Slash foreign aid contribution

Fratton Fred

http://ec.europa.eu/ireland/general_information/ireland_eu/impact/index_en.htm

While most Irish people will have sped past the blue signs along smooth new roads up and down the country, indicating that "This project was co-financed by the EU", fewer people will be aware of the extent of change that the EU has helped initiate in Ireland. Since joining in 1973, the difference between what Ireland paid in and what the EU paid out is about €55 billion euros.

walshb

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The question that should be asked is what has happened to the €40bn that the EU has given to Ireland. How much of that has gone on back handers and lining the pockets of "Friends" of Fianna Fall.

Ireland has become very rich on the back of handouts and it is about time it started giving something back to the international community.

Do you think we just sat on our holes and were given freebies for the past god knows how may years. Handouts my arse. We are one of the very first EU memebers and any money we got from the EU was not damn well free. We are the EU for gods sake. Irish people worked damn hard for anything the EU gave us. The damn cheek!!!!

This is what I am talking about. The Irish mentality that if suddenly we start doing well and earning afew bob, our very own are begrudging us and wanting it taken from us. This is happening throughout Ireland

Do you really believe the EU just said "ah poor old Ireland, let's give them some free money", are you crazy

It wasn't too long ago that if you lost your bloody job here, you were made to beg for some DOLE money. That's a fact and it stil goes on at times...

We are a great nation at curing Africa's problems and the likes but when we ourselves suddenly start to prosper, we have the attitude like what has been posted above...

As for Niall Mellon?

Nobody has got back to me to tell me if Mr Mellon
ever built a single house in Ireland for a person less well off.
All I ever heard is that he is busy building houses
in South Africa for free. I wonder has he ever been
so charitable and compassionate here???

DadaKopf

gillyfromlyre wrote:

I have nothing against voluntarily giving aid money to africa, but how about the government trying to sort our own house out first

That's an unachievable goal. I appreciate your sentiment, but no country will be 100% perfect. So, logically, your point amounts to: we should never provide foreign aid.

If there are moral arguments to 'sort out our own house first', those same moral arguments must logically be applied to developing countries. I've explained why that is in a previous post.

Versus what alternative?

On the basis of its own theory, capitalism fails. That's all I said. The sooner we realise it's as crazy as communism, the better.

Afaik, we are commited to giving 0.7% of GBP in foreign aid.
Did we commit to a treaty or can we go back on this?

The 0.7% has been a commitment since the 1970s. Ireland was part of that internationally agreed commitment. Ireland signed up to the Monterrey Consensus - a renewed 0.7% commitment, and Bertie 'solemnly' swore Ireland would reach 0.7% by 2010 at a meeting of the UN General Assembly. It's agreed policy among members of the OECD Development Assistance Committee. It's not yet legally binding in Ireland.

Fratton Fred

walshb wrote: »

Do you think we just sat on our holes and were given freebies for the past god knows how may years. Handouts my arse. We are one of the very first EU memebers and any money we got from the EU was not damn well free. We are the EU for gods sake. Irish people worked damn hard for anything the EU gave us. The damn cheek!!!!

OK, handouts may be the wrong phrase and no one would question how hard the irish have worked to get the funding, but at the end of the day, the EU gave Ireland a leg up and without the €40 odd billion NET income from the EU, Ireland would still be in the same position you talk about. Ireland should now be in a position to give something back and the 0.7% GDP aid was, I believe, part and parcel of the funding from the EU.

What are you saying, thanks for the €40bn but we squandered it so sod our obligations?

edanto

walshb wrote: »

Do you think we just sat on our holes and were given freebies for the past god knows how may years. Handouts my arse. We are one of the very first EU memebers and any money we got from the EU was not damn well free. We are the EU for gods sake. Irish people worked damn hard for anything the EU gave us. The damn cheek!!!!

Yeah the amount of forms we had to fill out to get all that free money. The cheek of those EU folk. ffs man, it's not begrudgery to point out that Ireland's development was accelerated by handouts in the region of 40,000,000,000 from our neighbours. That's just simple common sense.

