Question about being stopped re: VRT

pow wow

I was just wondering if driving a Northern registered car in the Republic and you're stopped at a customs check etc., how are you supposed to prove that you're on holiday/aren't a resident of the ROI dodging VRT? Do they ask you for documents or do they go on where your licence was issued or something else?

craichoe

ellscurr wrote: »

I was just wondering if driving a Northern registered car in the Republic and you're stopped at a customs check etc., how are you supposed to prove that you're on holiday/aren't a resident of the ROI dodging VRT? Do they ask you for documents or do they go on where your licence was issued or something else?

Show them your Vehicle Registration Certificate, this will prove your car is registered to whereever its supposed to be.

MercMad

Whether you are Irish or not if you drive in the Republic you need to have your drivers licence with you. This should prove where you are a resident, and if you are a resident of the Republic you cannot drive a foreign reg'd vehicle !

babyguinnessfan

Happened to a friend of mine;- the car was seized there and then. Out you hop and find a taxi for yourself.

craichoe

MercMad wrote: »

Whether you are Irish or not if you drive in the Republic you need to have your drivers licence with you. This should prove where you are a resident, and if you are a resident of the Republic you cannot drive a foreign reg'd vehicle !

Driving License does not prove residency status.

I'm driving on and Irish license in Holland and its Perfectly legal. Same as if you have a UK License in Ireland or German in Ireland.

an EU License is just that, usuable anywhere in the EU.

VRT and Motor Tax is about where the Vehicle is registered for Tax, not you.

MercMad

craichoe wrote: »

Driving License does not prove residency status.

I'm driving on and Irish license in Holland and its Perfectly legal. Same as if you have a UK License in Ireland or German in Ireland.

an EU License is just that, usuable anywhere in the EU.

VRT and Motor Tax is about where the Vehicle is registered for Tax, not you.

......yes....... hence I said "should" prove, but you'll find that the Gardai tend to ask you leading questions, i.e "Is this your car?" "Where are you travelling from ?" "Where do you live?" etc....

The licence thing is really only an identifier and your status as a resident IS key in establishing whether VRT is due or not !

Matt Simis

craichoe wrote: »

Show them your Vehicle Registration Certificate, this will prove your car is registered to whereever its supposed to be.

Plenty of people, myself included, have driven in the UK without having a VRC (UK V5 form presumably?) with them. It doesnt even seem safe to be driving around with the V5 on you (car could be stolen and reregistered "legally"!). That cannot be the expectation.

What happens if you are driving a foreign car registered to someone else (which you cant prove "then and there") in the Republic? Is this against the law too? Since the owner isnt a resident and the car would not ordinarily be on Irish roads, I cant see how the person merely driving it could be done for dodging VRT.

I just cant imagine driving in any other (EU) country and being pulled out of a car on the whim of some customs guy presuming you didnt get pulled for dangerous driving or something.

C_Breeze

MercMad wrote: »

......yes....... hence I said "should" prove, but you'll find that the Gardai tend to ask you leading questions, i.e "Is this your car?" "Where are you travelling from ?" "Where do you live?" etc....

The licence thing is really only an identifier and your status as a resident IS key in establishing whether VRT is due or not !

Yeah i have noticed they do tend to ask all these lead-up questions.

Assuming you are legal, I wonder what would happen if you were to just ingonre their question as if its not any of their business (which it isnt) and just show them V5 with your name and UK address and then just drive off.

I have a friend with an M3 from belfast that comes down here for the odd weekend and is always getting hassle of the guards when he's down.

They are very narky and impolite - it would help if they could be a bit more curteous when dealing with VRT issues instead of treating you like you've just burnt a family house down - I know from first hand experience when i was driving on UK plates before i paid my VRT

martin1016

There were five cars seized in Swords recently (single 8am checkpoint from one housing estate) for non compliance with VRT. Big crackdown on vehicles registered as commercials to avoid VRT and then putting the rear seats back in.

If you live in the republic your car must be registered here, hence VRT paid. UK companies with an Irish sales guy on the road must also have Irish registered cars - UK ones could be seized.

VRT is not payable by someone that has moved to Ireland and owned their car for 6 months or so in another country but they cannot sell the car for a specified amount of time after they register here.

