Unions v real world

jahalpin

I think it's about time that the unions in this country started living in the real world and realised that concessions must be made or jobs will go

For example, the latest Dublin Bus strike, workers are on strike because they don't want to change buses in the centre of town but instead want to drive a bus out of revenue earning service to the depot so they can use the facilities there. Dublin Bus has always has a large canteen behind Clearys where the drivers that change in town go to get their subsidised meals etc.. I don't see why the drivers in Harristown think that they should be able to decide where they go to get their subsidised food and would rather inconvenience paying customers and waste fuel driving to a depot on the outskirts of the city.

I have recently been in the position of having to move my place of work from the centre of town to the outskirts and as I work for a private (non-state) company I saw no problem in moving as it is in the benefit of the company and they after all pay my salary. The workers in Dublin Bus have only been asked to change buses in town and if necessary get a revenue service bus back to the depot on company time!!

The unions were originally setup to prevent people from being exploited by their employers, by exploited it means things like being locked out of work and not getting paid for work done, these days the unions think that exploitation means things like workers having to clean up after themselves in canteens ,having management staff help out on tills etc. when a shop gets busy and workers not having free use of company equipment when it suits them.

The union’s excessive demands are leading to a reduction in Irelands competitiveness in a global marketplace and actually lead to higher redundancies etc

While the unions expect fair treatment for their members they do not extend the same fair treatment to their own employees

mikemac

jahalpin wrote: »

While the unions expect fair treatment for their members they do not extend the same fair treatment to their own employees

Are union officals badly treated?

Crash

Interestingly enough, I had decided to come onto politics today to start a topic fairly similiar to this point.

So taking the most recent strike action which involved SIPTU, the drivers stated that having to travel from city centre to home added travel time to their working day. I would enquire as to just how many of us have had to factor travel time into our working day. secondly, how many of us have had to factor travel time via dublin bus into our working day.

within the private sector, you have certain things you accept. 1) is that you may have to work in a place far away. 2) that place may change, and you have options there upon.

I have serious issues with the idea that you are inherently entitled to a job - granted you are entitled to fair treatment once within such a position, but to be honest the travel time that would have been incurred by most of these drivers was not out of the ordinary for the average person.

On top of that, I always find it highly entertaining how SIPTU (I am using SIPTU as an example because they tend to be the ones behind the most ridiculuous strike actions) has a habit of taking action which effects a ridiculuously large majority of its members.

To be honest, having been involved with certain unions and dealt with representative members of various unions, unions as a whole seem to take the idea of the fact that they are there to protect members rights above and beyond their remit, to the detriment of the nation as a whole. take for instance the rail strike on the dublin to cork line, or the bus strike. These are despicable actions.

sovtek

jahalpin wrote: »

The union’s excessive demands are leading to a reduction in Irelands competitiveness in a global marketplace and actually lead to higher redundancies etc

Ireland is a country not a company. The main problem with Ireland's "competitiveness" is it's low living standards, run amok inflation and it's serious lack of proper city planning and infrastructure.
If you think unions are a thing of the past just try and recall the myriad examples of exploitation by non union private endeavors...Irish Ferries etc etc

Fratton Fred

sovtek wrote: »

Ireland is a country not a company. The main problem with Ireland's "competitiveness" is it's low living standards, run amok inflation and it's serious lack of proper city planning and infrastructure.
If you think unions are a thing of the past just try and recall the myriad examples of exploitation by non union private endeavors...Irish Ferries etc etc

IT's a case of two wrongs not making a right though.

Unions and their respective management both have responsibility to maintain the countries competitiveness, the most fundemental measure of which is productivity.

Several actions by Unions lately appear to be more about protecting an employees cushy lifestyle than about preventing them beng exploited by ruthless management.

brianthebard

I was under the impression that the issue was that the drivers began and ended their shifts in the middle of the town, and never went to the main depot at the start or end of the day. Can someone please clarify once and for all what exactly the strike is about, because I've heard a lot of different things over the last few days and this thread is no different.

sovtek

sovtek wrote: »

try and recall the myriad examples of exploitation by non union private endeavors...Irish Ferries etc etc

I'd be interested in the etc bit.

