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Slash foreign aid contribution
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It is convenient to blame the poor for their own poverty. And in the case of Africa it is handy to point fingers at corrupt governments and dictators; it is much harder to get your head around the guts of the stuff DadaKopf talks about and also the history of that continent.0
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This is an important point. There is no point robbing people then giving them crumbs from your table and giving out about their leaders stealing from them as well.We're so concerned about where 'our money' goes, conveniently overlooking the fact that much if it is actually Africa's money, which those in rich countries (and their agents in Africa whom *they corrupted*) stole from them.
In a actual capitalist system no one can be coerced to take part in any commercial action. I accept that the "global capitalist system" is not an actual capitalist system.The main problem is exploitation within and by the global capitalist system.
In Cameroon you have to pay twice the annual wage to start a business. You could not call Ireland a liberalised economy if you had to pay 60k to set up as a plumper*.You say Africa's problem is the need to develop more liberal economies? Africa is the most liberalised continent in the world
*apologies my spilling is terrible, plumber0 -
I don't know what a plumper is, but much of Ireland's trade policy is EU trade policy. There are various schemes to keep African exports out. Appearing as lovely pro-development trade treaties, the Everything But Arme and Economic Partnership Agreements place punitive tariffs and other trade barrieries to keep the exports that really count - particularly processed goods and manufactures out so European producers and trading partners aren't adversely affected.
In effect: one rule for the rich, who write the rules, and one rule for the poor.
So the theory goes. But I don't believe capitalism can ever live up to the theory. But as an ideology, its purpose is to conceal the exploitation that happens every day.In a actual capitalist system no one can be coerced to take part in any commercial action. I accept that the "global capitalist system" is not an actual capitalist system.0 -
Democratically re-elected as recently as last year. That's not a dictatorship.
That's not a dictatorship.
And we don't give to them.
And we don't give to them.
And we don't give them... much.
It might help for you to look up who they are before you list countries we don't give to.
well we do give aid to swaziland
http://www.skillshare.ie/aboutus/our_programme.html
but again all we are doing is plugging holes...it should be their government who are enforcing the laws but clearly its a highly chauvanistic society and the king leads by example with his many wives...why cant he crack down on these sorts of crime? or is it "local custom".
Ok so when the government blows up its own people and shoot opposition protesters, i dont call that a democracy...i call that a form of dictatorship...
I agree that Uganda had elections, but they practically have a president for life, no matter how good or bad he is, it just sets an example for other presidents for life...0 -
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That probably took you a while to find, just so that you could make the point that we do give Aid to Swaziland. But you were talking about the king and his palaces, so whilst you're right that we give some aid to Swaziland, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the king or his palaces.
The project listed on your link is :SWAGAA - Swaziland Action Group Against Abuse - has successfully raised awareness on abuse and Gender Based Violence over the past ten years. It has also advocated review of the relevant legislation and stiffer sentences for perpetrators. In 2005/6, SWAGAA counselled a total of 2,275 clients who were victims of sexual abuse, emotional, physical and economic exploitation. A large number of cases remain unreported due to fear and official indifference.
And it looks like exactly the kind of project that might make a positive impact on people's lives. So, if the government won't carry out initiatives like this, I'd argue that it's good for us to support NGOs that do.
For those that think overseas aid is a total waste of money and that changes should be made to political and economic systems, that's what many charities are trying to do through advocacy. I'd agree with Dada about the root causes.
But it's a slow process and an uphill struggle, for example, those that advocate for fairer voting procedures at the World Trade Organisation are up against well funded industry lobby groups. Poor countries can't afford the expensive legal representation that rich countries have. And ultimately there is a profit to be made from exploiting poor people, and that's the driver.
It's not because people are inherently bad or evil that all this goes on, it's just because many people are convinced by advertising of their need to consume things.... which via a chain of complex and impossible to list interactions eventually ends up with poor people getting the bitter taste of a free market.
When you start talking to politicians about this around election time - they don't really care, because as Sleepy is moaning about in his thread - all Irish politics is local and there aren't any votes in the millenium development goals. Well, unless they care about crusty bearded sandle wearers like me.
