Slash foreign aid contribution

walshb

jmayo wrote: »

I am not whinging Ireland received money from the EU, we should be damm grateful because we are only now beginning to stand on our own two feet as a nation.
I am whinging about people that think we deserved everything we ever got becuase we worked hard for it and died for it ?

I am trying to correct your total misconeception that :

1. the money was from some great EU pot and not contributed by other EU countries taxpayers. What if some of the EU countries that contributed most of these funds had listened to their right wing policticans and said screw the Irish, we owe them nothing. After all the French or Dutch had never done anything to us now had they?
Yes we got it after lobbying other governments and the EU institutions.

2. that we deserved it, what made us deserve it such much.
Yes we were poor structurally, industrially, fianically, envirnomentally etc but so are the Africans so should they be allowed into EU and get money from it.

3. that we contributed so much. We were not a net contributor up until the last few years so we still have done better out of it and we should be grateful and remember that.

You appear to think we deserved the funds just because we were Irish and part of EU.

How did we make the EU so successful, well apart from Bertie making up the EU consititution and sending PFlynn to Brussels ?



Oh my God :rolleyes:
Ah sure a few Kenyans manage to dominate the Olympic steeple chase so screw the ones dying of Aids.

As I have written above, the funny thing is I do agree with you that there are some eejits that do grate on you becuase they have their holier than thou attitude.
But you get that with environmentalists as well and not lets go there now

Mate, I think we'll just agree to disagree on this one.....
And I do not begrudge any African or any
person destitute, receiving help and aid.
That includes all persons, whether they are African or otherwise....

jmayo

Just to go off on little tangent can anyone tell us what our UN contribution is in monetary terms.
I know we did get money form peacekeeping operations but what do we have to contribute?

djpbarry

walshb wrote: »

How am I doing my bit?
Where the hell do you think 800 million came from?

Would this be the €815 million that you have been whinging about throughout this thread?

walshb wrote: »

And at least the weather is decent over there

I’m sure that’s great comfort to them when they’re dying from AIDS.

walshb wrote: »

I was thinking the exact same thing......absolute baloney IMO....
Ireland exploiting Africa??

Morlar wrote: »

How are Ireland exploiting african nations ? Which ones are we exploiting and can you give examples ?
Or do you mean in some indirect manner - along the lines of we are part of europe and therefore . . . . . .or we are part of 'the west' and have a collective responsibility for x.y.z

Much of the world’s coffee, cotton, cocoa, rubber, minerals and rubber are produced by African nations. Much of the time these products are sold for less than the cost of production. Taking coffee as an example (and I stress this is just an example), if you’ve ever bought a coffee in Starbucks, until very recently you were helping to impoverish Ethiopian coffee farmers.

The situation whereby African nations export crops to the West while millions on the continent starve has been blamed on Western States including the European Union. These countries protect their own agricultural sectors with high import tariffs and offer subsidies to their farmers. The result of this is that the global price of such products is continually reduced until Africans are unable to compete, except for cash crops that do not grow easily in a northern climate.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

If exploitation does happen then it is part and parcel of business worldwide where companies try to get better margins .Economies would not exist if there was no exploitation .I do not believe that a decent nation would exploit poorer nations ,some businesses or corporations maybe.

So that makes it ok?

walshb

djpbarry wrote: »

Would this be the €815 million that you have been whinging about throughout this thread?
I’m sure that’s great comfort to them when they’re dying from AIDS.

Much of the world’s coffee, cotton, cocoa, rubber, minerals and rubber are produced by African nations. Much of the time these products are sold for less than the cost of production. Taking coffee as an example (and I stress this is just an example), if you’ve ever bought a coffee in Starbucks, until very recently you were helping to impoverish Ethiopian coffee farmers.

The situation whereby African nations export crops to the West while millions on the continent starve has been blamed on Western States including the European Union. These countries protect their own agricultural sectors with high import tariffs and offer subsidies to their farmers. The result of this is that the global price of such products is continually reduced until Africans are unable to compete, except for cash crops that do not grow easily in a northern climate.
So that makes it ok?

Would you rather we didn't buy anything from them and then they would have absolute ZERO????

DadaKopf

That's just dumb. Stop acting like a eejit. You know that the point is this: fair trade. Let other countries trade into prosperity the same way now wealthy countries did.