I'll bet this isn't one of them.

Fratton Fred

Tristrame wrote: »

I'd be interested in the etc bit.

I'll bet this isn't one of them.

or this http://www.limerickblogger.org/blog/?p=3830

jmayo

sovtek wrote: »

Ireland is a country not a company. The main problem with Ireland's "competitiveness" is it's low living standards, run amok inflation and it's serious lack of proper city planning and infrastructure.
If you think unions are a thing of the past just try and recall the myriad examples of exploitation by non union private endeavors...Irish Ferries etc etc

Low living standards, run amok inflation ?? You are having me on :rolleyes:
What about the myriad of cases where unions drove businesses under or out of this country because of their intransigence ?
The last great stronghold of unions is the public sector where they have affectively strangled efficiency, productivity and help drive operating costs higher.
An ESB station been manned even though not generating electricity was a prime example of this scenario. Jobs for the boys and screw everyone else :rolleyes:

Ah the poor train drivers and bus drivers are being exploited, but not as shamelessly as their customers who are screwed in some cases based on the most flippant and spurious of reasons.

Zombrex

jahalpin wrote: »

For example, the latest Dublin Bus strike, workers are on strike because they don't want to change buses in the centre of town but instead want to drive a bus out of revenue earning service to the depot so they can use the facilities there.

That isn't the main reason they were striking.

They were striking because Dublin Bus wanted to change routes so that some of the routes that started and ending in Harristown were changes to start or end in the city center.

The complaint from the staff was that many had already organized their lives around starting and ending in Harristown.

This change would increase time to get to and from the start and end of their routes, increasing working hours and travel time.

DadaKopf

crash_000 wrote:

within the private sector, you have certain things you accept. 1) is that you may have to work in a place far away. 2) that place may change, and you have options there upon.

It's amazing what people will lie down and accept.

You think it's OK that so many Irish people have to travel hours on congested roads and inadequate, overcrowded public transport to earn a living? Spending so long commuting and working late that you never see your children?

Just think about it for a second. Is the NBRU really crazy to demand what they did?

Stop blaming the unions. Start blaming the government. It's the government that's responsible for the mess this country is in. And it's the people - all workers - who should demand better.

So, you have a choice. Reject the unions and embrace a life of diminished rights, lower income, insecurity, poor health and lower quality of life. Or support what they stand for, and take action yourself to demand more rights, more income, better security, better health and a higher quality of life.

invincibleirish

Tristrame wrote: »

I'd be interested in the etc bit.

I'll bet this isn't one of them.

no disrespect but a narky councillor upset that he didnt get a labour nomination to run for the dail(which is mentioned in the article) giving out about pat rabbitte when he worked as a union negotiator 22 years ago is hardly a basis on which to complain about unions?

invincibleirish

Fratton Fred wrote: »

or this http://www.limerickblogger.org/blog/?p=3830

as for this,the workers
rejected the plan, i dont know the full story behind the article but posting the link doesnt add anything to the debate about unions v real world,there is no mention of unions in the article

wotisthere

Firstly , all you non union members out there , stop moaning .As an ex dublin bus driver with 20 years service behind me it is understanable why those drivers went out on strike. Harristown was built , 1. to be a central depot for the north/east/west services . 2.As parking is a premium in the city alll of the routes of the above garage started , breaked and finished in the depot . This was a company decision not the unions .The reason they want to change it is because the running time a bus is given to get from the depot to the terminus was not enough due to TRAFFIC PROBLEMS! So they have decided to change the whole concept of the garage .

Raskolnikov

Am I the only one who thinks that Dublin Bus should just no longer recognise the unions and simply fire workers who refuse to go back to work?

