Slash foreign aid contribution

Mr.Micro

walshb wrote: »

Did I ever dispute this?
I said this money was hard earned and we as
a member of the EU damn well earned it.

We played a part in the creation of the EU and its success....

That cannot be disputed...

Handouts and freebies do NOT come into
the equation....

Now come on Walshb ,dont be silly .Ireland contributed what to the EU ?We had no economy,no jobs and poverty and emigration .All this only really changed within last 10 to 12 years .We mostly just took up to that point . Even now that we will have to contribute more to help poorer EU members we are not happy to do that .It was the EU that saved us.

gillyfromlyre

well said walshb, has africa improved over the last 20 years, has africa got worse over the last 20 years? you could sell your house tomorrow, donate the lot and africa wont change. We are putting Africans up in hotels here, they all have free cars (not admitted by ff), free phones, free transport, free medical care etc, and people are still saying the ordinary irish person should not complain that 815 million is being sent to buy guns for african warlords

DadaKopf

They don't have any of those things and you know it.

gillyfromlyre

Mr Micro, the Irish were never a begging economy, I think its a testament to our character that we are where we are today. How about a tribute to the Choctaw tribe of American Indians who in 1847 sent a donation of £710, the equivalent of more than £100,000 today. They had a special affinity with the hungry and those who had lost their homes, since it was only 16 years since their tribe had walked the "Trail of Tears" from Oklahoma to Mississippi, along which many of them died

gillyfromlyre

DadaKopf wrote: »

They don't have any of those things and you know it.

do you live in ireland?

gbh

The EU money was structural funds. It was an investment by the EU and its bigger countries in the infrastructure of Ireland so that they could send over their supermarkets and companies to do business here and drive around on the sort of autobahn they had back home.

The EU is now giving structural funds to the Eastern bloc countries for the same reason, to improve their infrastructure, education and capacity. To get this structual money you have to first become a member of the EU. To become a member of the EU you must comply with strict entry criteria. The EU aren't stupid or like throwing their money away. They know that if you let in a country where corruption is common place, democracy is weak, no free press, bribery the norm not the exception, then you might as well kiss goodbye to your structural funds as they will be siphoned off to secret bank accounts or used for kick backs.

That is the difference here. Ireland was givin EU money but every cent received I'm sure was accounted for and you can see the evidence of the money all around in buildings, education grants, roads, etc, in fact you can't miss the evidence. Because every penny received was spent wisely in EU approved projects it benefitted the many there was transparancy and we had a proper mature democracy.

Its pointless investing money in most parts of Africa cause there is a good chance you will never see the returns. After 40 or so years giving Aid to Africa because of the dire political situation, aid or investment has made no difference because of the corrupt political systems that exist in those countries.

I have no objection to spending 800 million a year. But I really think you could contribute 80 billion a year or 800 billion a year and you wouldn't see any returns. Because the type of Aid we give doesn't build long term capacity like the EU third level education grants did. And that's the key, helping Africans build capacity and the ability to solve their own problems rather than pitying them and giving them handouts.

djpbarry

gillyfromlyre wrote: »

We are putting Africans up in hotels here, they all have free cars (not admitted by ff), free phones, free transport, free medical care etc, and people are still saying the ordinary irish person should not complain that 815 million is being sent to buy guns for african warlords

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're also having schools built for them, white people have to wear shoe polish on their faces so they don't feel homesick, Longford is being renamed “New Nigeria”...

Got any facts to back any of that up? Didn't think so... :rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

gbh wrote: »

The EU money was structural funds. It was an investment by the EU and its bigger countries in the infrastructure of Ireland so that they could send over their supermarkets and companies to do business here and drive around on the sort of autobahn they had back home.

oh, so the EU gave Ireland €40bn for purely selfish reasons and the Brits, Germans, Dutch etc should be grateful to the Irish for letting them do so. That's hilarious

gbh wrote: »

That is the difference here. Ireland was givin EU money but every cent received I'm sure was accounted for

Not quite yet, but we'll see what the final repot is from the Mahon enquiry shall we.

Remind me again, which country is considered the most corrupt in the EU?

sovtek

walshb wrote: »

We owe Africa zero, we as in Ireland.