Not 'no trade', trade justice. Simple.

edanto

walshb wrote: »

I'm not sure what to make of that. A little too incoherent for my taste.
I didn't post this thread by the way. So I didn't start the debate.....

incoherent?! I thought you were ignoring what he said just because it was close to the bone.

We donate and we donate generously but some still believe we aren't giving enough...

You're misrepresenting what people are saying. I'm saying that we (via Irish Aid) give a good amount, it's good aid and it shouldn't be reduced. Do you agree?

Anyways, using your logic that a person shouldn't be allowed to engage in any overseas development work until they have contributed in some way (at a level to be decided by you) to their local community, surely that cuts the other way, in that you aren't allowed to have an opinion on what the government does with your tax money until you are a net contributor over your life time.

So, if you try and figure out how much you have benefitted from the state and EU handouts over the years, directly (only paid a small percentage of your education costs) and indirectly (EU structural funds), then tot up the tax you have paid and then see if, by your own 'logic', you have a right to tell the rest of us what our tax money should be spent on. The same 'logic' doesn't apply to me, because you're the one that's trying to use it and I'm saying that it's flawed.
.
In the meantime, I'm bored of reading the same thing again and again in your posts - tabloid accusations of charities demanding money, when in reality they are far less agressive than companies such as banks/beer makers with their advertising. If the emotive message in some nonprofit campaigns makes you feel peculiar, why don't you ask yourself what that feeling is and start reading more about the history and systems that contribute to acute poverty. ( http://actnow.com.au/Issues/Global_poverty.aspx ) Acute poverty would be the feeling of physically painful hunger every day, not the crushing disappointment of not being able to afford those new alloys until after Christmas.

I'm not saying that you should feel guilty. You or I didn't do anything to Africa - it's not our fault. But we have an opportunity to do something to make the world fairer. It's only an accident of birth that we were born here - you could have been born in a slum in South America, and then what would you think of all the wealth we have and whether we have a responsiblity to share it or not?

The thread is going around in circles, I'd like to see what the OP has to say if they're still around. Has this long discussion had any effect on your beliefs? Confirmed any, questioned any?

EDIT: my damn post is long enough, please don't quote the whole thing if you're replying walshb.

djpbarry

edanto wrote: »

I'm not saying that you should feel guilty. You or I didn't do anything to Africa - it's not our fault.

Not directly, but we have all benefited in some small way from their exploitation. And not just in Africa either...

walshb

edanto wrote: »

incoherent?! I thought you were ignoring what he said just because it was close to the bone.



You're misrepresenting what people are saying. I'm saying that we (via Irish Aid) give a good amount, it's good aid and it shouldn't be reduced. Do you agree?

Anyways, using your logic that a person shouldn't be allowed to engage in any overseas development work until they have contributed in some way (at a level to be decided by you) to their local community, surely that cuts the other way, in that you aren't allowed to have an opinion on what the government does with your tax money until you are a net contributor over your life time.

So, if you try and figure out how much you have benefitted from the state and EU handouts over the years, directly (only paid a small percentage of your education costs) and indirectly (EU structural funds), then tot up the tax you have paid and then see if, by your own 'logic', you have a right to tell the rest of us what our tax money should be spent on. The same 'logic' doesn't apply to me, because you're the one that's trying to use it and I'm saying that it's flawed.
.
In the meantime, I'm bored of reading the same thing again and again in your posts - tabloid accusations of charities demanding money, when in reality they are far less agressive than companies such as banks/beer makers with their advertising. If the emotive message in some nonprofit campaigns makes you feel peculiar, why don't you ask yourself what that feeling is and start reading more about the history and systems that contribute to acute poverty. ( http://actnow.com.au/Issues/Global_poverty.aspx ) Acute poverty would be the feeling of physically painful hunger every day, not the crushing disappointment of not being able to afford those new alloys until after Christmas.

I'm not saying that you should feel guilty. You or I didn't do anything to Africa - it's not our fault. But we have an opportunity to do something to make the world fairer. It's only an of birth that we were born here - you could have been born in a slum in South America, and then what would you think of all the wealth we have and whether we have a responsiblity to share it or not?

The thread is going around in circles, I'd like to see what the OP has to say if they're still around. Has this long discussion had any effect on your beliefs? Confirmed any, questioned any?

EDIT: my damn post is long enough, please don't quote the whole thing if you're replying walshb.

You are right, the thread is going around in circles and you, like me, have been saying pretty much the same thing, just with differing opinions.

