this thread and others like it is that our officers tend to be like military civil servants.

Flying

purplengold wrote: »

My knowledge of matters military is not very comprehensive, so bear with me. But I do know this much. The Irish defence forces have never fought a war. On a few scattered occasions small units did come under attack when on UN duty. But this would not have been large scale military action, where front line military decisions involving a lot of troops would have to be taken that would influence the outcome of a serious engagement. (This would be real soldiering, leading men under fire). So we don’t really have any benchmarks to go by. From what I have gathered on this thread and others like it is that our officers tend to be like military civil servants.

Well the Irish Army have been present for almost every major action in lebanon.

They have several "battles" in the Congo, Also had several incidents regarding rioting in Kosvo and Incidents in Liberia, I agree to a degree what you are saying but an Officer should lead by example and not from the rear or a safe area. we are a defence force here but the same Military principle should apply to any army regardless of size.

purple'n'gold

Flying wrote: »

Well the Irish Army have been present for almost every major action in lebanon.

They have several "battles" in the Congo, Also had several incidents regarding rioting in Kosvo and Incidents in Liberia, I agree to a degree what you are saying but an Officer should lead by example and not from the rear or a safe area. we are a defence force here but the same Military principle should apply to any army regardless of size.

Again you will have to bear with me; my knowledge of these matters is sketchy. Ok, maybe the Irish army was present for almost every major action in Lebanon. But did they actually take part in that action? I would also be slow to describe the actions that took place in the Congo as major battles (albeit no fun and games for the chaps involved) and I wouldn’t describe a riot as a battle. Our army was kept primarily for the internal defence of the state, it has done an admirable job doing just that, but I repeat, they have no experience of fighting an actual war.

Flying

purplengold wrote: »

Again you will have to bear with me; my knowledge of these matters is sketchy. Ok, maybe the Irish army was present for almost every major action in Lebanon. But did they actually take part in that action? I would also be slow to describe the actions that took place in the Congo as major battles (albeit no fun and games for the chaps involved) and I wouldn’t describe a riot as a battle. Our army was kept primarily for the internal defence of the state, it has done an admirable job doing just that, but I repeat, they have no experience of fighting an actual war.

Well Jadotsville, Niemba,The Battle for the Tunnel (Exactly where in the Congo I am not sure), The Battle of Op' Ras (1979,45 BN UNIFIL), The Battle of A'Tiri (Spelling) are a few, They are no Goose Greens but still intense enough, the Battle of Op'Ras up to 200,000 rounds was recorded, How I know this my father was one of several men who held out with only FN's and no support for over 24 hours and again the windy officers were nice and tucked in back in Naquora making idiotic (untrained decisions) that did not have any practicality on the ground at the time, One Cpl and several privates held there ground against the Christians. Also for that day "Illegal" DSM's were given out and even one to an officer that was not even present..

eroo

purplengold wrote: »

Again you will have to bear with me; my knowledge of these matters is sketchy. Ok, maybe the Irish army was present for almost every major action in Lebanon. But did they actually take part in that action? I would also be slow to describe the actions that took place in the Congo as major battles (albeit no fun and games for the chaps involved) and I wouldn’t describe a riot as a battle. Our army was kept primarily for the internal defence of the state, it has done an admirable job doing just that, but I repeat, they have no experience of fighting an actual war.

The DF are renowned worldwide for their peacekeeping capabilities.Just because we weren't involved in large scale invasions or battles doesn't mean that the DF can't stand toe-to-toe with the best.Their track record is brilliant and without good leadership,said track record would not exist.Sure there are **** officers but you can't paint them all w/ the same brush!There are some very capable officers in the DF!

purple'n'gold

Flying wrote: »

Well Jadotsville, Niemba,The Battle for the Tunnel (Exactly where in the Congo I am not sure), The Battle of Op' Ras (1979,45 BN UNIFIL), The Battle of A'Tiri (Spelling) are a few, They are no Goose Greens but still intense enough, the Battle of Op'Ras up to 200,000 rounds was recorded, How I know this my father was one of several men who held out with only FN's and no support for over 24 hours and again the windy officers were nice and tucked in back in Naquora making idiotic (untrained decisions) that did not have any practicality on the ground at the time, One Cpl and several privates held there ground against the Christians. Also for that day "Illegal" DSM's were given out and even one to an officer that was not even present..

I have the greatest admiration for the men who fought in the Congo. I know one chap very well who was there in the early 1960’s. He once told me that they (the Irish troops)
Were very uncomfortable with their heavy uniforms while troops from other countries
Had proper clothing and equipment. And of course, the courage under fire of the ordinary
Irish soldier was and will never be in question, they never faltered when questions were asked of them.

Flying

eroo wrote: »

The DF are renowned worldwide for their peacekeeping capabilities.Just because we weren't involved in large scale invasions or battles doesn't mean that the DF can't stand toe-to-toe with the best.Their track record is brilliant and without good leadership,said track record would not exist.Sure there are **** officers but you can't paint them all w/ the same brush!There are some very capable officers in the DF!

