Civic Type R savaged on Top Gear

Vegeta

cpoh1 wrote: »

Im sorry I dont want to go offtopic either but youre not making any sense. How the hell is the golf a better hot hatch if its slower and doesnt handle as well despite being lighter than the civic???

Is it better looking? Have more space and better interior? All these things are completely up to the individual involved and his preferences. What you cant argue with however are the performance figures.

Have to agree with this

you are not making any sense at all here

Vegeta

MarkN wrote: »

I don't see how I'm not making sense TBH, that's a pretty weak line for when you have nothing else to say.

Nobody said it handles better, if anything the understeer was dreadful. The less than a second slower time could easily be shaved by a different driver.

What are you talking about, the same driver drove both cars. The same amount of skill was used to drive both cars and the CTR came out on top. How you can argue with that is insane.

On a side note a second (or close to it) a lap is a big difference

Mitch Connor

Num 1. There may be more then 1 stig - there have been rumours.

Num 2. He isn't ACTUALLY a robot, so he will have good and bad days.

Num 3. Conditions would not have been the same for both cars.

Num 4. The Honda could simply suit Stig's style (or if more then one, the style of the Stig driving)

It is quite possible that the Civic cimply is faster around the track, but there are also a number of variables involved. No two laps will ever be the same and all that guff.

JHMEG

Look, some cars will always be better than other cars no matter what. The Golf GTI is better because of exactly that: it's a Golf GTI. It's just not possible for the CTR to be better.

Blitzkrieger

omg it's a troll........

Vegeta

Tauren wrote: »

Num 1. There may be more then 1 stig - there have been rumours.

Num 2. He isn't ACTUALLY a robot, so he will have good and bad days.

Num 3. Conditions would not have been the same for both cars.

Num 4. The Honda could simply suit Stig's style (or if more then one, the style of the Stig driving)

It is quite possible that the Civic cimply is faster around the track, but there are also a number of variables involved. No two laps will ever be the same and all that guff.

While what you say is true, a second is still a huge difference for one lap even considering all of the above

Mitch Connor

Vegeta wrote: »

While what you say is true, a second is still a huge difference for one lap even considering all of the above

Yes.

MarkN

So the best thing you lads can come up with is the sub 1 second quicker lap time.. a situation that 99% of CTR owners would never even experience... It's not exactly going to make you rush out and buy one is it. If the Focus ST can jump from 170bhp to 225 and the GTI can jump from 150 to 197bhp, then why didn't they give the Civic more power?? To me that is what probably WOULD make it better to own than the GTI.

JHMEG

Tauren wrote: »

Num 3. Conditions would not have been the same for both cars.

They might actually have been better for the Golf.

Tauren wrote: »

Num 4. The Honda could simply suit Stig's style (or if more then one, the style of the Stig driving)

Equally the Golf could have suited Stig's driving style better.

Tauren wrote: »

It is quite possible that the Civic cimply is faster around the track,

Also possible that it is more than 1 second faster.

All we know for sure is the CTR is quicker than the Golf.

C_Breeze

"All we know for sure is the CTR is quicker than the Golf."


...a 400euro ECU remap would sort that out for the Golf.




MarkN Good point made about the horspower increases over previous models, why could honda not have done the same?

JHMEG

I dunno. Maybe they're independent thinkers? Maybe they thought no point as the price of petrol will soon go thru the roof and no-one will buy and of them? Maybe they spent all the money on the hydrogen powered FCX? Or the hybrid? Or on the flip side maybe the new NSX will be so cheap that we could all afford one?

Vegeta

C_Breeze wrote: »

...a 400euro ECU remap would sort that out for the Golf.

Sure ya might as well the golf is over priced as it is, what's another 400 euro

MarkN

It's all relative.. I've lost barely E3,000 on the price of a GTI during a year of ownership of one.

I'll take the GTI with retro cool seats, 18s, the exhaust note, the incredible DSG box, the looks and the nice big turbo slapped onto it and cry into my beer everytime I think about how the new CTR is less than a second quicker around the track on TG thanks.

Wossack

rabbitinlights wrote: »

€45,000

thats lovely looking, but why white?



(I kinda know the answer already )

whippet

MarkN wrote: »

It's all relative.. I've lost barely E3,000 on the price of a GTI during a year of ownership of one.