You make a very good point which is what I have been saying. You and I and IMO the vast vast majority of Irish thru history have done nothing to Africa or have never screwed over Africa. There are posters on the thread saying we somehow owe Africa something, as in Ireland and that we have exploited Africa and pillaged from Africa for centuries....I do not and will not be convinced that this is correct....

I also have said time and time again that we should as part of the UN and wider international community be prepared to try and help really poor countries. If we aren't part of the solution, we are part of the problem...

I also fel we have been extremely generous to Africa and the 3rd world.

What I am irritated by is that too many people are saying that we aren't doing enough and are constantly harping on about aid increase and increase etc etc. I can't turn the radio on or read a newspaper without some charity crusader 'begging' for Africa. It's absolute everywhere and IMO a lot are really only on ego trips and are jumping on this charity bandwagon..

It's basically reached total saturation point. The whole y world is gone crazy on 'curing' Africa's problems. They don't realise that a lot of the time they are only adding the the problem, due to their insistence and their arrogance and their dictation

edanto

Well, believe it or not, that level of awareness of poverty is a result of a concerted campaign by charities.

Indulge me for a minute. We all agree that slavery and apartheid were wrong. Indeed, as concepts, still are wrong. And both were only ended after prolonged campaigns of awareness and finally political action precipitated by citizen movements.

Well, I firmly believe that global poverty is as much of an injustice as both of them, and yet exists on a larger scale - a scale we can't imagine. Our imaginations are limited by experience, I can have a sense of what a 'hundred people' or a 'thousand people' are but anything over that is just 'loads!'. My point being that we can't really grasp the importance of the fact that billions of people are unimaginably poor. I just feel that it's important that I do something about it.

If you don't want to, fine. Just stop bitching about the 0.5% of the national tax take that goes to help them.

walshb

djpbarry wrote: »

Not directly, but we have all benefited in some small way from their exploitation. And not just in Africa either...

If you keep playing that violin you may just get a tear from me.

Exploitation is part of human nature and part of NATURE....

Every country on this planet is guilty as are the vast majority
of people. Irish people to this day are still being exploited and by their
very own people, just like African are exploited by their people, Britain, France, Germany, Holland etc etc etc....


Ireland does NOT exploit Africa anymore tha Africa exploits us.

Aren't we giving them 800 million a year and building schools for them, hospitals for them, sending over cows and goats and bees:rolleyes: to them.
So because I buy a starbucks as some say, I am exploiting an African??

Ok then, so when Africa accepts and takes money from my country through my tax and the tax of the Irish people, they are exploiting us, no matter what that money is used for, they too are exploiting us and our generosity.
I don't begrudge them aid, I just think we aren't aware enough of how damn generous we actually are and generous when it's not a necessity to be so...
It works both ways, but I'm not the person who ORIGINALLY came out saying we were exploiters....

djpbarry

walshb wrote: »

Ireland does NOT exploit Africa anymore tha Africa exploits us.

You're having a laugh man...

walshb wrote: »

Aren't we giving them 800 million a year

Yes...

walshb wrote: »

and building schools for them, hospitals for them, sending over cows and goats and bees:rolleyes: to them.

No. You quite clearly do not have a clue what is Irish Aid actually do.

walshb wrote: »

So because I buy a starbucks as some say, I am exploiting an African??

There are various products that are produced through the exploitation of people in the developing world.

walshb wrote: »

Ok then, so when Africa accepts and takes money from my country through my tax and the tax of the Irish people, they are exploiting us, no matter what that money is used for, they too are exploiting us and our generosity.

Nonsense. "Exploitation" is the illegal or improper use of an individual or the individual's resources for another's profit; I don't think accepting a donation falls into that category.

walshb wrote: »

I don't begrudge them aid, I just think we aren't aware enough of how damn generous we actually are and generous when it's not a necessity to be so...

Yes you do begrudge them - that is the basis for your entire argument. You seem to think that 0.7% GDP is far too much to be giving in international aid, which doesn't really make you very "generous" at all now does it?

moe_sizlak

djpbarry wrote: »

Would this be the €815 million that you have been whinging about throughout this thread?
I’m sure that’s great comfort to them when they’re dying from AIDS.

Much of the world’s coffee, cotton, cocoa, rubber, minerals and rubber are produced by African nations. Much of the time these products are sold for less than the cost of production. Taking coffee as an example (and I stress this is just an example), if you’ve ever bought a coffee in Starbucks, until very recently you were helping to impoverish Ethiopian coffee farmers.

