Car tax fine on Irish reg in Nortern Ireland

macmad

Hi all,
I was recently driving in Nortern Ireland and I was fined by the authorities up there for not having car tax on a southern reg car.

I am from and live in Dublin and recently bought a second hand car (Irish reg) from a dealer in dublin. The dealer sent of the change of ownership documents to the vehicle registration unit in Shannon. I was unable to tax the car until I was the registered owner and this takes a few weeks to process. I asked a Garda if I was able to drive the car and he said they usually give about 6 weeks grace during change of ownership while the details were processed. It was during this period that I was driving up north and I was stopped by the PSNI and some officials from the norths motor licencing office who gave me a heafty fine of about €300 (the fine in the republic is €65!!). They say they have access to the souths database. they had no interest in the fact that I just bought the car. I have asked a few Garda including a traffic corp guard and they didn't know of any such arrangement. I wrote letters to the motor tax office but of course no response. After all how can a the UK government fine me for not paying an Irish tax.

Has anyone had a similar experience or know of any such arrangement. any info would be appreciated

drdre

Ive never heard of this before.I drove in ireland without tax for 2 month as there was a delay in my new log book coming.Guards stopped me 3 times and i told them my story and they let me off.the northern ireland story is abit weird.

Anan1

To answer your first question, the six week grace period, although widespread, has no standing in law. Legally, you cannot drive the car until you have a valid tax disc. Regarding your second point, the UK fine for not paying a ROI tax, I really don't know. I'd investigate further, see if you can get the PSNI to show you in writing that it is illegal to drive a southern-registered car in the North without valid tax.

Vikings

That surely cant be right. Who are you meant to pay the fine to?

yayamark

To the op, did u pay this fine on the spot or was it sent out to you in the post?

In the rep the gardai do not bring owners of n.i. reg cars to court.

The offence of not paying car tax is an offence under the finace act. A n.i. reg car will and cannot pay tax to the republic. The vehicle maybe siezed under the finance act and a fine issued.

I'd be sceptial of what the psni were at here, any more info?

snaps

I hope you havent paid, It sounds a bit fishy!

Sizzler

AMB.

Let them whistle for the fine

2stageturbo

Sizzler wrote: »

AMB.

Let them whistle for the fine

Sounds right to me.
There is no way they can get you if your from the south afaik.;)
Some cheeky psni with a grudge against SOUTHERN drivers if you know what i mean.

macmad

Thanks for the support everyone!!
I had to pay the fine on the spot or they were taking the car. They even had a tow truck waiting. I was aware it not being totally legal to drive without tax but it seems to be accepted that it is ok to do in this in between time. To tell you the truth if a got the fine down here I would pay the €65 and move on...but €300 by the northern Ireland gov is just crazy. I will fight this all the way to the High court!!

Stephen

Good for you. Do they have some kind of a system for appealing the fines in NI?

Bogger77

i think you'll find that you're caught fairly.

To drive a car in another country, than it's home country, the car needs to be 100% legal to drive in its home country. If a country requires road fund/road tax, this must be paid, or the vehicle is not legal to drive anywhere, in the EU, inc the home country.

mick.fr

As far as I know the only thing you need to drive your car abroad, eg EU is a certificate of ownership of the vehicle and a euro insurance (Green paper).
I do not see how come another police force could fine you for not having an Irish motor tax on your screen.
Unless there is a new EU regulation? For once the English might use it :-)

Consult a solicitor in NI if you can.
I also hope for you they gave you a receipt for this.

galwaytt

Bogger - that is incorrect. It is irrelevent whether your car is taxed, or not. What about states where there is no tax?

That was someone just trying it on - you should contact the Council in NI under whom you were ticketed, a solicitor, and Citizen's advice bureau.

testicle

macmad wrote: »

Thanks for the support everyone!!
I had to pay the fine on the spot or they were taking the car. They even had a tow truck waiting. I was aware it not being totally legal to drive without tax but it seems to be accepted that it is ok to do in this in between time. To tell you the truth if a got the fine down here I would pay the €65 and move on...but €300 by the northern Ireland gov is just crazy. I will fight this all the way to the High court!!