It works out to about e10,000 per Irish person. And you're complaining that Africans should be able to sort themselves out with the pittance that they get from the international community. Cop yourself on.

Here's a graph showing the amount of money that flows the other way in Africa, in debt servicing.

from http://blog.ctrlbreak.co.uk/?cat=22

My point is that we would never have sorted ourselves out without the EU aid and political support and that's exactly what overseas aid is trying to do for places like Africa now.

walshb, I'm starting to come to the opinion that you have no sense of scale, or how many people there really are in the world. Sadly, I'm also starting to see that the provision of facts and context is having no impact on your beliefs. It's not that you're putting forward counter arguments - or am I missing some?

Have you ever considered why you believe what you believe and what it would take for you to change your mind?

jonny72

walshb wrote: »

Do you think we just sat on our holes and were given freebies for the past god knows how may years. Handouts my arse. We are one of the very first EU memebers and any money we got from the EU was not damn well free. We are the EU for gods sake. Irish people worked damn hard for anything the EU gave us. The damn cheek!!!!

This is what I am talking about. The Irish mentality that if suddenly we start doing well and earning afew bob, our very own are begrudging us and wanting it taken from us. This is happening throughout Ireland

Do you really believe the EU just said "ah poor old Ireland, let's give them some free money", are you crazy

It wasn't too long ago that if you lost your bloody job here, you were made to beg for some DOLE money. That's a fact and it stil goes on at times...

We are a great nation at curing Africa's problems and the likes but when we ourselves suddenly start to prosper, we have the attitude like what has been posted above...

As for Niall Mellon?

Nobody has got back to me to tell me if Mr Mellon
ever built a single house in Ireland for a person less well off.
All I ever heard is that he is busy building houses
in South Africa for free. I wonder has he ever been
so charitable and compassionate here???

Wait, wait, let me get this straight, you don't have any problem with Europe giving us money in the past, but you have a problem with us giving a tiny fraction of our money to Africa.. am I right?

We're different? we somehow begged harder for the Germans to build our roads? I don't remember Germany being perfect at the time.

moe_sizlak

while corruption in african goverments is no doubt a major cause of ongoing misery for the wider african populations , there are other reasons which are caused by the richer nations which i believe are the core reasons for its continous lack of improovement , i am going to focus on one reason
trade , did you know that while african farmers can prouce food and cotton and other produce at a fraction of the cost of american or european farmers , they are barred from accessing american and european markets in order to protect european and american farmers incomes , this has been the case for decades , its part and parcel of the CAP , right now food supply across the world is not meeting demand so surely this would be a perfect opportunity for african farmers to prosper , the land is superbly fertile in much of africa and labour as we all know is dirt cheap , because farmers are such a powerfull political force in europe and the usa to a lesser degree , nothing will be done about this , it is much cheaper for rich western countries to set aside X amount of billions in aid per yr to africa than to set about reforming the trade rules which so discriminate in favour of western farmers
surely in todays age of globalisation , we should allow african farmers to have access to global markets , if not then we need to stop kidding ourselves into thinking that charity to africa is costing us , its not , its the cheaper option for us

walshb

edanto wrote: »

Yeah the amount of forms we had to fill out to get all that free money. The cheek of those EU folk. ffs man, it's not begrudgery to point out that Ireland's development was accelerated by handouts in the region of 40,000,000,000 from our neighbours. That's just simple common sense.

It works out to about e10,000 per Irish person. And you're complaining that Africans should be able to sort themselves out with the pittance that they get from the international community. Cop yourself on.

Here's a graph showing the amount of money that flows the other way in Africa, in debt servicing.

from http://blog.ctrlbreak.co.uk/?cat=22

My point is that we would never have sorted ourselves out without the EU aid and political support and that's exactly what overseas aid is trying to do for places like Africa now.

walshb, I'm starting to come to the opinion that you have no sense of scale, or how many people there really are in the world. Sadly, I'm also starting to see that the provision of facts and context is having no impact on your beliefs. It's not that you're putting forward counter arguments - or am I missing some?

Have you ever considered why you believe what you believe and what it would take for you to change your mind?