Me, I'm compelled to do something. I wouldn't be happy going to Ogra Fianna Fail meetings and trying to get the com-it-eeeeee to adopt a resolution calling for ' an appropriate response to the disgraceful situation in <insert name of poor region>' - I'd rather get active, get people talking about it, try and convince boardsies they if they care enough that they should get active and hopefully someone else will bring it up at the Ogra Fianna Fail meeting ;>0 -
We in Ireland are participating in a global system of exploitation. Have you ever given thought to whether corrupt transactions are laundered through the IFSC in Dublin? Or whether the food you buy in shops - coffee, sugar etc. - is produced by people paid a pittance, or by children. Do you drive? Perhaps you buy your petrol in Shell, or Exxon, companies which are known to abuse human rights. The list goes on.
Majority of Irish people aren't wealthy? Not wealthy in relation to African people?
Average GDP per person in Ireland: $38,827
Average GDP per person in Botswana: $9,945
Average GDP per person in Sierra Leone: $561
I don't dispute that poverty is in part a relative phenomenon (1-in-5 people are at risk of poverty in Ireland). But to fully appreciate these figures, it's worth looking at the rates of inequality. In Ireland, the richest 10% owns 27% of the wealth; in Botswana (one of Africa's better performers), the richest 10% owns 57% of the wealth. So, compared to Ireland, most in Botswana are much, much poorer than the average in Ireland.
Globalisation means we are responsible for the effects of our choices thousands of miles away. We are therefore at risk from the effects of our choices thousands of miles away. But worst of all, our choices are affecting the world's most vulnerable people thousands of miles away.
Regardless of your comments, this is the moral argument for international development co-operation. It is we who also have to change.
So now you are begrudging the Irish from earning a few bob, saving a few pennies etc etc. We just can't win. The second an Irish person prospers in this country, their neighbour is plotting on how to screw them. Blatant jealousy and begrudgery is the problen here. So with you we will have to pay extra for all our commodities. You aren't happy paying what the shops are charging, you want everyone paying more for produce:rolleyes:
All this mercy and charity and compassion is certainly lacking when it coms to ones own very neighbour.But if it' Africa, wea are falling over ourselves to 'help'.....0 -
Do you think he's picking on you?
He's making the case, as I am, to defend the amount that's spent on Overseas Aid. And giving you some historical and economic context for the situation, which you appear to be blissfully unaware of.
How do you go from that to calling him a begrudger? The hypocrisy of your whiny name calling is embarassing for you.
If you have any arguments against foreign aid, why don't you put them forward?0 -
I just stated facts. The reality of the situation.walshb wrote:So now you are begrudging the Irish from earning a few bob, saving a few pennies etc etc. We just can't win. The second an Irish person prospers in this country, their neighbour is plotting on how to screw them. Blatant jealousy and begrudgery is the problen here. So with you we will have to pay extra for all our commodities. You aren't happy paying what the shops are charging, you want everyone paying more for produce
All this mercy and charity and compassion is certainly lacking when it coms to ones own very neighbour.But if it' Africa, wea are falling over ourselves to 'help'.....
You're the one having the hissy fit.0 -
I just stated facts. The reality of the situation.
You're the one having the hissy fit.
So the reality is that we in Ieland should be paying more for our goods and services because you say some poor African is slaving to make those goods and services. That seems to be the facts you are stating. I didn't intend on name calling as edanto suggests. I'm not about that. You have your views and I have mine. I simply do not agree with yours....
I agree with certain facts you present, as in certain figures you have presented. I just do not agree that we in Ireland should feel
in any way guilty because you think we are exploiting Africans by availing of cheap produce.....
Cheap to you may not necessarily be cheap to
others.....0 -
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Well fair nough, if you didn't mean to be name calling, lets drop that bit. That's just the way your post read to me.I just do not agree that we in Ireland should feel in any way guilty because you think we are exploiting Africans by availing of cheap produce.....
I'm interested in this bit though. Bear with me, I'm not trying to twist your words, just analyse what you're saying.