Athlone, Sea Point, Blessington, Bellville, Killarney...all towns in Ireland? No all names of towns in southern africa.
No you don't owe them anything...
Ever see one of these signs
"Buy overseas property in:
Cape Town" etc etc

sovtek

gbh wrote: »

That is the difference here. Ireland was givin EU money but every cent received I'm sure was accounted for and you can see the evidence of the money all around in buildings, education grants, roads,

Where are these roads of whence you speak? I had to read the whole thing to realize you were serious.

jmayo

walshb wrote: »

...
You mention this Irish guy in the US?

Who is he and what has he done for Ireland?

Has he a history of helping his own neighbor here first.

Maybe he has done all he can in Ireland and if so, fair play to him, go and save the world.

I am just quite suspicious of the genuinity of some of these so called charity crusaders who are trotting all over the world to do 'good' and have done
pretty much nothing in their local community...

I am not saying he is one of them as I don't know who exactly he is yet!!!

We were famous for having the begging bowl in Brussels.
We did get more funds than anyone else so I would say that is preferential.
Just because we didn't rob or blackmail somebody to get the money to build a lot of our roads/bypasses isn't a lot to be proud of.
Now that we are paying back people start complaining.

The Irish guys name is Philip Berber.
And no he didn't do stuff here because he had emigrated like a lot of people had to do up until the last 10 years.
He had emigrated to the US where he founded his financial software company, CyBerCorp in Austin, Texas.
He became a multimillionaire overnight when he sold his company,
He then decided to put alot of the money into a fund, A Glimmer of Hope, which he and his wife administer.
http://www.aglimmerofhope.org/
They actually do work on the ground in villages in Africa.

I was wondering how long it would take before someone came on here and started the usual thing about immigrants getting this, that and the other.
Maybe a lot of them are here because they are trying to build a better life for themselves just like most of us, or our ancestors before us had to do.
Yes you will get the wasters, just like UK got the "Paddies and Micks" who were over on the dole and drunk out of their skulls.
As I said before people here should remember we were less fortunate ourselves but hell no it now seems to be "I am alright jack so screw the lot of ye".
And that appplies to those less fortunate at home as well as for those overseas.

walshb

jmayo wrote: »

We were famous for having the begging bowl in Brussels.
We did get more funds than anyone else so I would say that is preferential.
Just because we didn't rob or blackmail somebody to get the money to build a lot of our roads/bypasses isn't a lot to be proud of.
Now that we are paying back people start complaining.

The Irish guys name is Philip Berber.
And no he didn't do stuff here because he had emigrated like a lot of people had to do up until the last 10 years.
He had emigrated to the US where he founded his financial software company, CyBerCorp in Austin, Texas.
He became a multimillionaire overnight when he sold his company,
He then decided to put alot of the money into a fund, A Glimmer of Hope, which he and his wife administer.
http://www.aglimmerofhope.org/
They actually do work on the ground in villages in Africa.

I was wondering how long it would take before someone came on here and started the usual thing about immigrants getting this, that and the other.
Maybe a lot of them are here because they are trying to build a better life for themselves just like most of us, or our ancestors before us had to do.
Yes you will get the wasters, just like UK got the "Paddies and Micks" who were over on the dole and drunk out of their skulls.
As I said before people here should remember we were less fortunate ourselves but hell no it now seems to be "I am alright jack so screw the lot of ye".
And that appplies to those less fortunate at home as well as for those overseas.

You say now that we are paying back, people are complaining??
We are contributing, just like we always have been.
It's you who is complaining that we were supposedly getting
handouts and that we were beggars. You are the one complaining and
you have proved my point about Irish people who when we have a little
success and prosperity, they aren't happy and begrudge us
our few luxuries....

Like I said, we were approved the monies we got by the
member nations. Can't you just accept that and also accept
that we got nothing for nothing. All monies received was well
spent and damn well accounted for. I do not believe for a second
that the British and French and Germans 'wasted' money on the Irish...

Ireland was never a nation of beggars and worked hard and died
for its prosperity.

We got nothing easy as far as I know. At least not in
my time or my parents time...

No Irish minister ever gave me a blank cheque, a free house or a crust
of bloody bread. Anything I ever got I earned and that applies to the
vast vast vast majority of Irish taxpayers....