Mate, I am not the only person who believes that overseas aid has gone too far. Plenty believe it too and plenty like you believe the other way.
Africa will not be sorted out with aid aid aid aid aid and the constant throwing of money to the problem, so why are we still throwing vast amounts at the problem?

You may not see 815 million as a lot, but I do and plenty others do and you cannot equate it to 2-3 Euro per person etc etc. It doesn't work like that.
Economies do not work like that...

By the way any comment on Mr Mellon????

walshb

jonny72 wrote: »

Wait, wait, let me get this straight, you don't have any problem with Europe giving us money in the past, but you have a problem with us giving a tiny fraction of our money to Africa.. am I right?

We're different? we somehow begged harder for the Germans to build our roads? I don't remember Germany being perfect at the time.

Giving us money?????
They never gave us money. We too
are part of the EU club and we like the others have earned
money. Nothing for nothing with the Germans
or French or British etc etc.

You make it sound like we were given free money

It was NOT free money as we played a part in the creation
of that money. We are benefactors of the EU because we helped
bring it about and make it the success it is....

How dare anyone suggest we Irish are basic spongers who have
relied on the EU for our very lives...

Absloute nonsense and an insult to all the great people
this island has produced who broke their bloody
backs in the past to give us what we have today....

We are every bit as hard working and deserving of 'aid'
as Germany, France etc etc.....Our aid, not free aid......

Mr.Micro

Sorry Walshb , I assume you are just having a laugh .We got millions from the EU since its early days ,I know it hardly shows in some parts of the country still. Prob in someones offshore accounts .

walshb

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Sorry Walshb , I assume you are just having a laugh .We got millions from the EU since its early days ,I know it hardly shows in some parts of the country still. Prob in someones offshore accounts .

Did I ever dispute this?
I said this money was hard earned and we as
a member of the EU damn well earned it.

We played a part in the creation of the EU and its success....

That cannot be disputed...

Handouts and freebies do NOT come into
the equation....

walshb

Does anyone seriously believe that the persons in Germany and France and Britain etc etc all just dug deep and gave the poor Irish a 'digout' for free...

Absolute crap to think we got EU money for free. It's EU money, not 'personal
loans' from Germans or French etc etc....

Our money just as much as their money...

We are all in the EU together and rules and conditions
apply to all member nations.....

DadaKopf

Did I ever dispute this?
I said this money was hard earned and we as
a member of the EU damn well earned it.

We played a part in the creation of the EU and its success....

That cannot be disputed...

Handouts and freebies do NOT come into
the equation....

Well, we joined in 1977 when the UK did. That was a strategic trade move. Then we drew down billions of pounds. Difference was, we spent it well. We played the game of being a model European state - a small state; the EU was driven by the UK, France, Germany and Italy. And don't forget the Marshall Aid Ireland got post-WWII.

Now, how does this differ from Africa? We say we're helping them integrate into the global economy, and therefore we offer these countries grants and loans to develop. But on the other hand, Africa has already contributed many multiples of this in the form of human and material resources extracted by colonialists and corporations over the past 200 years.

Our boom is Africa's loss.

You seriously think the petrol in your car is coming from well-paid oil workers in West Africa? No. It's coming from Western corporations and politicians dealing with corrupt politicans and local warlords. Just business. Just like when Belgium went around working Congolese to death on rubber plantations and gold mines, chopping their limbs off for minor disobediences. Charming.

walshb

DadaKopf wrote: »

Well, we joined in 1977 when the UK did. That was a strategic trade move. Then we drew down billions of pounds. Difference was, we spent it well. We played the game of being a model European state - a small state; the EU was driven by the UK, France, Germany and Italy. And don't forget the Marshall Aid Ireland got post-WWII.

Now, how does this differ from Africa? We say we're helping them integrate into the global economy, and therefore we offer these countries grants and loans to develop. But on the other hand, Africa has already contributed many multiples of this in the form of human and material resources extracted by colonialists and corporations over the past 200 years.

Our boom is Africa's loss.