Are you suggesting that he's wrong to say that we are exploiting Africans for cheap produce? What would you base that on?
Or are you accepting that we are exploiting them and saying that we shouldn't feel guilty? In which case why not?
As to your question about paying more for goods and services - well, yes I think things would cost more if the people at the start of the supply chain got a decent wage. But not to a huge extent. For example, look at the Fairtrade model or variants such as http://www.heartofafrica.ie/
But in my ideal world, things wouldn't cost you or I, that are on average wages, much more. Instead laws would drive equity from those at the top of the ladder down towards those at the bottom. It makes me sick to see megarich people getting away without paying any taxes.0 -
Well fair nough, if you didn't mean to be name calling, lets drop that bit. That's just the way your post read to me.
I'm interested in this bit though. Bear with me, I'm not trying to twist your words, just analyse what you're saying.
Are you suggesting that he's wrong to say that we are exploiting Africans for cheap produce? What would you base that on?
Or are you accepting that we are exploiting them and saying that we shouldn't feel guilty? In which case why not?
As to your question about paying more for goods and services - well, yes I think things would cost more if the people at the start of the supply chain got a decent wage. But not to a huge extent. For example, look at the Fairtrade model or variants such as http://www.heartofafrica.ie/
But in my ideal world, things wouldn't cost you or I, that are on average wages, much more. Instead laws would drive equity from those at the top of the ladder down towards those at the bottom. It makes me sick to see megarich people getting away without paying any taxes.
I cannot speak for anyone else, but I personallty will not feel one bit guilty as I have never exploited anyone. Anything I ever obtained I worked damn hard for and I am not going to feel guilty for that just because some fair trade movement is in the 'business' of this increase in the price of produce to 'help' the poor African.........
Ireland is a countrty barely getting off its knees and still we have people here
begrudging us a few damn luxuries....That is fact.....
My god we even had the NGO's begging with us to part with a portion of our SSIA accounts and using Africans as a reason to do so.
Then they went even lower and were asking young children
to donate part of their communion money to Africa....
Where does it STOP and how desperate will these
charities get or how low will they stoop...
I may come across as harsh, but those two examples
I mentioned above are a little too extreme IMO....
Of course the WEST has an obligation to help....
I just think it has gone seriously OTT and it's causing
more damn trouble...
Everyone is jumping on the bandwagon....0 -
Not necessarily. If we take the Fair Trade mark as an example, the reason they are more expensive than non-Fair Trade products is because supermarkets know that consumers will pay more for them. Similarly, the reason we pay so much for a cup of coffee in this country is because cafés know what people are prepared to pay; it has little to do with the market price of coffee, which is at an all-time low. Companies such as Nestlé are making billions from this unfair system and we are helping them do it.So the reality is that we in Ieland should be paying more for our goods and services because you say some poor African is slaving to make those goods and services.
To quote Martin Luther King:I agree with certain facts you present, as in certain figures you have presented. I just do not agree that we in Ireland should feel in any way guilty because you think we are exploiting Africans by availing of cheap produce.....
You may not agree, but many of the luxuries we take for granted depend on the exploitation of someone in the supply chain. For example, every time you buy a bottle of Coca-Cola, you are reinforcing that company’s belief that it is ok to exploit child labour and to have death squads assassinate unionised workers. Such is the nature of the globalised world we live in.Before you finish eating your breakfast this morning you've depended on half the world. This is the way our universe is structured… We aren't going to have peace on earth until we recognise this basic fact.0 -
I can assure you that it is quite likely that you have, indirectly.I personallty will not feel one bit guilty as I have never exploited anyone.
Not, it is not a fact, it is your opinion. It is a very long time since Ireland has experienced the kind of conditions that the inhabitants of much of Africa face on a daily basis.Ireland is a countrty barely getting off its knees and still we have people here begrudging us a few damn luxuries....That is fact.....
“Begging” is hardly an accurate description. You were asked through the medium of advertising – it’s not like representatives from Oxfam came to your door and got down on their knees. If you don’t want to give money to charity, that is your decision. But do not begrudge people in Africa (or anywhere else for that matter) for being so “shameless” as to accept donations from others.My god we even had the NGO's begging with us to part with a portion of our SSIA accounts and using Africans as a reason to do so.