Yes maybe we do have a lot to be thankful for regarding the EU, but so does every bloody member. We're all in the same club and we all damn well
contribute.....

We may very well owe a lot to the EU, but we owe nothing to Africa...

I still feel that yes we should donate, but I will not be made
feel guilty by any charity crusader or minister or rock star that
I somehow owe it to the Africans......

Mr.Micro

gillyfromlyre wrote: »

Mr Micro, the Irish were never a begging economy, I think its a testament to our character that we are where we are today. How about a tribute to the Choctaw tribe of American Indians who in 1847 sent a donation of £710, the equivalent of more than £100,000 today. They had a special affinity with the hungry and those who had lost their homes, since it was only 16 years since their tribe had walked the "Trail of Tears" from Oklahoma to Mississippi, along which many of them died

Such a gesture from the Choctaw tribe was admirable,no dispute. Our country is the way it is through Irish resilience and through all the Irish working abroad sending money home in the past.Thats what kept the country afloat down though the decades and all the grants we got from the EU and our own tiger in the last 12 years . Ireland is still seen a corrupt country from Co.Council level up .Much of our wealth has been squandered and plundered.

walshb

DadaKopf wrote: »

They don't have any of those things and you know it.

How would you know?
It's been well documented that a lot of the
refugees and asylum seekers are here purely
for the generous welfare system.
It's also been widely reported that a lot aren't even
residing in the STATE and are still benefitting
from payments to them from the welfare system.
I am not saying all of them, but still a good lot and good
lot too much...

It has been reported and verified that Eastern Europeans
have been flying here once a month to collect their welfare payments and then straight
back to their home country...

So this crap that we were beggars and got so much from the EU, well it certainly
is going a long long way, isn't it. Don't tell me for a second that
it hasn't been paid bloody back....

Mr.Micro

Any major development in Ireland was /is funded by EU grants fact .Where would we have got the money from ?We just exported people and cattle.

Mrs Roy Keane

micmclo wrote: »

Afaik, we are commited to giving 0.7% of GBP in foreign aid.
Did we commit to a treaty or can we go back on this?

According to this link, Ireland spent 815 million euro in 2007 on foreign aid. Seems a collasal sum to me and I'm wondering who it be better spent at home on education or the health service.
http://www.rte.ie/arts/2007/1116/bono.html

Where that money goes and does it get swallowed by corruption, I don't realy know.
But there is no doubt that some of that money is wasted and ends up in a Swiss bank account.
And we have given money since before Live Aid and we can give money for the next twenty years but I don't see the problems going away.
Maybe let the former colonial powers take more responsibility if you feel it is our duty to help.

So, imo if you want to give to charity it should an individual choice and when you pay taxes it's a reasonable expectation the government will spend them in the state or in the EU. We never got a choice on this.

I fully expect to be flamed by some but it's an interesting topic, any opinions?

Charity begins at home so put the money back into Ireland

jonny72

walshb wrote: »

You say now that we are paying back, people are complaining??
We are contributing, just like we always have been.
It's you who is complaining that we were supposedly getting
handouts and that we were beggars. You are the one complaining and
you have proved my point about Irish people who when we have a little
success and prosperity, they aren't happy and begrudge us
our few luxuries....

Like I said, we were approved the monies we got by the
member nations. Can't you just accept that and also accept
that we got nothing for nothing. All monies received was well
spent and damn well accounted for. I do not believe for a second
that the British and French and Germans 'wasted' money on the Irish...

Ireland was never a nation of beggars and worked hard and died
for its prosperity.

We got nothing easy as far as I know. At least not in
my time or my parents time...

No Irish minister ever gave me a blank cheque, a free house or a crust
of bloody bread. Anything I ever got I earned and that applies to the
vast vast vast majority of Irish taxpayers....

Yes maybe we do have a lot to be thankful for regarding the EU, but so does every bloody member. We're all in the same club and we all damn well
contribute.....

We may very well owe a lot to the EU, but we owe nothing to Africa...

I still feel that yes we should donate, but I will not be made
feel guilty by any charity crusader or minister or rock star that
I somehow owe it to the Africans......