The situation whereby African nations export crops to the West while millions on the continent starve has been blamed on Western States including the European Union. These countries protect their own agricultural sectors with high import tariffs and offer subsidies to their farmers. The result of this is that the global price of such products is continually reduced until Africans are unable to compete, except for cash crops that do not grow easily in a northern climate.
So that makes it ok?

i wrote a detailed post earlier on the issue of 3rd world farmers produce being denied access to food markets in order to protect european and american farmers whos production costs are so much higher than african farmers

this is probably a bigger cause of poverty in africa than any other factor
the CAP

djpbarry

moe_sizlak wrote: »

i wrote a detailed post earlier on the issue of 3rd world farmers produce being denied access to food markets in order to protect european and american farmers whos production costs are so much higher than african farmers

this is probably a bigger cause of poverty in africa than any other factor
the CAP

Yes, absolutely. Also the main reason why we have to pay so much for our food.

moe_sizlak

thee only thing consistent about this WALSH B is his level of obnoxiousness

as regards his beef with the level of his tax money going towards aid
i stated in my earlier post , aid is the cheap option , were we to reform the trade rules in place as regards agriculture , it would make african farmers wealthier and european and american farmers poorer
so again i say , the aid route is way cheaper for us , plus it decieves the likes of WALSH B here into thinking he and his country are being over generous

he is so mistaken in saying ireland plays no part in the exploitation of africa
ireland is a major food producer with an extremly powerfull politcally speaking farming lobby , every single delegate weve had in the EU has been overtly opposed to reforming the CAP , the CAP is possibly the biggest hindrance to the prosperity of 3rd world farmers

sovtek

Morlar wrote: »

How are Ireland exploiting african nations ? Which ones are we exploiting and can you give examples ?

Or do you mean in some indirect manner - along the lines of we are part of europe and therefore . . . . . .or we are part of 'the west' and have a collective responsibility for x.y.z Do you have any examples of Ireland directly exploiting african nations ?

South Africa was one of the top places for Irish to buy property. That is but one example. I've already posted about how many Irish have taken land from different indigenous populations. My great great grandfather was one of them(that was after some Irish guy exploited him).

walshb

djpbarry wrote: »

You're having a laugh man...

Yes...

No. You quite clearly do not have a clue what is Irish Aid actually do.

There are various products that are produced through the exploitation of people in the developing world.

Nonsense. "Exploitation" is the illegal or improper use of an individual or the individual's resources for another's profit; I don't think accepting a donation falls into that category.

Yes you do begrudge them - that is the basis for your entire argument. You seem to think that 0.7% GDP is far too much to be giving in international aid, which doesn't really make you very "generous" at all now does it?

Are BOTHAR.ORG not an Irish AID agency?????
Irish aid doesn't just start and end with direct government funding.
Every Tom, Dick and Harry is now on the charity
bandwagon, a lot out begging on the streets in Ireland
asking for peoples bank details and credit card details.
Don't tell me this is NOT occurring every single day in Ireland

Africans are benefitting greatly from Irish generosity and that's a fact.

Obnoxious?

Because I believe that we in Ireland aren't spongers and are generous and do
NOT specifically owe Africa anything and that we DIDN'T rape
and pillage any other nation and that we as much as other EU members
helped make the EU the success that it is today.
My god, I better STOP being so appreciative and generous in my
comments about my COUNTRY...It seems to be offending
so many here.....

I know I'm making sense and I haven't told any lies here.
Irish aid to Africa direct and indirect is extremely generous and
Africa IMO are in their own way exploiting this.

Sure what bloody incentive is it for Africa to try and
make their continent a success when they can simply
rely on the Irish and other western nations to keep
ploughing money into their hands...
Where's the incentive....

It reminds me of the recent Israeli bombing
of Palestine. The Israelis were destroying Palestine with million dollar
missiles and Ireland and some other nations were writing cheques to rebuild
Palestine. The Israelis were laughing because why should they STOP, when
they know the gullible Irish are paying for the rebuilding.....:rolleyes:

walshb

sovtek wrote: »

South Africa was one of the top places for Irish to buy property. That is but one example. I've already posted about how many Irish have taken land from different indigenous populations. My great great grandfather was one of them(that was after some Irish guy exploited him).

So Irish people bought LAND that South Africans were selling?
Is this exploitation?
Is this illegal?
Did the Irish force the sale or something?