I'll take the GTI with retro cool seats, 18s, the exhaust note, the incredible DSG box, the looks and the nice big turbo slapped onto it and cry into my beer everytime I think about how the new CTR is less than a second quicker around the track on TG thanks.

you took the words out of my mouth !!

jayok

JHMEG wrote: »

I dunno. Maybe they're independent thinkers? Maybe they thought no point as the price of petrol will soon go thru the roof and no-one will buy and of them? Maybe they spent all the money on the hydrogen powered FCX? Or the hybrid? Or on the flip side maybe the new NSX will be so cheap that we could all afford one?

Or maybe Honda have lost their very racing soul and are more that happy to put our generic sh1te for generic masses. The way I see it Honda's racing cars have gone downhill since the early 90's. Here's why:

1. Dropped the CRX
2. Dropped the Accord Type-R
3. Dropped a Civic VTi (the CTR doesn't count)
4. Dropped the NSX
5. Dropped Civic ESi
6. Dropped the Prelude (2.2 VTi yum)

All of the above have been dropped with no ready replacement!!

If you look at the Euro cars today that Honda have that could be consideed sporty you have two, the Civic CTR (supposedly sh1te) and the S2000. So in reality you've the S2000.

Consider the options in the early 1990's

1.CRX VTi
2. Civic VTi
3. Prelude VTi
4. NSX

All somewhat affordable and that doesn't even include the ESi SOHC models of the CRX or Civic.

The newer models are fatter, slower, and less involving to drive. Sure they are reliable, but so is a JCB tractor.

And don't even start with the HSC or FCX or any of that, as a product they are not realistically here yet.

To be fair to VW and the Golf GTI (and I am not a fan of VW by any stretch) at least they delivered a quick more responsive model that the outgoing one (not that it was upto much either). They've incorporate developments such a DSG and the like into it. HIDs are an option as is leather.

You can't even get HIDs in the Type R for that you'll need to buy a 5-door 1.8 Sport!

The new Type-R is a cheaply built, short term thrill machine. After a while it will become mundane. When the same happens to the GTI at least you have a decent car to use.

'Nuff said.

C_Breeze

jayok wrote: »

Or maybe Honda have lost their very racing soul and are more that happy to put our generic sh1te for generic masses. The way I see it Honda's racing cars have gone downhill since the early 90's. Here's why:

1. Dropped the CRX
2. Dropped the Accord Type-R
3. Dropped a Civic VTi (the CTR doesn't count)
4. Dropped the NSX
5. Dropped Civic ESi
6. Dropped the Prelude (2.2 VTi yum)

All of the above have been dropped with no ready replacement!!

If you look at the Euro cars today that Honda have that could be consideed sporty you have two, the Civic CTR (supposedly sh1te) and the S2000. So in reality you've the S2000.

Consider the options in the early 1990's

1.CRX VTi
2. Civic VTi
3. Prelude VTi
4. NSX

All somewhat affordable and that doesn't even include the ESi SOHC models of the CRX or Civic.

The newer models are fatter, slower, and less involving to drive. Sure they are reliable, but so is a JCB tractor.

And don't even start with the HSC or FCX or any of that, as a product they are not realistically here yet.

To be fair to VW and the Golf GTI (and I am not a fan of VW by any stretch) at least they delivered a quick more responsive model that the outgoing one (not that it was upto much either). They've incorporate developments such a DSG and the like into it. HIDs are an option as is leather.

You can't even get HIDs in the Type R for that you'll need to buy a 5-door 1.8 Sport!

The new Type-R is a cheaply built, short term thrill machine. After a while it will become mundane. When the same happens to the GTI at least you have a decent car to use.

'Nuff said.

Brilliant. Just Brilliant.

Somebody that knows something about honda with a un-biased opinion that isn't a Honda worshipping fanboy.

well said jayok

JHMEG

@jayok:
1. Rumoured to be on the return, not likely tho.
2. Accord Euro-R (there's an '05 near where I live)
3. Civic Type-S?
4. 2008
5. Current 1.8 is near enough
6. Accord Coupe is pretty much same segment (and has a V6).
7. Integra Type-R
8. Integra Type-R
9. Integra Type-R

S2000 is ceasing production in 2008. Don't think there's a replacement.