There is a big crack down on this at the moment with regular random checkpoints - mainly due to three segmenst - the commercial aspect above, people buying cars in the UK and not registering here quickly enough and also to tighten up on safety standards of foreign nationals and the quality of cars that they are bringing over and driving here.

neacy69

What about if I lived on the south and got my Irish Licence then moved to the north to live but continued working in the south. Then I would have a UK car with an Irish driving licence. Would I just need the V5 document with my name and address in the north? would I have problems because of the Irish licence?

martin1016

I would imagine that you should have exchanged the southern License for a northern one to comply with the NI requirements.

Plus no harm in having some bills and possibly an old bank statement in the car but I would not have the V5. The real proof of residence is where you pay your taxes.

Tony Danza

martin1016 wrote: »

There were five cars seized in Swords recently (single 8am checkpoint from one housing estate) for non compliance with VRT. Big crackdown on vehicles registered as commercials to avoid VRT and then putting the rear seats back in.

If you live in the republic your car must be registered here, hence VRT paid. UK companies with an Irish sales guy on the road must also have Irish registered cars - UK ones could be seized.

VRT is not payable by someone that has moved to Ireland and owned their car for 6 months or so in another country but they cannot sell the car for a specified amount of time after they register here.

There is a big crack down on this at the moment with regular random checkpoints - mainly due to three segmenst - the commercial aspect above, people buying cars in the UK and not registering here quickly enough and also to tighten up on safety standards of foreign nationals and the quality of cars that they are bringing over and driving here.

That's nice. What did this have to do with the topic?


I don't know what I'm talking about here, but I presume that considering a Northern Reg car doesn't display an insurance disk, that they are to hold some sort of documentation about their insurance that would have their address on it?? Anybody able to confirm/deny that?

I know this isn't exactly a legal way of doing things, but from what I've seen around Dundalk (where I'm from) there's loads of NI reg cars, it seems fairly easy to spot the obvious ones that are VRT dodging (tax disk out or none, no MOT).

martin1016

Tony - I apologize, I re-read to OP and just side tracked as I went down the thread with the customs and VRT etc as I have a pet hate with the whole system. I appreciate now that the response I gave was not a direct answer to the original question, but more background info as to why the checks were happening.

As I understand it and this from an employee of ours in NI, he is legally required to carry his drivers license with him at all times in the car. This is his proof of residence, he has never had any hassle and is regularly down south on business for us with his car. We are a registered employer in NI and all income taxes and social insurance issues are paid into NI.

Proof of residence is dictated by revenue and determines where your taxes are paid. If you reside in Ireland all Irish taxes are applicable. I did a quick search on Revenue and heres what I found:

Residence - Individual
An individual will be regarded as being resident in Ireland for a tax year if s/he:
1) spends 183 days or more in the State in that tax year;
(135 days for the “short tax year” 6 April 2001 to 31 December 20011); or
2) has a combined presence of 280 days in the State, taking into account the number of days spent in the State in that tax year together with the number of days spent in the State in the preceding year. (280 days is reduced to 244 days in respect of the combined tax years, commencing on 6 April 2000 and 6 April 2001, and those commencing on 6 April 2001 and 1 January 2002.)

So to answer the question -
The individual is required to show that they are a non resident and thus not liable to the taxes levied by the state. The registraton of the car is not proof of where the owner / driver resides.

Again sorry if I went off topic

mick.fr

martin1016 wrote: »

UK companies with an Irish sales guy on the road must also have Irish registered cars - UK ones could be seized.

Not true, if the car belongs to the English company, there is absolutely no obligation to register the car here.

martin1016 wrote: »

VRT is not payable by someone that has moved to Ireland and owned their car for 6 months or so in another country but they cannot sell the car for a specified amount of time after they register here.

Yeah they can't sell it for one year.

martin1016 wrote: »

There is a big crack down on this at the moment with regular random checkpoints - mainly due to three segmenst - the commercial aspect above, people buying cars in the UK and not registering here quickly enough and also to tighten up on safety standards of foreign nationals and the quality of cars that they are bringing over and driving here.

Don't make me laugh, Irish safety standards regarding road safety, driving license are from the lowest in Europe. Not difficult to catch that on the roads.

mick.fr

craichoe wrote: »

VRT and Motor Tax is about where the Vehicle is registered for Tax, not you.

Not exactly true, it applies to the individual or company that owns the vehicle and its usual place of residence (Over 180 days per year).
If you are a Swiss national and you own a car and live in Ireland, it has to be registered in Ireland.

craichoe

MercMad wrote: »

Whether you are Irish or not if you drive in the Republic you need to have your drivers licence with you. This should prove where you are a resident, and if you are a resident of the Republic you cannot drive a foreign reg'd vehicle !