You seriously think the petrol in your car is coming from well-paid oil workers in West Africa? No. It's coming from Western corporations and politicians dealing with corrupt politicans and local warlords. Just business. Just like when Belgium went around working Congolese to death on rubber plantations and gold mines, chopping their limbs off for minor disobediences. Charming.

Exactly, COLONIALISTS!!!!



So we pay for the sins of imperialst nations is that it?
WTF did we ever do on the Africans except throw
them money and bend over backwards to help them...

I'm sorry and this might sound harsh, but we don't owe Africa
a damn cent. Should we give aid, yes we should because
we are part of the WEST and the UN and we have
obligations to provide aid, as set out by the UN.

Do we as Ireland owe it to the Africans?
No we do not. It wasn't us who was colonising
and raping the lands of Africa for centuries....

jmayo

walshb wrote: »

Do you think we just sat on our holes and were given freebies for the past god knows how may years. Handouts my arse. We are one of the very first EU memebers and any money we got from the EU was not damn well free. We are the EU for gods sake. Irish people worked damn hard for anything the EU gave us. The damn cheek!!!!

Actually we only joined in 1973 so we were not one of the founding 6 members.
Also the only thing we really contributed back to the EU was our fishing rights which were sold out in order to be able to get CAP for farmers.
Fishermen were not as powerfgul a lobby as farmers and thus lost out.
Spain was one of the biggest beneficiaries of this policy.

Oh and next timne you are driving around the country take a look at all the EU sponsored roads.
To say we did not get handouts is stretching it.

walshb wrote: »

Does anyone seriously believe that the persons in Germany and France and Britain etc etc all just dug deep and gave the poor Irish a 'digout' for free...

Absolute crap to think we got EU money for free. It's EU money, not 'personal
loans' from Germans or French etc etc....

Our money just as much as their money...

We are all in the EU together and rules and conditions
apply to all member nations.....

Is it April 1st ? What is mine is mine and what is yours is mine eh ?
Ask the British, Dutch or German taxpayers if they are happy that they have contributed so much towards development aid to this and some other countries.
And yes it was money contributed by these countries, form their taxpayers, that found it's way to Ireland or did the EU fairies just magically make it materialise in Brussels ?
It has only been in the last few years that the tap has been turned off.
Remember Albert Reynolds fighting to get extra develoment funds.
Take a look at this.

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10003360.shtml

Are you saying we contributed 36 billion back to the EU ?

Back on topic, Africa will remain a mess as long as:
corrupt leaders are proped up by Western/Chinese/Russian governments
corrupt leaders are propeed up by multinationals trying to get their hands on natural resources and/or markets for weapons etc
the UN still remains an ineffective talking shop controlled by the above and run by spineless shi*es such as kofi annan
Africans themselves don't get rid of corrupt leaders and replace them with equally as corrupt individuals.

Other African countries are refusing to do anything to keep their neighbours in check e.g South Africa and Zimbabwe.

Just my tuppence worth.

walshb

jmayo wrote: »

Actually we only joined in 1973 so we were not one of the founding 6 members.
Also the only thing we really contributed back to the EU was our fishing rights which were sold out in order to be able to get CAP for farmers.
Fishermen were not as powerfgul a lobby as farmers and thus lost out.
Spain was one of the biggest beneficiaries of this policy.

Oh and next timne you are driving around the country take a look at all the EU sponsored roads.
To say we did not get handouts is stretching it.
Ask the British, Dutch or German taxpayers if they are happy that they have contributed so much towards development aid to this and some other countries.
And yes it was money contributed by these countries, form their taxpayers, that found it's way to Ireland or did the EU just magically make it materialise in Brussels ?
It has only been in the last few years that the tap has been turned off.
Remember Albert Reynolds fighting to get extra develoment funds.
Take a look at this.

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10003360.shtml

Are you saying we contributed 36 billion back to the EU ?

Back on topic, Africa will remain a mess as long as:
corrupt leaders are proped up by Western/Chinese/Russian governments
corrupt leaders are propeed up by multinationals trying to get their hands on natural resources and/or markets for weapons etc
the UN still remains an ineffective talking shop controlled by the above and run by spineless shi*es such as kofi annan
Africans themselves don't get rid of corrupt leaders and replace them with equally as corrupt individuals.