How the hell is this s genuine example.

I know many Africans who have bought property here in Ireland
Did they exploit us or rip us off???

Another poster specifically defined what exploitation was in addressing a POST
of mine and I don't think your example qualifies....

I also know of many Africans living rent free on Irish land
being paid for by the Irish taxpayer.
Now maybe that qualifies as exploitation.

I somehow doubt that there were many, if any Irish persons living
on SA land for free????

djpbarry

walshb wrote: »

Are BOTHAR.ORG not an Irish AID agency?????

Do you give Bóthar money? I'm guessing not. Problem solved.

walshb wrote: »

Irish aid doesn't just start and end with direct government funding.

In your case I'm guessing it does.

walshb wrote: »

Every Tom, Dick and Harry is now on the charity
bandwagon, a lot out begging on the streets in Ireland
asking for peoples bank details and credit card details.

So what? I get junk mail all the time from banks and credit card companies; it doesn't mean I have to give them my money.

walshb wrote: »

we DIDN'T rape
and pillage any other nation

Nobody said we did.

walshb wrote: »

and that we as much as other EU members
helped make the EU the success that it is today.

Not sure about that. Define "success"?

As has already been pointed out, the EU's agricultural policies are hugely detrimental to the developing world.

walshb wrote: »

Irish aid to Africa direct and indirect is extremely generous and
Africa IMO are in their own way exploiting this.

How exactly are Africans "exploiting" aid?

walshb wrote: »

Sure what bloody incentive is it for Africa to try and
make their continent a success when they can simply
rely on the Irish and other western nations to keep
ploughing money into their hands...
Where's the incentive....

That has to be the single most ridiculous post I have ever read on boards.ie. You really don't have a clue, do you? You actually think that €815 million can keep the entire continent of Africa going?!?

walshb wrote: »

The Israelis were destroying Palestine with million dollar
missiles and Ireland and some other nations were writing cheques to rebuild
Palestine. The Israelis were laughing because why should they STOP, when
they know the gullible Irish are paying for the rebuilding.....:rolleyes:

Yeah, Palestinians are more than happy to have the crap blown out of them by the IDA as long as Ireland is prepared to pay for the rebuilding process :rolleyes:.

walshb wrote: »

I also know of many Africans living rent free on Irish land
being paid for by the Irish taxpayer.
Now maybe that qualifies as exploitation.

Getting mighty sick of this nonsense. Can you back any of this up with facts? Didn't think so, so keep your prejudices to yourself.

walshb

djpbarry wrote: »

Do you give Bóthar money? I'm guessing not. Problem solved.

In your case I'm guessing it does.

So what? I get junk mail all the time from banks and credit card companies; it doesn't mean I have to give them my money.

Nobody said we did.

Not sure about that. Define "success"?

As has already been pointed out, the EU's agricultural policies are hugely detrimental to the developing world.

How exactly are Africans "exploiting" aid?

That has to be the single most ridiculous post I have ever read on boards.ie. You really don't have a clue, do you? You actually think that €815 million can keep the entire continent of Africa going?!?

Yeah, Palestinians are more than happy to have the crap blown out of them by the IDA as long as Ireland is prepared to pay for the rebuilding process :rolleyes:.

Getting mighty sick of this nonsense. Can you back any of this up with facts? Didn't think so, so keep your prejudices to yourself.

You have written and posted a lot, but said nothing!!!
Really you aren't saying anything.
You are just basically copying my
points and asking silly questions??
Surely you can do better than that....

And stating facts is nothing got
to do with prejudice?

It is known that plenty of Africans as well as other nationalities, Including Irish, do live
rent free here in Ireland from rent that the taxpayer
subsidises. Not all of them I might add....

You seem to think it's non existent.
Talk about being naive!!!!!

Save yourself on the copying and pasting and simply get to your point.
You have not refuted any of mine, so you should try making
some of your own....

djpbarry

walshb wrote: »

You are just basically copying my
points and asking silly questions??

More like you are unable to answer the questions I have posed :rolleyes:.

walshb wrote: »

It is known that plenty of Africand as well as others do live
rent free here in Ireland and rent that the taxpayer
subsidises.

If it is so well known then you should have no trouble finding some sources to back up your claims.

walshb wrote: »

You have not refuted any of mine, so you should try making
some of your own....