If I don't like the working practices of my private-sector, non-unionized employer, I can go do one; just like the Dublin Bus drivers should.

juuge

What is really ironic about the unions is that by their reckless strike action they affect and disrupt their own kind. Do you think middle class professionals give a toss about whether busses are running or not?

jahalpin

Wicknight wrote: »

That isn't the main reason they were striking.

They were striking because Dublin Bus wanted to change routes so that some of the routes that started and ending in Harristown were changes to start or end in the city center.

The complaint from the staff was that many had already organized their lives around starting and ending in Harristown.

This change would increase time to get to and from the start and end of their routes, increasing working hours and travel time.

I organised my life around working in the City Centre but was prepared to move as it was in the best interests of the company.

The drivers are getting 45 minutes paid travel time to get between town and the depot at the start and end of their shifts, which should be more than enough time.

What the unions seem to want is the country to go back into the deep despression of the 80's with high unemployment etc..

It is time that the unions were put in their place, they are not the employers and they should therefore not be in a position to dictate terms to the people that pay their members wages, pensions etc.. Unions should only become involved when workers rights are being truely breached ie if employers refuse to pay their staff etc.

Jackie laughlin

Union members are the same as anyone else. To characterise them as lunatics who want a recession shows a fundamental inability to understand the real world of work.

Moreover, unions do not order members; it is the other way round.

The current silliness is workers falling for the contrived controversy over "featherbedded" state employees versus hard workers in private companies. The current relaunch of this argument coincides with the increases for senior civil servants. The whole thing masks the essential injustice of pay differentials between mad salaries and low salaries.

Incidentally, I've worked in both public and private companies and - if there is any difference - it is that pay, hours and conditions are worse in public employment.

Another incidentally, I don't know how bus workers endure splits of a couple of hours in their shifts, whether they have to while the time away in town or in county Dublin.

Fratton Fred

wotisthere wrote: »

Firstly , all you non union members out there , stop moaning .As an ex dublin bus driver with 20 years service behind me it is understanable why those drivers went out on strike. Harristown was built , 1. to be a central depot for the north/east/west services . 2.As parking is a premium in the city alll of the routes of the above garage started , breaked and finished in the depot . This was a company decision not the unions .The reason they want to change it is because the running time a bus is given to get from the depot to the terminus was not enough due to TRAFFIC PROBLEMS! So they have decided to change the whole concept of the garage .

So if they take on new drivers who are willing to work these routes and hours it is acceptable then?

sovtek

juuge wrote: »

What is really ironic about the unions is that by their reckless strike action they affect and disrupt their own kind. Do you think middle class professionals give a toss about whether busses are running or not?

Being that it is a complete waste of money to own a car in Dublin...this one does.

DadaKopf

I organised my life around working in the City Centre but was prepared to move as it was in the best interests of the company.

The drivers are getting 45 minutes paid travel time to get between town and the depot at the start and end of their shifts, which should be more than enough time.

I'm sorry you had to disrupt your life by moving, though, as you say, it was your 'choice'. Or maybe it was your employer's choice. An alternative way of looking at things is this: if you and other employees had a stronger voice, you could have demanded paid travel time, too. What's so crazy about expecting companies to stop trating people like machines and start treating people with dignity?

jmayo

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

Union members are the same as anyone else. To characterise them as lunatics who want a recession shows a fundamental inability to understand the real world of work.

Incidentally, I've worked in both public and private companies and - if there is any difference - it is that pay, hours and conditions are worse in public employment.

Another incidentally, I don't know how bus workers endure splits of a couple of hours in their shifts, whether they have to while the time away in town or in county Dublin.

I will give you a split in shift of 3/4 hours is a bit of a nonsense but public sector workers having worse conditions, pay and hours than private sector
workers :rolleyes: Give us a break.
What are your pensions like in the public sector may I ask ?
How secure are your jobs compared to people working in private company that doesn't have luxury of government giving them handouts becuase they are not making enough money to break even never mnd make a profit.
I am talking about public sector where the companies could break even and not civil service government department etc which is not really money making entity.