I agree the DF are exceptionally good peacekeepers and (maybe I am bias) but the NCO's and Privates are the ones who gained that reputation, the hearts of minds of villages in Southern Lebanon was won by guys from the hardests parts of Dublin,Cork,Limerick and the North, although there are a few good officiers they are few are far between.

purple'n'gold

If this thread is about the comparisons between Irish army officers and officers from armies that have actually fought a war, then it all boils down to tradition. We don’t have any tradition, battle honours etc. the only tradition our officer corps have is UN peace keeping. So, the jury is out on our officer corps until they actually fight alongside, direct and lead troops in a sizable military conflict. I am not discussing the troops, only the officer corps.

cushtac

purplengold wrote: »

then it all boils down to tradition.

Bollox, it comes down to ability, will and training. Look at Israel, it had no great military tradition to draw on, yet the attitude and ability of it's soldiers and officers contributed to it's military success.

purple'n'gold

cushtac wrote: »

Bollox, it comes down to ability, will and training. Look at Israel, it had no great military tradition to draw on, yet the attitude and ability of it's soldiers and officers contributed to it's military success.

And of course knowing that they can never loose, because big brother (USA) is behind them 100% financially and militarily. You best go look for a better comparison.

cushtac

purplengold wrote: »

And of course knowing that they can never loose, because big brother (USA) is behind them 100% financially and militarily. You best go look for a better comparison.

America wasn't backing Israel in 1947 when they first beat their neighbours and didn't supply them during the Six Day War when they beat them again. Moreover, it wasn't US troops that did the fighting - so whatever way you look at it the Israelis are responsible for their own success.

But if you want another example look at the Irish War of Independence, most of the successful IRA commanders had no formal officer training. Another example would be Vo Nguyen Giap, the North Vietnamese general, who left school at 15.

Ability & will, followed by training, are what matter, not how old the regiment is or whether or not your granda died at The Somme.

purple'n'gold

Israel was beaten in 1973 when the Americans came to their aid with massive amounts of material. And in every war and military action they have fought since 1948 they know that no matter what they cannot loose. The big guy is looking after them. The Irish war of independence was won mostly by the brilliance of Michael Collins, his intelligence service and his ruthless guerrilla tactics. And of course, the likes of Richard Mulcahy and Sean McKeon were natural guerrilla leaders. The Vietnamese won their conflict at tremendous loss to the Vietnamese people, but they were supplied throughout their war with material and aid from all over the communist world. I take your point about the brilliance of Vo Nguyen Giap.
I will say no more on this subject. The thread is supposed to be about Irish army officers vis a vis other army officers and I am digressing.

cushtac

purplengold wrote: »

Israel was beaten in 1973 when the Americans came to their aid with massive amounts of material. And in every war and military action they have fought since 1948 they know that no matter what they cannot loose. The big guy is looking after them.

Israel was beaten? The fact that Israel still exists is proof this didn't happen. America did indeed deliver equipment to the Isrealis, just as the Soviets delivered equipment to the Arabs. Israel used their equipment better and managed to beat the Arabs, look at the Chinese Farm engagement and the taking of the Golan Heights. And the 'big guy' put an arms embargo on Israel during the Six-Day War, that's hardly looking after them.

purplengold wrote: »

The Irish war of independence was won mostly by the brilliance of Michael Collins, his intelligence service and his ruthless guerrilla tactics.

His ruthless guerrilla tactics? Looks like you've bought into the Tim Pat Coogan/movie version of Collins. He never developed the tactics, nor did he lead anyone in the field - that was done by the likes of Kevin Barry and Liam Lynch. Richard Mulcahy was never a 'natural guerrilla leader' either, he was Chief of Staff during the War of Independence.

Dub13

Can we stay on topic please.

Thanks

Flying

purplengold wrote: »

Israel was beaten in 1973 when the Americans came to their aid with massive amounts of material. And in every war and military action they have fought since 1948 they know that no matter what they cannot loose. The big guy is looking after them. The Irish war of independence was won mostly by the brilliance of Michael Collins, his intelligence service and his ruthless guerrilla tactics. And of course, the likes of Richard Mulcahy and Sean McKeon were natural guerrilla leaders. The Vietnamese won their conflict at tremendous loss to the Vietnamese people, but they were supplied throughout their war with material and aid from all over the communist world. I take your point about the brilliance of Vo Nguyen Giap.
I will say no more on this subject. The thread is supposed to be about Irish army officers vis a vis other army officers and I am digressing.

Just an off topic point Israel was never beaten, even last year was not a defeat, I would think they are one of the best (peoples) army on the planet, they solider and nothing else like cermonial crap.

I have 3 Cousins in the Golani, who are Irish/Israeli and I have dealt with the IDF in Lebanon and to me are one hell of a professional army and the US need them more than they need the US...

I dont disagree about military aid, but also look at mil aid to Saudi etc

McArmalite

Flying wrote: »

Just an off topic point Israel was never beaten, even last year was not a defeat, I would think they are one of the best (peoples) army on the planet, they solider and nothing else like cermonial crap.

I have 3 Cousins in the Golani, who are Irish/Israeli and I have dealt with the IDF in Lebanon and to me are one hell of a professional army and the US need them more than they need the US...

I dont disagree about military aid, but also look at mil aid to Saudi etc

If isreal went to war with Ireland - which side would you be on ?