Other African countries are refusing to do anything to keep their neighbours in check e.g South Africa and Zimbabwe.

Just my tuppence worth.

Good post mate.
I am not saying how much we did
or did not contribute and I do not
doubt that as a nation we have benefitted
from EU money or aid or subsidy, whatever name
you want to put on it.

I am saying that as a nation we had more than
our fair share of trouble and that we earned
anything we ever got. We IMO did not
get silly little free handouts.

So we suddenly come into some money and all of a sudden
we are getting freebies and it's a disgrace and we should give back
to the international community etc etc..

We owe Africa nothing.
Maybe France and Britain who carved
Africa up over the years do owe them.

Ireland IMO does not.

Why can't Ireland not simply benefit from being
a member of the EU without Irish people suddenly
questioning the motives and reasons as to
why we benefitted.

It's like I said, we get a few bob and begin to prosper
in this country and you have the begrudgers out
in force wanting to take it away and using Africa as
an excuse.... "oh we're far too wealth now, enough
is enough, how dare you be wealthy and happy in Ireland, think
about the poor Africans"...that's the crap coming out
of people here in Ireland, the same people who wouldn't give their
neighbor a crust of bloody bread...

Bono and Geldof and Clinton and all these mega
rich people harassing the government to increase aid and increase
aid and increase what we pay in TAX for aid....

It's a black hole and nobody in Africa is actually being helped...

And the bottom line is that we are in the EU and why
should we NOT benefit from being in the EU. We are
entitled to. Does anyone think we simply demanded the money
and the French and Germans SH1T themselves and said yes lets's
give Ireland everything.

We didn't get anything from the EU that was NOT
approved by the EU, end of poxy story....

Fratton Fred

walshb wrote: »

Do we as Ireland owe it to the Africans?
No we do not. It wasn't us who was colonising
and raping the lands of Africa for centuries....

Yes it was, Ireland just had the convenience of doing it undr a different flag so they don't have to feel so guilty about it. Besides, what do I owe the poor people of Ireland who can't afford VHI, a roof over their head or their next shot of methodone? Why should I pay for them through my taxes?

It's called a society, it's just that some people are capable of thinking that extends outside of this island.

walshb

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Yes it was, Ireland just had the convenience of doing it undr a different flag so they don't have to feel so guilty about it. Besides, what do I owe the poor people of Ireland who can't afford VHI, a roof over their head or their next shot of methodone? Why should I pay for them through my taxes?

It's called a society, it's just that some people are capable of thinking that extends outside of this island.

Well if you really feel so strongly why don't you go emigrate to
Africa and actually do some on the ground work and alleviate their problems?

Or maybe you have emigrated to Africa, either way you will not sway me
into believing that Ireland has raped and pillaged from Africa for centuries...

And by some bizarre reason that it is true, then they are certainly getting
their own back now aren't they???

Fratton Fred

walshb wrote: »

Well if you really feel so strongly why don't you go emigrate to
Africa and actually do some on the ground work and alleviate their problems?

Or maybe you have emigrated to Africa, either way you will not sway me
into believing that Ireland has raped and pillaged from Africa for centuries...

And by some bizarre reason that it is true, then they are certainly getting
their own back now aren't they???

I'm not sure what skills I have that would help on the ground, so I keep my assistance limited to putting a few quid away each month.

Africans are only doing what the Irish have done for generations, emmigrating to make a better life for them selves.

jmayo

walshb wrote: »

Good post mate.
I am not saying how much we did or did not contribute and I do not
doubt that as a nation we have benefitted from EU money or aid or subsidy, whatever name you want to put on it.

I am saying that as a nation we had more than our fair share of trouble and that we earned anything we ever got. We IMO did not get silly little free handouts.

So we suddenly come into some money and all of a sudden we are getting freebies and it's a disgrace and we should give back to the international community etc etc..

We owe Africa nothing.
Maybe France and Britain who carved Africa up over the years do owe them.

Ireland IMO does not.

Why can't Ireland not simply benefit from being a member of the EU without Irish people suddenly questioning the motives and reasons as to why we benefitted.