TBH I think they're shifting their focus and resources onto alternative fuels etc.

Aren't all new models bigger and fatter, and are HIDs or leather required to be a good car?!

Finally, I can't believe C_Breeze is still sore about that cr@ppy rover/civic that he couldn't sell...

Vegeta

lads all the debating in the world wont change that a supposedly worse car beat the GTI around the track on TG.

I have not once said that I think the CTR is a better car than the GTI but purely from a performance point of view the CTR came out ahead. How anyone can argue that is beyond me really but all the same.

I was calling a spade a spade, someone was spouting sh1te and I called them on it.

"Sure the CTR beat my beloved golf but it was windy the day the golf went out and the Stig ate an extra big brekky that day and everyone knows the golf is better anyway." :rolleyes:

That's bollox, if Honda have gone down hill a bit (and I think they have, in terms of performance) what does that say about the golf if the new slower CTR still beat it.

I would buy niether anyway, 40k for a jumped up hatch back, fcuk off thank you very much.

C_Breeze

JHMEG why cant you understand that it's not because im sore and youre just a biased fanboy. (drove it for 6000miles, sold it for 1200euro profit - why would i be sore)

It's not the only Honda i've ever driven you know - and i actually though it was quite a good car - just not the best because it was a honda!

I never said hondas are sh!te which you seem to assume - just not the best thing since sliced bread as you make them out to be!

Im not on an "anti-Honda bent" as you said - (i was quite clearly sticking up for the CTR at the beginning) - Honda brainwashed fanboys who wont give anything else a chance is what i cant stand

Ive driven Integras 1.8SIR . Civic Vti's Lsi's and Sir's and also Accrods. - All great cars , realible etc etc BUT WAY overrated. Especially the Vti / sir 1.6's which are sooo great because the skanger world says so.( They are absolutelly hopless on the motorway against my current V6 - first hand experience against a friends 1.6 - and dont doubt it because from 60 mph up to XXX mph he was falling back) - 0 -60 yeah great he was pulling away by a tiny bit but how many times do you really get to do that.

Point is , i dont hate honda, yes they are great cars - no they are not the best cars out there and WOW can you believe it they are not to everyones taste! - and not everybody has to agree with you .




Oh and one more thing , if you have such a grudge against the 5 Door 1.8 LTD edition VTi-S DOHC VTEC Civic i used to own- why are you not defending hondas decision to use the "Rover" body shape - Surely all decision that the Oh So Great almighty H make are good, no? ... It is a Honda at the end of the day - Go on admit it , you loved it!


...afterall you were curiosuly posting on my adverts criticising and inquiring about it saying that you were interested in it and you wanted to get one yourself from the UK - Or was I right that you were just trying to thread spoil and was my "having a go at you" warranted in the end??

...im sure anybody would take it over your old rust bucket 91 xsi anyway

jayok

JHMEG wrote: »

@jayok:
1. Rumoured to be on the return, not likely tho.
2. Accord Euro-R (there's an '05 near where I live)
3. Civic Type-S?
4. 2008
5. Current 1.8 is near enough
6. Accord Coupe is pretty much same segment (and has a V6).
7. Integra Type-R
8. Integra Type-R
9. Integra Type-R

Not trying to turn this into a peeing contest but of the cars you mentioned only the Civic Type-S and 1.8 is in the Euro market. The Accord ER, ITR, Accord Coupe, are all in other markets. Drive a 3dr Type-S - not a bad car, but nothing special either. Err the 1.8 Civic doesn't match upto the VTi - at all. Also the 2008 delivery of the HSC probably won't make Europe either.

When I buy a car I want it to be homogenised for the Euro market. I want its ignition timing for 95 octane, its radio to work on the odd step frequencies, it to meet euro emmissions, to have a suspension setup that will actualy take corners (Accord Coupe) and I don't want a square rear reg-plate.

No HIDs, leather, etc are not necessary for a "good" car but they are a step in the right direction of a cars development. At least recognise that they are desireable and make them optional.

And they are dropping the S2000... :mad: FFS

"If Honda doesn't race then there's no Honda" - just wait for it.