Repeating the same thing over and over and over doesn't make it true. I don't know where on earth you got your false romanticised view of Ireland from, but eh, we'd still be living in the eighties if it wasn't for HANDOUTS from the EU. Go visit Africa, go read a few books, go watch a few documentaries, maybe that will enlighten you. Once again the irony of someone whinging on a messageboard about those people who are too poor to whinge on messageboards does not escape me. For one second you almost make it sound like we in Ireland somehow have had worse more harsh lives than those in Africa..

You keep harping on, Irish people this, Irish people that, Irish culture this, when the fact of the matter is, Irish people are generous and we don't whinge when we decide to give to Africa. You are the only one breaking the mold here as far as I can see.

djpbarry

walshb wrote: »

It's been well documented that a lot of the refugees and asylum seekers are here purely for the generous welfare system.

Right... :rolleyes:

This statement shows a complete lack of understanding of the asylum process.

walshb wrote: »

It's also been widely reported that a lot aren't even residing in the STATE and are still benefitting from payments to them from the welfare system.

Nonsense.

walshb wrote: »

It has been reported and verified that Eastern Europeans have been flying here once a month to collect their welfare payments and then straight back to their home country...

Sources?

Mrs Roy Keane wrote: »

Charity begins at home so put the money back into Ireland

Where? Billions of euros is already being pumped into public spending and it's not yielding results.

walshb

jonny72 wrote: »

Repeating the same thing over and over and over doesn't make it true. I don't know where on earth you got your false romanticised view of Ireland from, but eh, we'd still be living in the eighties if it wasn't for HANDOUTS from the EU. Go visit Africa, go read a few books, go watch a few documentaries, maybe that will enlighten you. Once again the irony of someone whinging on a messageboard about those people who are too poor to whinge on messageboards does not escape me. For one second you almost make it sound like we in Ireland somehow have had worse more harsh lives than those in Africa..

You keep harping on, Irish people this, Irish people that, Irish culture this, when the fact of the matter is, Irish people are generous and we don't whinge when we decide to give to Africa. You are the only one breaking the mold here as far as I can see.

Simple question?
Do we OWE Africa charity?
I mean we as in Ireland.....

Are we worse off than Africans. I would say no and I never said we were.

Do we donate generously?
Definitely yes?

Should we donate?
Yes

Are we genuinely caring towards the plight of Africans?
Now there's the real question.
I think NOT....

Have we sponged from the EU?
No..

Did we receive lots of money from the EU
Yes

Did we deserve it and was the money accountable and approved?
YES YES YES.......

So quit the whinging about Ireland receiving money from a club we are
part of and have made so successful....

Mr.Micro

Walshb are we going to contribute to the development of other poorer EU members ? What is wrong with helping our fellow man if we wish to whether they be in Africa or wherever .? Overseas aid is part and parcel of modern forward looking countries .We should be happy ,(and in the most part Irish people are) to be in a comfortable postion that the Government can help with aid. With regards to deserving all that EU money ,where did much of it go ,to farmers not to the general population,and some infrastructure.Much of it was put to un approved purposes,misappropriated etc .

walshb

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Walshb are we going to contribute to the development of other poorer EU members ? What is wrong with helping our fellow man if we wish to whether they be in Africa or wherever .? Overseas aid is part and parcel of modern forward looking countries .We should be happy ,(and in the most part Irish people are) to be in a comfortable postion that the Government can help with aid. With regards to deserving all that EU money ,where did much of it go ,to farmers not to the general population,and some infrastructure.Much of it was put to un approved purposes,misappropriated etc .

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with helping our fellow man. But there is also nothing wrong with we as Irish enjoying our success and congratulating ourselves on any bit of wealth or prosperity we happen to obtain, without being made feel guilty or without being lectured on how we got it, who we screwed for it and why we should 'give it back'.
I am hearing on this thread that we have destroyed Africa and that we OWE it to the Africans?

IMO Ireland destroyed no nation at all and we actually worked extremely hard and with some help from our fellow EU members. Are we contributing to the EU, yes we are and we have been for a long time....

And I should be able to go out any night and enjoy a pint without some do gooder begrudging me this luxury and using some starving African child as an excuse to extort money from me.

We all pay our taxes and we are all doing our bit to help alleviate poverty in Africa.

Let's leave it at that.