Sounds like the $paramilitary_organisation on a cash making spree... The penalty for no tax cert in the UK is £80, not the 300 you were asked to pay!

lynchie

macmad wrote: »

Thanks for the support everyone!!
I had to pay the fine on the spot or they were taking the car. They even had a tow truck waiting. I was aware it not being totally legal to drive without tax but it seems to be accepted that it is ok to do in this in between time. To tell you the truth if a got the fine down here I would pay the €65 and move on...but €300 by the northern Ireland gov is just crazy. I will fight this all the way to the High court!!

Did you get a receipt for monies paid? I fail to see how they can force you to pay 300 euro either? Surely the fine should have been in sterling.

what_car

macmad wrote: »

Thanks for the support everyone!!
I had to pay the fine on the spot or they were taking the car. They even had a tow truck waiting. I was aware it not being totally legal to drive without tax but it seems to be accepted that it is ok to do in this in between time. To tell you the truth if a got the fine down here I would pay the €65 and move on...but €300 by the northern Ireland gov is just crazy. I will fight this all the way to the High court!!

fekers! :mad::mad: were you close to the border at the time?
thats unreal.. i would have told them where to go! :mad::mad:

btw do you know what the costs of the high court are?:p

patrickc

fight this as far as you can, as was said that's not the proper fine so sounds dodgy.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10021514

macmad

hey,
I am very impressed by the outrage shown by everyone. Just to clear up a few things from above, the fine was £200 which is about €300. I think €296 showed up on my credit card (yes they take credit cards at the scene!).

£120 was refundable if I showed my tax cert within 14 days at my local tax office. The Northern Ireland tax man at the scene said I can show this at my local office in the south and I will get my refund. I said I would be unable to tax my car within 14 days, he said "hard luck". Now, luckily the nice lady at the Irish tax office managed to tax my car within the 14 days but when I said I wanted to present my tax disc as described by the NI tax man, she just laughed and said that "they can't do that". I then went to the Garda office and presented my tax cert, thinking that maybe they handle this down south. Garda laughs and says, "they can't do that". (THIS IS NOT A JOKE, and it gets worse). I then had to drive to the Norths tax office head office in Coleraine, that is right up the top (4 hour drive).

The man there was very nice. I show him my tax cert, he looks confused and says "I didn't think we can do that". he says that if I give him my reg he will look on the system. I tell him my reg (an Irish reg). He says "Sorry the system cant handle Irish regs"!!!! 30 minutes later after going around in circles I get a receipt showing a presented my tax cert, confirmation they took my money, but no promise to get back the £120 owed to me. 2 weeks later a got the £120 back on my credit card. Easy!

All I really want to know is: can they fine me? why does the Republics tax office or Garda know nothing about it??? I am not bothered about the fine; I'm just interested in knowing what the story is

Bogger77

Yes, they can fine you. Your car wasn't legal to be on the road. The grace period informally allowed down here, is just cos the system works slowly. By law, you cannot drive or park on public roads without valid road tax being paid. If you were stopped for speeding, for example, they could add not displaying road tax to the charges. Personally, if buying second from garage, I'd get them to tax it for me, with the off road section signed by previous, if even for only 3 months. As I do cross the border, and head over to GB quite often, I like to ensure my car's fully kosher.

I'm pretty sure all EU countries, have a road fund/road tax/annual charge. if it's out, and they want to, you can be fined. As you're non resident, they charge you on the spot, the French do it for speeding tickets, and in this case they charged you for not having road tax/road fund displayed. The 120stg extra was a bail bond amount to ensure that you'd make your car legal.

So yes, they can impound your car, and crush it for no road tax, although they aren't your home country. The gardai/customs can do the same down here for NI/UK drivers.

Tough, but fair enough, as I bet there's quiet a few southern reg's driving in the North that don't know what a road tax disc looks like.

Silvera

Interesting topic ....I didnt know a motorist from the republic could be fined for no tax in the north?! ....though when you think about it a bit more I suppose It kinda makes some sense.

As regards other countries position re road tax, I know that, for example -

Jersey abolished road tax in 1994 - vehicles there only display insurance discs ......similar to our insurance discs.

Victor

macmad wrote: »

I am very impressed by the outrage shown by everyone. Just to clear up a few things from above, the fine was £200 which is about €300. I think €296 showed up on my credit card (yes they take credit cards at the scene!).

This may have been Police Bail, not a fine.

Alun

Bogger77 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure all EU countries, have a road fund/road tax/annual charge.