It's like I said, we get a few bob and begin to prosper in this country and you have the begrudgers out in force wanting to take it away and using Africa as
an excuse.... "oh we're far too wealth now, enough is enough, how dare you be wealthy and happy in Ireland, think about the poor Africans"...that's the crap coming out of people here in Ireland, the same people who wouldn't give their neighbor a crust of bloody bread...

Bono and Geldof and Clinton and all these mega rich people harassing the government to increase aid and increase aid and increase what we pay in TAX for aid....

It's a black hole and nobody in Africa is actually being helped...

You did say we contributed, it was ours as muchs as theirs ?
We did get lots of handouts, yes handouts pure and simple.
Saying we earned it maybe because we had trouble is wrong.
Did we deserve it ? I don't know, maybe if it was our former coloniser contributing then yes.
Did we need it? Oh hell yes.

Do you believe that we shouldn't give back to the internaional community now that we are supposedly so rich ?

Do you believe that as EU nation we should contibute to Eastern European EU member states and help them like the orginal members helped us?

What I do agree on is this, I can't stand Bono droning on and chastising us as a nation.
If he pays full tax, doesn't get artists exemption, and then move his affairs to Holland then he can shout it from the rooftops, otherwise he should shut to f*** up.

Do you mind Africans coming to Europe and trying to make a better like for themselves and possibly sending money home to help their families?

walshb

jmayo wrote: »

You did say we contributed, it was ours as muchs as theirs ?
We did get lots of handouts, yes handouts pure and simple.
Saying we earned it maybe because we had trouble is wrong.
Did we deserve it ? I don't know, maybe if it was our former coloniser contributing then yes.
Did we need it? Oh hell yes.

Do you believe that we shouldn't give back to the internaional community now that we are supposedly so rich ?

Do you believe that as EU nation we should contibute to Eastern European EU member states and help them like the orginal members helped us?

What I do agree on is this, I can't stand Bono droning on and chastising us as a nation.
If he pays full tax, doesn't get artists exemption, and then move his affairs to Holland then he can shout it from the rooftops, otherwise he should shut to f*** up.

Why do I get the feeling that you would not like foreigners coming here and taking our jobs either?
Do you mind Africans coming to Europe and trying to make a better like for themselves and possibly sending money home to help their families?

Ok, let's say we did get handouts and freebies just for arguements sake.
Is that our fault?
Should we feel guilty?
We joined the EU and if that's what the EU
approved, why shouldn't we avail, like other nations have availed??
We certainly did contribute as the table clearly
shows. Did we receive more back? Yes it seems so, but
so too did other countries. Don't tell me for one minute
that the Irish got the bulk and that the Irish somehow got money
that they didn't need or deserve. As you said, we did definitely need it.

I am trying to compromise here. We benefitted no doubt, but we are a member of the EU who contributed to the EU and
we should not in anyway be mocked or made to feel
guilty because we received monies from what is effectively
the BANK of all the member states...

Ireland was given no preferential treatment and we didn't
get any monies from OUR EU that we didn't deserve...

That's it in a nutshell....

I have said time and time again that yes we should aid less fortunate countries and we do aid them. We are part of the UN and the WEST and this
is what has been set out.

My gripe is that certain establishments and people are
harassing and lecturing on this issue far too much and
are trying to make Irish people feel guilty about having a few
damn luxuries....

jmayo

walshb wrote: »

Ok, let's say we did get handouts and freebies just for arguements sake.
Is that our fault?
Should we feel guilty?
....

I am trying to compromise here. We benefitted no doubt, but we are a member of the EU who contributed to the EU and we should not in anyway be mocked or made to feel guilty because we received monies from what is effectively the BANK of all the member states...

Ireland was given no preferential treatment and we didn't get any monies from OUR EU that we didn't deserve...

That's it in a nutshell....

My gripe is that certain establishments and people are harassing and lecturing on this issue far too much and are trying to make Irish people feel guilty about having a few damn luxuries....

We were given preferential treatment by EU and we pushed to get it extended.