But to some, it's just NOT enough and they will not be happy
until you are practically broke and destitute..

When do we say, enough is enough and we have to get realistic
about third world poverty...

The endless throwing of money at the problem and taxing
the locals here to give to Africa cannot go on..

We donate and we donate generously but some still
believe we aren't giving enough...

djpbarry

walshb wrote: »

Do we OWE Africa charity?

Yes we do. We (as a nation) have been exploiting African nations for a long time now and the EU (that club that you're so fond of) is currently trying to push through even more unfair trade rules:

http://www.maketradefair.com/en/index.php?file=email_socrates.htm

On the subject of charitable donations, you seem to be totally against the idea of an Irish citizen helping any non-Irish person until they have first assisted an Irish person in some way. Well, I don't know anyone in Ireland who is worse off than these guys:

http://www.textually.org/textually/archives/archives/images/set2/Darfur_Destroyed.jpg

walshb wrote: »

We all pay our taxes and we are all doing our bit to help alleviate poverty in Africa

How are you doing your bit exactly?

It would be nice if you could include some sources and facts in your rant...

walshb

djpbarry wrote: »

Yes we do. We (as a nation) have been exploiting African nations for a long time now and the EU (that club that you're so fond of) is currently trying to push through even more unfair trade rules:

http://www.maketradefair.com/en/index.php?file=email_socrates.htm

On the subject of charitable donations, you seem to be totally against the idea of an Irish citizen helping any non-Irish person until they have first assisted an Irish person in some way. Well, I don't know anyone in Ireland who is worse off than these guys:

http://www.textually.org/textually/archives/archives/images/set2/Darfur_Destroyed.jpg

How are you doing your bit exactly?

It would be nice if you could include some sources and facts in your rant...

How am I doing my bit?
Where the hell do you think 800 million came from?
Did it just find its way into the government coffers?

I may not be as charitable as Mr Mellon or Bono or Geldof,
but don't try tell me that Irish taxpayers aren't doing
their bit....

And at least the weather is decent over there

Morlar

djpbarry wrote: »

We (as a nation) have been exploiting African nations for a long time now

djpbarry wrote: »

It would be nice if you could include some sources and facts in your rant...

How are Ireland exploiting african nations ? Which ones are we exploiting and can you give examples ?

Or do you mean in some indirect manner - along the lines of we are part of europe and therefore . . . . . .or we are part of 'the west' and have a collective responsibility for x.y.z Do you have any examples of Ireland directly exploiting african nations ?

walshb

Morlar wrote: »

How are Ireland exploiting african nations ? Which ones are we exploiting and can you give examples ?

Or do you mean in some indirect manner - along the lines of we are part of europe and therefore . . . . . .or we are part of 'the west' and have a collective responsibility for x.y.z Do you have any examples of Ireland directly exploiting african nations ?

I was thinking the exact same thing......absolute baloney IMO....
Ireland exploiting Africa??

Are we exploiting them in the Olympic games too, when we barely get a medal and they come home
with GOLD, GOLD, GOLD.......

That's really some exploitation isn't it???

Mr.Micro

If exploitation does happen then it is part and parcel of business worldwide where companies try to get better margins .Economies would not exist if there was no exploitation .I do not believe that a decent nation would exploit poorer nations ,some businesses or corporations maybe.

walshb

Mr.Micro wrote: »

If exploitation does happen then it is part and parcel of business worldwide where companies try to get better margins .Economies would not exist if there was no exploitation .I do not believe that a decent nation would exploit poorer nations ,some businesses or corporations maybe.

One of the more sensible things said on this thread I must admit.

moe_sizlak

walshb wrote: »

Simple question?
Do we OWE Africa charity?
I mean we as in Ireland.....

Are we worse off than Africans. I would say no and I never said we were.

Do we donate generously?
Definitely yes?

Should we donate?
Yes

Are we genuinely caring towards the plight of Africans?
Now there's the real question.
I think NOT....

Have we sponged from the EU?
No..

Did we receive lots of money from the EU
Yes

Did we deserve it and was the money accountable and approved?
YES YES YES.......