I'm sure they do, but are the authorities in every EU country in a position to be able to check it given the multitude of different forms, languages etc. ? And then there are countries who do have such a charge, but don't have any bits of paper or other things on the vehicle itself to prove it's been paid, such as Holland. It's not like insurance, or driving licences where there is a standardised document such as a green card, or a standard model EU licence.

Bogger77

Silvera wrote: »

As regards other countries position re road tax, I know that, for example -

Jersey abolished road tax in 1994 - vehicles there only display insurance discs ......similar to our insurance discs.

Jersey not in the EU

the more I think about it, it's not an EU reg, but some other international convention, that allows drivers to cross borders on holidays with their cars.

Type 17

Bogger77 wrote: »

Jersey not in the EU

the more I think about it, it's not an EU reg, but some other international convention, that allows drivers to cross borders on holidays with their cars.

Google says:

United nations 1949 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic

http://www.6towns.com/driving/UNconv.html

jimmycrackcorm

The tax one is a new one to me. I've known people who got on the spot fines for speeding in N.I. and had to pay the extra amount as police bail. I even know someone who didn't have the cash or cards on them and had to spend a few hours in Strand road plice station until someone from their family arrived in with the money. At least too they do take credit cards.

They don't have access to the vehicle tax databases in the south as I know from driving a NI car and getting away with skipping parking fines down south because a parking warden told me that it costs €60 for the local authorities herre to do a registration search in the UK making it unworthwhile.

craichoe

Bogger77 wrote: »

Yes, they can fine you. Your car wasn't legal to be on the road. The grace period informally allowed down here, is just cos the system works slowly. By law, you cannot drive or park on public roads without valid road tax being paid. If you were stopped for speeding, for example, they could add not displaying road tax to the charges. Personally, if buying second from garage, I'd get them to tax it for me, with the off road section signed by previous, if even for only 3 months. As I do cross the border, and head over to GB quite often, I like to ensure my car's fully kosher.

I'm pretty sure all EU countries, have a road fund/road tax/annual charge. if it's out, and they want to, you can be fined. As you're non resident, they charge you on the spot, the French do it for speeding tickets, and in this case they charged you for not having road tax/road fund displayed. The 120stg extra was a bail bond amount to ensure that you'd make your car legal.

So yes, they can impound your car, and crush it for no road tax, although they aren't your home country. The gardai/customs can do the same down here for NI/UK drivers.

Tough, but fair enough, as I bet there's quiet a few southern reg's driving in the North that don't know what a road tax disc looks like.

No, this is wrong, just plain wrong. I've been in the Netherlands for a month now and checked this out with the Politie and Local Tax Office (Centraal Bureau Motorrijtuigen-belasting)

As long as my car is registered in Ireland and has an Irish registration they cannot issue fines for Road Tax as it is not registered in the Netherlands. They also cannot issue fines on the Irish Revenues behalf.

Beyond that they have absolutely no way to check if you have your tax paid up, they don't even have disks on the window, its all on the registration that they stick into a handheld computer in the car and see if you have anything unpaid.

The standard thing if you are living for a 6 month period (for example) out of the state is to back pay your road tax, although technically you can declare it off the road since you were not driving in the Irish state. Or alternatively declare the car has been permanently exported and register it in your new state if staying there permanently.

The point here is, one country cannot issue their fines for tax on a foreign car as it is not registered with the tax authority in that country.

The requirement here is:

1. Third Party Insurance
2. A License for the Vehicle your Driving
3. Beam benders
4. First Aid Kit and Luminous Jacker + Triangle in the boot
5. Vehicle has to be roadworthy upon visual inspection (tyre thread, lights working, brakes etc)

Baradonna

I think they can't possibly fine you for not paying tax in the republic... no matter what tax it is.... you have an Irish driving license issued by the Irish government which is recognised internationally... and you are fully insured to drive the car in the north as most policies in the south also cover the north

as for tax, thats the one thing the EU hasn't managed to get their hands on yet and the last time i checked we got our independence from the UK a long time ago!

Type 17

I would give the Citizens Advice Bureau in NI a call, to see what the legal situation is - http://www.citizensadvice.co.uk/


If the law in NI says that you should not have been fined, I would make a complaint to the PSNI Ombudsman - http://www.policeombudsman.org/