I have refuted just about every claim you have made, but you are extremely selective in what you respond to. In fact, you have ignored just about every question I have posed.

sovtek

walshb wrote: »

It is known that plenty of Africans as well as other nationalities, Including Irish do live
rent free here in Ireland from rent that the taxpayer
subsidises. Not all of them I might add....

Does "rent free" mean "living" in a detention centre whilst awaiting a ruling on their refugee status?

walshb

djpbarry wrote: »

More like you are unable to answer the questions I have posed :rolleyes:.

If it is so well known then you should have no trouble finding some sources to back up your claims.

OK, then why don't you simply come out and say that it is non existent?
Sources?
My neighbors are sources and they have told me this and it is widely
accepted as being true. It has been reported many times in the media.
Note I didn't say only African people. Plenty of other nationalities are also
living here rent free as are Irish....

Do you really believe that this does NOT exist??

That's what I find strange....

djpbarry

sovtek wrote: »

Does "rent free" mean "living" in a detention centre whilst awaiting a ruling on their refugee status?

My thoughts exactly .

walshb wrote: »

Sources?
My neighbors are sources and they have told me this and it is widely
accepted as being true. It has been reported many times in the media.

If it has been reported many times in the media then you should have no trouble finding a media report on the internet to quote as a source.

sovtek

walshb wrote: »

OK, then why don't you simply come out and say that it is non existent?
Sources?
My neighbors are sources and they have told me this and it is widely
accepted as being true. It has been reported many times in the media.
Note I didn't say only African people. Plenty of other nationalities are also
living here rent free as are Irish....

Do you really believe that this does NOT exist??

That's what I find strange....

Please tell me how I can live rent free as it's currently taking about a 1/3 of my salary. I'd love to save that much money.
Tell me how I can avoid paying Brian Lenihan €100 every year that he wants for his ****ing GNIB card or my company can avoid paying €1500 a year for my work permit whilst I'm waiting over a year for residency which can be refused for any reason even if it's against EU law(that's after living here over the required 5 years legally and paying taxes)?
Tell me how I can avoid paying the same amount of tax that Irish people pay even though I have no right to vote or to residency and citizenship?

moe_sizlak

this debate is a bit like a rat on one of those wheels
the guy has a set of firmly entrenched views and is determined to stick with them , ive mentioned the issue of the COMMON AGRICULTURAL POLICY several times and all he says in reply is the irish never done anything that hurt africa so ill say it once more and thats it
ireland on behalf of its farmer lobby has in the strongest terms opposed reform of the CAP for the simple reason that it would allow 3rd world farmers access to the same markets that irish , european and american farmers have access to, as most people know , globalisation has mostly benefited the west , while india and china have benefited from manufacturing , africa has not benefited from globalisation for its farmers due to the CAP

walshb

moe_sizlak wrote: »

this debate is a bit like a rat on one of those wheels
the guy has a set of firmly entrenched views and is determined to stick with them , ive mentioned the issue of the COMMON AGRICULTURAL POLICY several times and all he says in reply is the irish never done anything that hurt africa so ill say it once more and thats it
ireland on behalf of its farmer lobby has in the strongest terms opposed reform of the CAP for the simple reason that it would allow 3rd world farmers access to the same markets that irish , european and american farmers have access to, as most people know , globalisation has mostly benefited the west , while india and china have benefited from manufacturing , africa has not benefited from globalisation for its farmers due to the CAP

So Irish farmers are fighting for themselves and wanting the best they can possibly get for themselves. Sounds like HUMAN nature to me. In order for anyone to get rich, someone has to get poor....Don't go blaming the Irish for Africa's problems. It's laughable.
Africa has had an existence long before Ireland ever came onto the map.....

Sovtek, I too don't live rent free. I didn't say everyone mate.
I said a proportion.
Is anyone really suggesting to me that NOBODY in Ireland
is living on benefits and that nobody in Ireland is here purely
for the benefits and that there is nobody here on benefits who
has never worked a day in their lives, at least not a day on Irish soil...
Absolute nonsense. There are a lot here.....

This all stemmed from the ridiculous suggestion that we have exploited SA because
we bought land there? I bet there are no Irish persons living in SA who are having
their rent paid for them by the South African authorities!!!

There are Africans living in Ireland who are on benefits and who have never contributed a cent
the the Irish economy. Not all, but some and I don't need to get social
welfare records to prove this.....