Does recession hit people in public sector in the same way as people employed in private sector?
No it doesn't because your employer does not shut down or make you redundant and leave you looking for a new job.

Was it not the train drivers or dart drivers that demanded more money just to be retrained to drive new engine ? Try that in IT or technology company and you will be on your ar** out the door :rolleyes:
The CIE (or whatever the companies are rebadged these days) have some of the most militant unions.
I have had the pleasure of sitting in a bus in Eyre Square, Galway and having to listen to the drivers debate whether they would have a strike over tea breaks. BTW the bus was running 20 minutes late already.

DadaKopf wrote: »

I'm sorry you had to disrupt your life by moving, though, as you say, it was your 'choice'. Or maybe it was your employer's choice. An alternative way of looking at things is this: if you and other employees had a stronger voice, you could have demanded paid travel time, too. What's so crazy about expecting companies to stop trating people like machines and start treating people with dignity?

Yes demand paid travel time, extra holidays, a gym etc and watch your employer close it's Irish operation and move to Poland or China.
Treating people with dignity ?
They are not whipping you, tying you to the workbench or making you work 16 hours in the dark these days you know.
And yes we do owe unions for a lot of those advances but unions need to remember who does pay the wages and if the company is not making money everyone suffers.

leninbenjamin

jmayo wrote: »

I will give you a split in shift of 3/4 hours is a bit of a nonsense

it's not like it's confined to the public sector though. plenty of private employees agree to work to the same conditions...

you could always just quit the job and let someone who would be willing to work under those conditions do so... no one's forcing you to do that job.

DadaKopf

How secure are your jobs compared to people working in private company that doesn't have luxury of government giving them handouts becuase they are not making enough money to break even never mnd make a profit.

Job insecurity is a huge problem. And increasingly so in the public sector, too. If only people would get together and do something about it...

Did you know: two-thirds of union members are from the private sector?

jmayo

leninbenjamin wrote: »

it's not like it's confined to the public sector though. plenty of private employees agree to work to the same conditions...

you could always just quit the job and let someone who would be willing to work under those conditions do so... no one's forcing you to do that job.

I don't work in public sector but have had the dubious pleasure of being contracted into major City Council HQ for a wee while. It was the most depressing place I have ever worked. There was an apathy and people just seemed to be shuffling about, clock watching and apparently waiting for either breaktime, home time or their retirement. It seemed to be a culture of waiting for something or other, a bit like the service they offered the customers :rolleyes:

DadaKopf wrote: »

Job insecurity is a huge problem. And increasingly so in the public sector, too. If only people would get together and do something about it...

Did you know: two-thirds of union members are from the private sector?

So is it now easier to fire a teacher for being totally inept?
Is it easier to fire a public servant for wasting millions of taxpayers money ?
I think not ;-)
Job security and pensions in public sector are still way ahead of anything in private sector and now their pay is on a par if not ahead of the private sector workers.

No didn't know 2/3 of union member in private sector, but maybe the private sector employees have more cop on and realise that the employer is not there to just give them employment but actaully to deliver to the customers and make money.

DadaKopf

You sound jealous.

jmayo

DadaKopf wrote: »

You sound jealous.

No not jealous of just sitting about and waiting.
BTW do you work in public sector ?
Actually some large private organisations can tend to be similar to an extent.
It is the bureaucracy I guess that can do it.

But I do firmly believe that public sector workers are cushioned from outside downturns and fiscal pressures way more so than their private counterparts.
Aer Lingus employees have had a rude awakening to this over the last few years and it is hurting them. Welcome to the real world I say.

DadaKopf

Are you an employer?

jmayo

DadaKopf wrote: »

Are you an employer?

According to play ground rules I asked you first

DadaKopf

Well, whatever. The answer's no.

Your turn.

jmayo

DadaKopf wrote: »

Well, whatever. The answer's no.

Your turn.

The answer's no so now that we have that out of the way can we move on to thrashing the unionsists