May I ask if you thought that the appeal for victims of the tsunami in South-East Asia was justified? Or was that another scam? We should have just left them to sort out their own mess, eh? And the earthquake in Northern Pakistan? None of our business, right?
How? You are against giving aid and you are against fair trade – what do you propose we do?Of course the WEST has an obligation to help....0 -
When we were considered a third world country not so long ago,we received EU grants in the millions for development and farming ,year in and out .We took it all,no questions asked and I believe much of it never saw the light of day as it was purloined ,hence the lack of infrastructure that such money was for.
Who are we now to resent helping others less fortunate than ourselves .Yes some of it may be corruptly taken and so on ,(no strangers to corruption here are we?) but our intentions are good and thats what matters .
understand this , ireland has never ever been considered a 3rd world country0 -
Well fair nough, if you didn't mean to be name calling, lets drop that bit. That's just the way your post read to me.
I'm interested in this bit though. Bear with me, I'm not trying to twist your words, just analyse what you're saying.
Are you suggesting that he's wrong to say that we are exploiting Africans for cheap produce? What would you base that on?
Or are you accepting that we are exploiting them and saying that we shouldn't feel guilty? In which case why not?
As to your question about paying more for goods and services - well, yes I think things would cost more if the people at the start of the supply chain got a decent wage. But not to a huge extent. For example, look at the Fairtrade model or variants such as http://www.heartofafrica.ie/
But in my ideal world, things wouldn't cost you or I, that are on average wages, much more. Instead laws would drive equity from those at the top of the ladder down towards those at the bottom. It makes me sick to see megarich people getting away without paying any taxes.
i suspect he probably accepts that africans are exploited but his main problem is being reminded of that fact , hes fine about wearing a pair of nike that some kid in asia was paid 5p to make as long as he doesnt have to hear about it
his view would be quite common0 -
I can assure you that it is quite likely that you have, indirectly.
Not, it is not a fact, it is your opinion. It is a very long time since Ireland has experienced the kind of conditions that the inhabitants of much of Africa face on a daily basis.
“Begging” is hardly an accurate description. You were asked through the medium of advertising – it’s not like representatives from Oxfam came to your door and got down on their knees. If you don’t want to give money to charity, that is your decision. But do not begrudge people in Africa (or anywhere else for that matter) for being so “shameless” as to accept donations from others.
May I ask if you thought that the appeal for victims of the tsunami in South-East Asia was justified? Or was that another scam? We should have just left them to sort out their own mess, eh? And the earthquake in Northern Pakistan? None of our business, right?
How? You are against giving aid and you are against fair trade – what do you propose we do?
Funny you should mention the tsunami. It has been well documented that millions of money generated for the tsunami was squandered and robbed and corrupted. That has been well documented and the Irish government gave aid for the tsunami. It didn't stop the aid agencies begging on the streets day in and day out. The tsunami was the best thing that ever happened for some people, and I include the aid agencies. Aid agencies for the most part rely on poverty and misery. Otherwise they would NOT exist...
Is anyone honestly going to tell me that the tsunami didn't make a lot of people wealthy and that corruption wasn't evident during the tsunami. Man, every scam in te book was about during the tsunami. There were people in my job who wouldn't give you the steam off their piss collecting for the tsunami...
And I am NOT against giving aid. I just believe the amount is too much and the reason for giving the aid is not genuine and those pleading for increased aid for the most part are not genuine. They are in the business of poverty and are making money from poverty....0 -
So what are you in favour of?0
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For starters we couldSo what are you in favour of?
put a HOLD on this 2012 commitment at least until all Ireland's despicable issues are fixed.