No we shouldn't feel guilty but we owe to it our benefactors, yes that is how I would see the other EU countries that agreed to let so have so much funds, to make the best use of the money and to remember we were less fortunate and given a dig out.
Then we should help other developing regions, both within EU and overseas.

I see it like the whole immigration issue. We were once the down trodden emigrants (no dogs or Irish was common saying in UK) so we should now remember that when somebody sounds off about people coming here taking our jobs. We should learn from our own history and remember it wasn't so long ago that we were the ones that had very little.

I do agree with you that you get lots of very priviledged people (actors, musicians, etc) telling the less well off how they should contribute more.
That is why I admire people like the Irish guy that sold his software company in US and went off and started a fund with his own money, that he now manages that directly helps people in Africa. He keeps an eye on everything and he makes sure his money is not wasted by organistaions or corrupt leaders.

The problem with Africa is that it seems a bottomless pit of war, disease, famine. They have blown their resources and have turned what should have been propserous countries into killing fields. And yes they had lots of help from the West in achieving this.

What to do about it?
Well a start would be forcing some half decent African countries to put the squeeze on their misbehaving neighbours.

walshb

jmayo wrote: »

We were given preferential treatment by EU and we pushed to get it extended.

No we shouldn't feel guilty but we owe to it our benefactors, yes that is how I would see the other EU countries that agreed to let so have so much funds, to make the best use of the money and to remember we were less fortunate and given a dig out.
Then we should help other developing regions, both within EU and overseas.

I see it like the whole immigration issue. We were once the down trodden emigrants (no dogs or Irish was common saying in UK) so we should now remember that when somebody sounds off about people coming here taking our jobs. We should learn from our own history and remember it wasn't so long ago that we were the ones that had very little.

I do agree with you that you get lots of very priviledged people (actors, musicians, etc) telling the less well off how they should contribute more.
That is why I admire people like the Irish guy that sold his software company in US and went off and started a fund with his own money, that he now manages that directly helps people in Africa. He keeps an eye on everything and he makes sure his money is not wasted by organistaions or corrupt leaders.

The problem with Africa is that it seems a bottomless pit of war, disease, famine. They have blown their resources and have turned what should have been propserous countries into killing fields. And yes they had lots of help from the West in achieving this.

What to do about it?
Well a start would be forcing some half decent African countries to put the squeeze on their misbehaving neighbours.

Preferential treatment?
That's quite subjective really
How were we given this?
Did we skip the queue or something?
We surely didn't rob the monies did we?
Did we bribe the other nations?
To be honest, a claim like that
is close on impossible to prove.

We needed funds, applied for funds, and funds were
approved by the members. How can that be interpreted
as preferential treatment.....

Did we break any rules or ethical codes???

I doubt it....

You mention this Irish guy in the US?

Who is he and what has he done for Ireland?

Has he a history of helping his own neighbor
here first.

Maybe he has done all he can in Ireland and
if so, fair play to him, go and save the world.

I am just quite suspicious of the genuinity of some
of these so called charity crusaders who are trotting
all over the world to do 'good' and have done
pretty much nothing in their local community...

I am not saying he is one of them as I don't
know who exactly he is yet!!!

Tricity Bendix

walshb wrote: »

We owe Africa nothing.

What does 'owing' have to do with this? Maybe we do owe Africa something for the years of colonial abuse or for our own harmful agricultural policies, but that really shouldn't have anything to do with aid. It is worth giving aid simply because there are people out there who are far, far worse off than the most miserable cretin in Ireland.

It's a black hole and nobody in Africa is actually being helped...

I would love to see you say that to the face of someone who is receiving antiretroviral drugs paid for by IrishAid.

walshb

That's a lovely way to describe your fellow Irish person...

That says it all really......

Sure he/she is just a miserable Irish cretin, why should
we care for them, it's the Africans that need us....

Tricity Bendix

walshb wrote: »

That's a lovely way to describe your fellow Irish person...

That says it all really......

Sure he/she is just a miserable Irish cretin, why should
we care for them, it's the Africans that need us....