Your driving license proves NOTHING
You do not have to change your license from UK to Irish if your resident in Ireland.

Even most EU Countries will not accept a Full Irish driving license as a form of Identification for residency. You either need a Passport or a ID Card that proves residency.

Theres LOADS of people with UK Licenses living in Ireland for the last 10 - 20 years with a UK License, Insured and driving on it, with no problems what so ever.

Residency is something completely different.

i.e. I pay tax in Holland but i am not a resident, that occurs 6 months after i register with the local city hall. I am still an Irish resident as i lived there for more than six months and haven't gone beyond that amount of time in Holland yet.

ambro25

Simple question for any legal heads in here: who has the burden of proof, at the roadside? The guards to prove you're resident, or you to prove you're not?

As, taking the hypothetical case of a UK person (with UK license and passport) driving a UK car fresh from the ferry on a weekly tour of the local sights, you can't really expect the notional tourist to keep bank statements or electricity bills in their car, can you? :rolleyes:

cee_jay

martin1016 wrote: »

I would imagine that you should have exchanged the southern License for a northern one to comply with the NI requirements.

Plus no harm in having some bills and possibly an old bank statement in the car but I would not have the V5. The real proof of residence is where you pay your taxes.

I am resident in Scotland and I don't have to change my Republic of Ireland license to comply with anything - its an EU licence so can drive with it over here forever if I wish.
I think its a good question by the OP - I have an Irish licence, Irish accent, family lives in Limerick, if I were to get the ferry back to Ireland instead of flying, and was stopped by customs, would they just take my word that I was not resident in the country?
Tbh I wouldn't like to have an old bank statement in my car in case it was stolen or broken into. And I wouldn't keep my Reg Cert either.

martin1016

Mick

I personally know an Irish sales rep that had his UK registered car targeted by customs a few years back. The company ended up purchasing and Irish car, in the end. I do know another UK employer that got away with it for 2 years but when they changed vehicles they bought Irish registered. I am not a legal expert and am open to correction if there is a loophole, but I know of these two examples as fact.

I have also looked into leasing / long term rental NI cars for the sales and service guys that we have on the road, changing them in under a year and the infomation I could gather made that approach to risky - even with us as a registered employer in NI.

As for road safety - I hear you but if you look at some of the cars on foreign plates, not NI or UK, some of them are really poor. Many german cars that are in serious accidents are sold to PL, LT etc, repaired and put on the road. Personally I think that making them register and complete the NCT with all its faults is better than no test at all. Its not as if they have to pay VRT to register them so why not comply with the same rules that we have to especially as they are earning a living here.

craichoe

martin1016 wrote: »

Mick

I personally know an Irish sales rep that had his UK registered car targeted by customs a few years back. The company ended up purchasing and Irish car, in the end. I do know another UK employer that got away with it for 2 years but when they changed vehicles they bought Irish registered. I am not a legal expert and am open to correction if there is a loophole, but I know of these two examples as fact.

I have also looked into leasing / long term rental NI cars for the sales and service guys that we have on the road, changing them in under a year and the infomation I could gather made that approach to risky - even with us as a registered employer in NI.

As for road safety - I hear you but if you look at some of the cars on foreign plates, not NI or UK, some of them are really poor. Many german cars that are in serious accidents are sold to PL, LT etc, repaired and put on the road. Personally I think that making them register and complete the NCT with all its faults is better than no test at all. Its not as if they have to pay VRT to register them so why not comply with the same rules that we have to especially as they are earning a living here.

Those rules do apply, but if you are out of the country within the six month period you get another six months. The trouble is proving it. I know of a Dutch guy with a Dutch registered car driving up north every six months to get a speeding ticket so he could present it to the revenue as proof he was out of the country.

Its a ridiculous state of affairs

pow wow

cAr0l wrote: »

I am resident in Scotland and I don't have to change my Republic of Ireland license to comply with anything - its an EU licence so can drive with it over here forever if I wish.
I think its a good question by the OP - I have an Irish licence, Irish accent, family lives in Limerick, if I were to get the ferry back to Ireland instead of flying, and was stopped by customs, would they just take my word that I was not resident in the country?Tbh I wouldn't like to have an old bank statement in my car in case it was stolen or broken into. And I wouldn't keep my Reg Cert either.