Let's at least sort out our ridiculous health and education system, roads, infrastructure, homlessness etc etc etc. When we are fairly strong in these areas, then maybe we can go save the world.......And I am not looking for perfection in Ireland as this will never happen, just a better standard than what is now......0 -
Also I would be in favor of vetting people who are campaigning and collecting for foreign charity or foreign aid. You want to collect for Africa and Asia etc etc and be a member of a registered charity, then prove that you have first contributed to your own community, County and Country and if successfull, away you go to heal the world.....And I don't just mean tax contributions. I am talking about selfless acts on behalf of your fellow Irish man and woman or any person residing on your own land......0
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That was not what I asked, but anyway, convenient you should overlook the millions of people who were helped by the relief effort.Funny you should mention the tsunami. It has been well documented that millions of money generated for the tsunami was squandered and robbed and corrupted. That has been well documented and the Irish government gave aid for the tsunami.
A meaningless statement if ever there was one. There is not an aid agency I am familiar with that would not welcome the day that their services are no longer required.Aid agencies for the most part rely on poverty and misery. Otherwise they would NOT exist...
Perhaps you could name some of these people?Is anyone honestly going to tell me that the tsunami didn't make a lot of people wealthy and that corruption wasn't evident during the tsunami.
I am sorry you work with such well-meaning people.There were people in my job who wouldn't give you the steam off their piss collecting for the tsunami...
So how much aid would be enough? And please tell me, who are all these people working for aid agencies in Ireland who are making so much money?I just believe the amount is too much and the reason for giving the aid is not genuine and those pleading for increased aid for the most part are not genuine. They are in the business of poverty and are making money from poverty....
As has already been said, a ridiculous amount of money is spent on our health service every year, yet it continues to get worse. Should we continue to pump money into the HSE until we see an improvement? How much money do you think will be required to help the homeless people in Ireland? How should it be spent?Let's at least sort out our ridiculous health and education system, roads, infrastructure, homlessness etc etc etc. When we are fairly strong in these areas, then maybe we can go save the world.......And I am not looking for perfection in Ireland as this will never happen, just a better standard than what is now......
I gave my Indian colleague in work a pen earlier today; should I ask that he return it until I prove to you that I am worthy of such charity?Also I would be in favor of vetting people who are campaigning and collecting for foreign charity or foreign aid. You want to collect for Africa and Asia etc etc and be a member of a registered charity, then prove that you have first contributed to your own community, County and Country and if successfull, away you go to heal the world.....And I don't just mean tax contributions. I am talking about selfless acts on behalf of your fellow Irish man and woman or any person residing on your own land......0 -
Some good points made here.
If it was me I would put someone like Michael O'Leary in charge of either Africa or else Irish Aid to Africa or else international aid to Africa. Then you would certainly see value for money and results.
I just think like i say we are only helping them tick over and not lifting them out of poverty at all. Yes we may improve their standards of living but only for a minute minority. Long term increased aid is no substitute for good honest political leaders who know when time is right to go for the good of the country.
It's like if an aid agency came to ireland in the 1950's sure they would help a small proportion of the people and the help would be short term. But Ireland would continue to be poor and need aid like this unless you had the significant opening up of the economy in the 1960's, the move away from subsistance agriculture and into industrialisation, high tech, trade and investment in human resources as well as a tackling of the nod and a wink corruption that was common place. In many parts of Africa the leaders are more interested in investing in their own happiness with the nations wealth than in the education of their people.
A free press is crucial to development because normally they can be relied on to hold a government to account as for example the Irish Times does in Ireland.
So yes we need to focus on helping peoples short term needs, but we also need to put increased pressure for more transparancy, democracy, freedom of the press and sound political decisions.0 -
Yeah, Michael O'Leary would be great for international aid. Aid intended for Uganda would end up in Madagascar, while 25% would go missing en route.If it was me I would put someone like Michael O'Leary in charge of either Africa or else Irish Aid to Africa or else international aid to Africa. Then you would certainly see value for money and results.
Got anything to back that up? Besides, is helping a small number of people not better than helping none at all?I just think like i say we are only helping them tick over and not lifting them out of poverty at all. Yes we may improve their standards of living but only for a minute minority.
Yeah, Ireland got itself where it is today all by itself - the EU had nothing to do with it. And of course, corruption in Irish politics is a thing of the past.It's like if an aid agency came to ireland in the 1950's sure they would help a small proportion of the people and the help would be short term. But Ireland would continue to be poor and need aid like this unless you had the significant opening up of the economy in the 1960's, the move away from subsistance agriculture and into industrialisation, high tech, trade and investment in human resources as well as a tackling of the nod and a wink corruption that was common place.