JHMEG

You can't really come out with sweeping statements saying they don't do this or that. Several of those cars are JDM, and are quite easy to get your hands on if you really wanted to, and run fine on 95. There is no problem with support for them here either. The 1.8 -- look at your post, #5.

@C_Breeze, yeah, whatever, took 3 ads and how many months to shift it... zzzz....

jayok

In my original list all of the cars I quote were available in the European market. Maybe not all in Ireland, but certainly the UK. If Universal Honda elect not to import them here doesn't mean that they are no homogenised.

A JDM car is exactly that - Japanese Domestic Market. Configured optimally for that market.

Actually the DC2 ITR was also dropped from the Euro DM .... its just getting worse!

MarkN

Vegeta wrote: »

I was calling a spade a spade, someone was spouting sh1te and I called them on it.

Nobody was spouting sh1te as you put it - you just kept coming back with the same weak argument.

Totally different day, different tyres, that alone could be enough to make a car have different lap times. You're certainly not "calling a spade a spade" by saying that two cars tested over a year apart, at different times of the year can be taken as fact. Even the humidity in the air will effect the turbo in the GTI!

The ONLY way for you to be "calling a spade a spade" is just have the two cars raced on the track either by equally matched drivers or one after the other.

JHMEG

jayok wrote: »

Actually the DC2 ITR was also dropped from the Euro DM .... its just getting worse!

Just to be clear: I'm don't disagree with you.. I just don't see it as bad as you do, as I would have no problem getting a JDM model if it took my fancy.

jayok

JHMEG wrote: »

Just to be clear: I'm don't disagree with you.. I just don't see it as bad as you do, as I would have no problem getting a JDM model if it took my fancy.

And I wouldn't fancy a JDM one (although the DC5 is stunning). It's not so much that you can import them is the issue as the fact that Honda themselves don't specifically make them available in the Euro DM. While its possible to personally undertake anything (e.g. did you see the guy in the US who dropped a K24 engine from a TSX into a EP2 Civic yee haa ) the strategy taken by the manufacturer says a lot.

Honda's decision by 2008 (if the S2000 is dropped) is to only have one performance car in the product list for the EDM is absymal. For a company that prides itself on Racing and Innovation this sends a pretty poor message.

The Civic Type R, while not a bad car, really isn't anything cutting edge. Its a rehashed package offering less in terms of technology than its EP3 daddy (torsion beam anyone?). The Golf GTI (as an example product) at least offered DSG, improved torque and BHP from its predecessor.

E92

C_Breeze wrote: »

...im sure anybody would take it over your old rust bucket 91 xsi anyway

As I recall JHMEG said he drives a 1.6 Civic VTi on another thread recently.

I think people have gone a bit mad about the review about the CTR on Sunday night. The reason JC didn't like it is because it has exactly 1 extra bhp over its predecessor(even though its heavier than the old one), it has a cheaper design of rear suspension(a type exclusive to Euro spec Civics(torsion beam I think he said), FWIW the JDM and US spec Civics still have double wishbones at the back, and so does the saloon because the saloon is really a JDM/USDM car) and he said this made the car a good deal less fun to drive as a result compared to the old CTR which like all Civics hitherto had IRS (Independent Rear Suspension) irrespective of wher it was being sold. And he said the ride is meant to be poor too.

Of course even though I would be a big fan of Jeremy Clarkson, it doesn't mean that whenever he does that supplement every year for the Sunday Times(the Good Car Bad Car one) that the CTR won't all of a sudden make it to the title of best hot hatch. I remeber him slating the E60 530d when it came out and how slow the 3.0 litre diesel with 218 bhp was and how any petrol model in the E60 range would have been quicker, and then when the Good Car Bad Car came out, what does he choose to be the best Exec car? None other than the E60 530d!

C_Breeze

JHMEG wrote: »

@C_Breeze, yeah, whatever, took 3 ads and how many months to shift it... zzzz....

Good comeback :rolleyes:


And for the record because i like proving you wrong , It was two adverts.ie ads and nowhere else, as i wasnt really pushed on selling it - then when i got my MX-3 and decided i would rather keep that than the honda - i put 1 ad in Carzone aswell as a third ad in adverts and wouldnt you know it - It sold to the 1st person that came to view it!