Do you always just selectively hear things, or is it just when it suits you in an argument?

bonkey

walshb wrote: »

Ok, let's say we did get handouts and freebies just for arguements sake.
Is that our fault?
Should we feel guilty?
We joined the EU and if that's what the EU
approved, why shouldn't we avail, like other nations have availed??
We certainly did contribute as the table clearly
shows. Did we receive more back? Yes it seems so, but
so too did other countries. Don't tell me for one minute
that the Irish got the bulk and that the Irish somehow got money
that they didn't need or deserve. As you said, we did definitely need it.

I am trying to compromise here. We benefitted no doubt, but we are a member of the EU who contributed to the EU and
we should not in anyway be mocked or made to feel
guilty because we received monies from what is effectively
the BANK of all the member states...

Ireland was given no preferential treatment and we didn't
get any monies from OUR EU that we didn't deserve...

That's it in a nutshell....

Thats it in a nutshell....up to the current point in time.

Ireland, today, is expected to become more and more of a net contributor to the EU. Now that we class as one of the wealthier nations, our contributions to less-well-off member-nations are expected to significantly exsceed any monies we still receive. Indeed, should out good fortune continue for (say) another 30 years, it is pretty-much certain that we will pay - in total - far, far more than we ever received.

I assume you wholeheartedly support other EU member nations receiving the monies they are entitled to from us? I assume that when we are paying more to EU nations annually than the 800-odd million that you're up in arms about here that you will be standing up and applauding our letting those poorer nations have their fair share of our money.

My gripe is that certain establishments and people are
harassing and lecturing on this issue far too much and
are trying to make Irish people feel guilty about having a few
damn luxuries....

No...they're trying to make Irish people feel guilty about having a few luxuries while complaining that they cannot afford to help someone else stay alive. If you think that being able to have an extra pint on a Friday night is worth someone in Africa dying...then you deserve a guilt-trip.

walshb

bonkey wrote: »

Thats it in a nutshell....up to the current point in time.

Ireland, today, is expected to become more and more of a net contributor to the EU. Now that we class as one of the wealthier nations, our contributions to less-well-off member-nations are expected to significantly exsceed any monies we still receive. Indeed, should out good fortune continue for (say) another 30 years, it is pretty-much certain that we will pay - in total - far, far more than we ever received.

I assume you wholeheartedly support other EU member nations receiving the monies they are entitled to from us? I assume that when we are paying more to EU nations annually than the 800-odd million that you're up in arms about here that you will be standing up and applauding our letting those poorer nations have their fair share of our money.



No...they're trying to make Irish people feel guilty about having a few luxuries while complaining that they cannot afford to help someone else stay alive. If you think that being able to have an extra pint on a Friday night is worth someone in Africa dying...then you deserve a guilt-trip.

The EU has rules and regulations that all states abide by and we are members.
If we have to contribute, so be it. We are part of the EU and that is that.
WE have benefitted, as have others and others in the
future, including us. We can't be part of the EU if we don't abide
by the rules.....

jonny72

walshb wrote: »

The EU has rules and regulations that all states abide by and we are members.
If we have to contribute, so be it. We are part of the EU and that is that.
WE have benefitted, as have others and others in the
future, including us. We can't be part of the EU if we don't abide
by the rules.....

No, now we are in the "everyone give .7% to Africa" (I believe the target is actually higher?) club and we have to abide by the rules..

Your argument doesn't stand for one second, anywhere, its a personal rant, that's it.

The African people have been screwed over for centuries by the West and are still being screwed over, we owe this to them at the very least.

walshb

jonny72 wrote: »

No, now we are in the "everyone give .7% to Africa" (I believe the target is actually higher?) club and we have to abide by the rules..

Your argument doesn't stand for one second, anywhere, its a personal rant, that's it.

The African people have been screwed over for centuries by the West and are still being screwed over, we owe this to them at the very least.

Again, that is your opinion. I for one never screwed over any person, let alone an
African and I am quite confident that Ireland has never screwed over Africa at
any time in history....all just your opinion....We owe Africa zero, we as in Ireland.
We give them a lot and that's down to the UN and the international community
as a whole but nobody will convince me that we actually owe them...