So quit the whinging about Ireland receiving money from a club we are
part of and have made so successful....

to answer your question , do we owe africa anything , well the goverment donates a small amount of the states coffers each yr towards aid , do you personally have to pay money to a charity that benefits africa , of course you dont , you have to pay for a pint of milk in the shop , you have to pay the esb bill and you have to pay tax if you earning over 18 k a yr or something but you personally dont have to donate money , now judging from your numerous posts , you sem to be annoyed at a few things , you seem annoyed that your goverment is spending any of your tax on aid to africa , if you want to do anything about that , i suggest you contact your local td or perhaps even run for office yourself on that issue , its not hard to run for the local elections and who knows where you could go from there

but judging from your posts , your main gripe appears to be that you dont like being made feel guilty about africans being poor and you dont like being urged by bono and others to donate , your obviously a very sensitive person if this causes you annoyance and encourages you to go on the internet and express your pain over it , im not sure what you can do about this other than perhaps as soon as you see an add on tv with a black baby skin and bones from hunger , just reach for the remote quickly and perhaps the awfull intrusion on your mind will quickly pass

jmayo

walshb wrote: »

Simple question?

Have we sponged from the EU?
No..

Did we receive lots of money from the EU
Yes

Did we deserve it and was the money accountable and approved?
YES YES YES.......

So quit the whinging about Ireland receiving money from a club we are
part of and have made so successful....

I am not whinging Ireland received money from the EU, we should be damm grateful because we are only now beginning to stand on our own two feet as a nation.
I am whinging about people that think we deserved everything we ever got becuase we worked hard for it and died for it ?

I am trying to correct your misconeceptions that :

1. the money was from some great EU pot and not contributed by other EU countries taxpayers.
What if some of the EU countries that contributed most of these funds had listened to their right wing policticans and said screw the Irish, we owe them nothing?
After all the French or Dutch had never done anything to us now had they?
Yes we got it after lobbying other governments and the EU institutions.

2. that we deserved it.
What made us deserve it such much ?
Yes we were poor structurally, industrially, fianically, envirnomentally etc but so are the Africans so should they be allowed into EU and get money from it.

3. that we contributed so much.
We were not a net contributor up until the last few years so we still have done better out of it and we should be grateful and remember that.

You appear to think we deserved the funds just because we were Irish and part of EU club.
Someone has to contribute the money in the first place.
If the well off member states took your attitude then we would have got f all.

How did we make the EU so successful, well apart from Bertie making up the EU consititution that no voter will agree to because it ihis usual fudge and sending P Flynn to Brussels ?

Now I think we can move on from EU grants and development funds since we no longer really get them.
We are rich now, or at least that'swhat bertie told us ?

walshb wrote: »

Are we exploiting them in the Olympic games too, when we barely get a medal and they come home
with GOLD, GOLD, GOLD.......

That's really some exploitation isn't it???

Oh my God :rolleyes:
Ah sure a few Kenyans manage to dominate the Olympic steeple chase so screw the ones dying of Aids.

As I have written above, the funny thing is I do agree with you that there are some eejits that do grate on you becuase they have their holier than thou attitude.
But you get that with environmentalists as well and lets not go there now

walshb

moe_sizlak wrote: »

to answer your question , do we owe africa anything , well the goverment donates a small amount of the states coffers each yr towards aid , do you personally have to pay money to a charity that benefits africa , of course you dont , you have to pay for a pint of milk in the shop , you have to pay the esb bill and you have to pay tax if you earning over 18 k a yr or something but you personally dont have to donate money , now judging from your numerous posts , you sem to be annoyed at a few things , you seem annoyed that your goverment is spending any of your tax on aid to africa , if you want to do anything about that , i suggest you contact your local td or perhaps even run for office yourself on that issue , its not hard to run for the local elections and who knows where you could go from there

but judging from your posts , your main gripe appears to be that you dont like being made feel guilty about africans being poor and you dont like being urged by bono and others to donate , your obviously a very sensitive person if this causes you annoyance and encourages you to go on the internet and express your pain over it , im not sure what you can do about this other than perhaps as soon as you see an add on tv with a black baby skin and bones from hunger , just reach for the remote quickly and perhaps the awfull intrusion on your mind will quickly pass

I'm not sure what to make of that. A little too incoherent for my taste.
I didn't post this thread by the way. So I didn't start the debate.....