Don't forget RTE. They've never cancelled guests on the Late, Late Show who might criticise government policy, or anything like that.A free press is crucial to development because normally they can be relied on to hold a government to account as for example the Irish Times does in Ireland.
We still talking about Ireland?So yes we need to focus on helping peoples short term needs, but we also need to put increased pressure for more transparancy, democracy, freedom of the press and sound political decisions.0 -
I agree with you completely gbh, and contend that the best way to apply the kind of pressure that you're talking about is both to make aid to governments dependant on 'transparancy, democracy, freedom of the press and sound political decisions' as well as empowering people in those countries to make similar demands of their own governments.
Both of these are happening now, as well as countless other initiatives.
For example, have you heard of Ashoka? Your mention of M O'Leary reminded me to throw the phrase 'social entrepreneurship' into this discussion. It refers to people using the skills traditionally applied to forprofit enterprises to engineer social and political improvements in society. http://www.ashoka.org/fellows/social_entrepreneur.cfm
It's incredible how fast this field is growing (Niall Mellon township project might be an example) and I think that it could be the real news story of the new millenium; there has been an explosion in the number of nonprofit orgs and people involved. People see politics as a slow way to change things and realise that if they get enough people involved that you can improve a situation without being constrained by the election-cycle nature of politics.
Ashoka are like a venture capital firm for ideas that build social capital and have been quietly seeking out and supporting people all over the world that are improving their community through nonprofit ways.
That's not to say money is evil. It's not, it's just a tool and it only has the value that you give it. The love of money is the root of all evil and hence the focus on nonprofit. You can still make a salary from this work and take it from me, you get to work with some of the most exciting people and ideas in the world.
djpbarry points out that things aren't perfect here and well he's just as right as walshb when he talks about improving the health system etc. But what I think walshb is missing is an appreciation of the fact that there just AREN'T health, education and social welfare systems as we would recognise them in many parts of the world and that's what people are trying to do through overseas aid.
There is a big political side to this as well, but it's only a rare farsighted politician that will take on the task of trying to change something like the WTO or the grossly unjust EPAs.0 -
Some good points made here.
If it was me I would put someone like Michael O'Leary in charge of either Africa or else Irish Aid to Africa or else international aid to Africa. Then you would certainly see value for money and results.
I went to the last page to see whether this thread was worth reading this sorta of tripe proves it not.0 -
you take one sentence out of the whole thread and you make up your mind based on that?
its not tripe to say that if you get good management you just might resolve these problems...its common sense..and i dont see you making any suggestions only knocking what others have to say...
it may appear tripe to you but to me its a valid argument, and since i respect my opinion far more than yours, im not going to heed what you have to say unless you come up with something which isnt a reaction to what others say.0 -
Afaik, we are commited to giving 0.7% of GBP in foreign aid.
Did we commit to a treaty or can we go back on this?
According to this link, Ireland spent 815 million euro in 2007 on foreign aid. Seems a collasal sum to me and I'm wondering who it be better spent at home on education or the health service.
I agree, your talking complete sense, its all well to say that we can afford it but theres a whole lot of suffering going on in hospital corridors around the country as well, people are dying of neglect here too in this wonderfully rich, perfect country, I have nothing against voluntarily giving aid money to africa, but how about the government trying to sort our own house out first0 -
gillyfromlyre wrote: »I agree, your talking complete sense, its all well to say that we can afford it but theres a whole lot of suffering going on in hospital corridors around the country as well, people are dying of neglect here too in this wonderfully rich, perfect country, I have nothing against voluntarily giving aid money to africa, but how about the government trying to sort our own house out first
The question that should be asked is what has happened to the €40bn that the EU has given to Ireland. How much of that has gone on back handers and lining the pockets of "Friends" of Fianna Fall.
Ireland has become very rich on the back of handouts and it is about time it started giving something back to the international community.0 -
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