That's exactly why I am asking the question. I have lived in the UK for 5 yrs (working), NI for 2.5 (college) but have an Irish licence and an Irish accent. I was wondering if I'm stopped when I'm home for Xmas will they take my word for it or am I required/advised to carry stuff with me proving I don't live in Ireland. The Revenue Commissioners know I'm not an Irish reisdent but I can't imagine the roadside Gardai have access to Revenue systems.

Also it is strongly advised not to carry the V5 in the car in case it is stolen.

ambro25

ellscurr wrote: »

Also it is strongly advised not to carry the V5 in the car in case it is stolen.

But over here, it is strongly advised to carry the V5 in the car, along with driving license, passport and original insurance cert (preferably all at same UK address), to have a chance of appearing 'legit enough' to the roadside numpties (well, not all are... but a fair few are).

'Tis permanent problem for us, me being resident but my wife not being resident (V5's in her name at our UK address, same as her license & passport). We always have our driving license and insurance cert as a matter of course, accumulated ferry receipts to boot, V5 and passport since we must, but this permanent state of suspicion (presumed guilty on the spot) is deplorable.

pow wow

ambro25 wrote: »

But over here, it is strongly advised to carry the V5 in the car, along with driving license, passport and original insurance cert (preferably all at same UK address), to have a chance of appearing 'legit enough' to the roadside numpties (well, not all are... but a fair few are).

'Tis permanent problem for us, me being resident but my wife not being resident (V5's in her name at our UK address, same as her license & passport). We always have our driving license and insurance cert as a matter of course, and accumulated ferry receipts to boot, but this permanent state of suspicion (presumed guilty on the spot) is deplorable.

Oh I'm not disagreeing with carrying it if necessary, just saying that it's really ill-advised according to 'experts' in the newspapers etc.m

hargo

The customs and Gardai normally will make their decision on the roadside based on what information is given to them and whether it is credible. If they feel they are being told porkies then they have the power to detain a foreign registered vehicle for up to 28 days for investigation. It is up to you to prove your status!! And driving your mates car is a definate no no. Also customs officials are on a reward system so if you are driving a high value car you better be a good talker.

Matt Simis

hargo wrote:

It is up to you to prove your status!! And driving your mates car is a definate no no. Also customs officials are on a reward system so if you are driving a high value car you better be a good talker.

If you have insurance or coverage on someone else's car (foreign reg), then why cant you drive it temporally, legally?

ambro25

hargo wrote: »

The customs and Gardai normally will make their decision on the roadside based on what information is given to them and whether it is credible. If they feel they are being told porkies then they have the power to detain a foreign registered vehicle for up to 28 days for investigation. It is up to you to prove your status!! And driving your mates car is a definate no no. Also customs officials are on a reward system so if you are driving a high value car you better be a good talker.

Whilst I agree fully with powers vested in Officers in order to curb criminal activities (drugs, contraband and the like), it's a bit much for it to extend all the way to a presumptiom of guilt ("It is up to you to prove your status!") for something as benign as VRT.

Surely it should be up to their investigation to determine your status, not the reverse? To my mind (and please do correct me if I'm wrong), criminals are innocent until Customs/Gards prove otherwise (whereby they seize this-that-the other for investigative purposes and obtaining this 'proof' through their ensuing investigations), whereas this would make the average, intimidated tourist guilty on the spot? can't be right.

hargo wrote: »

Also customs officials are on a reward system.

But is it balanced? As in - reward (+€) for nabbing rightfully, punishment (-€) for nabbing wrongfully? I'll not let people think I'm that naive and answer my own question: most probably not, whereby of course it's likely to be abused left, right and center...

craichoe

ambro25 wrote: »

Whilst I agree fully with powers vested in Officers in order to curb criminal activities (drugs, contraband and the like), it's a bit much for it to extend all the way to a presumptiom of guilt ("It is up to you to prove your status!") for something as benign as VRT.

Surely it should be up to their investigation to determine your status, not the reverse? To my mind (and please do correct me if I'm wrong), criminals are innocent until Customs/Gards prove otherwise (whereby they seize this-that-the other for investigative purposes and obtaining this 'proof' through their ensuing investigations), whereas this would make the average, intimidated tourist guilty on the spot? can't be right.



But is it balanced? As in - reward (+€) for nabbing rightfully, punishment (-€) for nabbing wrongfully? I'll not let people think I'm that naive and answer my own question: most probably not, whereby of course it's likely to be abused left, right and center...

Unfortunatly not, its up to you to prove to them thats the case. Customs have more power to seize goods than the Gardai, although they still need their assistance to administer it.