So who's exploiting who??

jmayo

moe_sizlak wrote: »

...
i stated in my earlier post , aid is the cheap option , were we to reform the trade rules in place as regards agriculture , it would make african farmers wealthier and european and american farmers poorer

he is so mistaken in saying ireland plays no part in the exploitation of africa
ireland is a major food producer with an extremly powerfull politcally speaking farming lobby , every single delegate weve had in the EU has been overtly opposed to reforming the CAP , the CAP is possibly the biggest hindrance to the prosperity of 3rd world farmers

Have to respond to this even though want to stay away from this meandering thread.
God just spotted I am agreeing with you know who :

---

)))

So your idea is to screw Irish farmers and then sure all the poor African subsistence farmers will get richer.
I don't think so ?
The ones that will get rich are the rich landowners, not the guy with just enough land to feed his family.
Who will then invest in large ranches and farms within these countries that have the trade opened up.
Perhaps it will be George Soros, as he did by buying thousands of acres in Argentina.
A large percentage of Irish farms are currently uneconomical without outside additional income and will be even worse when subsidies eventually go. A lot of people of course argue that if they are uneconomical then fine, farmers should sell up and give up.
But that has far reaching consequences for this country.
Should everyone move to Dublin, what will happen to our agricultural industry sector ?

What happens when people finally twig that there vegatebles coming from outside EU may be treated with DDT or the pesticides that are banned in EU, when they discover that by pushing for cheap Brazillian beef they have cut down another million acres of rain forest so some George Soros can create another ranch.

I don't think the solution to African poverty is to drive what few people work on family farms in this country off the land for good.

walshb

Guys/Gals, I don't think agreeing or disagreeing should be the issue. So a lot do not
give credence to my views. We all have our views on this issue and who know's who really is right. All we do know is currently the 3rd world poverty issue is far from fixed and the throwing of money and more money and more money does NOT seem to be working.
I think at present the funding should be curbed or kept as it is. No further increases and we should without pressure be able to reevaluate our 2012 commitment without the harassing and lecturing and criticism....You will always get some group slagging the government for the curbing or the tightening.
Most are just using the issue as a political football and don't really care what is being done. It's a chance to score silly
points...

moe_sizlak

jmayo wrote: »

Have to respond to this even though want to stay away from this meandering thread.
God just spotted I am agreeing with you know who :

---

)))

So your idea is to screw Irish farmers and then sure all the poor African subsistence farmers will get richer.
I don't think so ?
The ones that will get rich are the rich landowners, not the guy with just enough land to feed his family.
Who will then invest in large ranches and farms within these countries that have the trade opened up.
Perhaps it will be George Soros, as he did by buying thousands of acres in Argentina.
A large percentage of Irish farms are currently uneconomical without outside additional income and will be even worse when subsidies eventually go. A lot of people of course argue that if they are uneconomical then fine, farmers should sell up and give up.
But that has far reaching consequences for this country.
Should everyone move to Dublin, what will happen to our agricultural industry sector ?

What happens when people finally twig that there vegatebles coming from outside EU may be treated with DDT or the pesticides that are banned in EU, when they discover that by pushing for cheap Brazillian beef they have cut down another million acres of rain forest so some George Soros can create another ranch.

I don't think the solution to African poverty is to drive what few people work on family farms in this country off the land for good.

subsidies were removed from the equation in newzealand and australia in 1984 , since then they have had to operate on world market price , some farmers went to the wall but the ones that remained became more efficent and today are held up as the yardstickfor profitable low cost farming , i know what im talking about , trust me , i think its resonable for african farmers to be allowed to operate on the same level playing field as european and american farmers , i do not want to see irish farmers suffer and as regards subsidies being removed here , that will never happen here as there are too many public servants who work at the dept of ag who rely on the cheque in the post and its implementation for a job , albe it for the most part a meaningless one but then again meaningless jobs in the public service are 10 a penny

moe_sizlak

walshb wrote: »

Guys/Gals, I don't think agreeing or disagreeing should be the issue. So a lot do not
give credence to my views. We all have our views on this issue and who know's who really is right. All we do know is currently the 3rd world poverty issue is far from fixed and the throwing of money and more money and more money does NOT seem to be working.
I think at present the funding should be curbed or kept as it is. No further increases and we should without pressure be able to reevaluate our 2012 commitment without the harassing and lecturing and criticism....You will always get some group slagging the government for the curbing or the tightening.
Most are just using the issue as a political football and don't really care what is being done. It's a chance to score silly
points...

i think i speak for all when i say lets leave it at that and let the baby have his bottle